2007 Vtec starting problems

[TomVfr]

Hi everyone, recently joined the forum and finding reading through the threads is greatly improving my knowledge about VFR problems and how to go about solving them 👍

I owned a 2002 vtec previously which was in excellent condition, I upgraded the R/R to a mosfet, and the bike ran great, regret selling it now.

 

So, onto my current problem and hopefully some of you helpful members can guide me gently through the process of getting this bike running nicely.

 

Info- Bike 2007 non abs, UK model

Bought recently so unknown history of any issues.

Mileage 35k

Had a big service last July - valve clearances, throttle bodies sync, new spark plugs, new air filter, oil, filter, throttle cables, coolant.

Since that service it has covered around 3K miles (not by me). Not sure if bike has been sitting but the dealer did say to come for a test ride so I assume it was in running condition while at their shop.

Has had a replacement Reg/rec at some point looking at the newish condition of the yellow and red/ green wiring and connector blocks coming off the R/R.

Has a Heal Tech gear indicator.

Got the bike at a low price due to it being poor cosmetically (red faded paintwork) but I bought it due to it having the recent big service and seeming like a good value buy.

 

Bike was delivered to me. Pressing the starter button the bike really, really struggled to get started, had to give it some throttle to get it going, was mis firing on a cylinder, after 30 secs of running it then fired on all fours, and then as the engine warmed the revs settled and I let it run for 10/15 mins to get it up to temp and see if the fans would start- they did. Throttle response seemed fine but overall a very rough start compared to how my 2002 used to start up. Switched off engine. Press starter, starts first time. 

3 days later, try to start, engine cranks over but just will not start up. Fuel pump primes. Smells rich.

 

3 day later again, charge battery over night, still won’t start. Check battery voltage 12.5v off. 12v with ignition and lights on. 10.5v-11.5v when pressing starter button.

 

Plugged in service jumper 

Got these flashes-

1
2
9

 

I assume that these stored faults were from when the bike was serviced last year.

 

Cleared/reset faults. 
 

Now get a solid red light with jumper cable in - I am going to try and reset the faults again later today, see if it remains / disconnect a different sensor to get a different fault.

No jumper lead - FI light turns on at ignition then off after fuel pumped

Took off fairings, cleaned connector blocks with spray and toothbrush.

Orange block with all the green ground above the blue and grey blocks top left seemed clean - is there another of these ground blocks on my 2007 harness to check? Above the chain guard?

The red starter solenoid cover, red wire has been hot at some point and melted a small hole. Have cleaned and refitted for now. And ordered a replacement red cover and the female connectors.

Removed all spark plugs, dark and wet, Cleaned, checked for spark holding against metal part- good spark.

 

Hinged up fuel tank- difficult as dealer put a full tank of fuel in. Visually checked air box and fuel hoses, all look ok and to be standard - no pair delete, snorkel present.

 

Checked air filter, looks ok, but in the air box rear right there is some fluids that have sprayed in there.

 

Tried to start- managed to get it firing for about 10 seconds with throttle but that was all. After several attempts at starting the battery then just loses its “umph” and the dash starts to flash off. I know I shouldn’t need to use any throttle to get it to start, and i’m left with a smell of petrol, although none ever dripping on the floor.
 

Next I plan to look at the fuel injectors, take them off, spray thru with carb cleaner. I saw on YouTube a mechanic using a small 9v battery to test they click open-do this as well?

 

Please advise what else I should be looking into 😇

I’m not a mechanic but just trying to work through this methodically.

 

Is it worth buying a new battery now? I live in a rural area so not sure about getting it load checked anywhere local.

 

I’ll try taking some photo to liven up this thread too!

 

Hope you all have an excellent weekend!  🏍️💨

 

 

 

 

[Grum]

Hi Tom, welcome.

Nice detailed write up.

 

- The stored historical codes you had relate to the MAP and IAT sensors, they would have stored a fault code if the Starter Valves had been synched at some stage, as these sensors would have been unplugged during the synch process. The important thing is you have no current active fault code being displayed (Sidestand needs to be in down position for fault codes to display- if there are any).

- Your fuel smell, difficult starting and poor running might be caused by a leaky injector or two, or a ruptured Fuel Pressure Regulator diaphragm which will dump raw fuel into cylinders 3 and 4 via the vaccumm hoses. Check the vaccumm hoses are dry and no fuel dripping from the FPV vaccumm connections.

- As for your battery if it charges ok runs the headlights and offers a few good cranks of the Starter with normal good cranking speed it could be OK. Your Off, On and cranking voltage seem normal. But if you're unaware of it age, or health and not able to have it load checked, then it might be worth replacing.

- The Orange Ground block you're referring to above the chain guard is for the 5gen.

 

Good Luck.

 

[TomVfr]

Hi Grum,

thank you so much for your advice! I’ve noticed you’re the go-to expert for problem solving here 👍

 

to update-

i took off the airbox, inside in the rear right side there was some white blobs coming from the larger pipe off the top of the engine, and spray too. Please see photo. Is this of concern?

 

I removed the vacuum pipe from the Fuel Pressure Regulator and it was dry as per photo. I also turned on the ignition, the fuel pump made the priming sound, no fuel came out of the Fuel Pressure Regulator so is it safe to say that the diaphragm is intact and not the problem? Unless there is another hose to check?

 

I did the jumper fault codes and got error flashes of 1 & 9 - as the airbox is off.

 

Also attached is a photo of an extra red wire from the battery, think it goes to a red and white(?) wire near to the starter solenoid. Has a 30 amp small fuse in-line- any ideas why this is here?

 

As for the adjustment screws (see photo) I noticed that the front right adjuster screw is smaller than the other 3- has it been broken or is this correct? I don’t have a 4 way vacuum balancing tool to make any adjustments here so won’t be doing anything with them. They are for ensuring that all four get equal amounts of fuel right?

 

Tomorrow I plan to attempt to remove the fuel rail, remove the injectors and blow carb cleaner thru them. With the injectors - how do I see if they are leaking- how do I check for a leak, is it a broken o ring seal or do they crack or something?

 

 

 

 

[Terry]

I will stay in my lane and comment on what I know about, and leave the electrickery to Grum.

The oily stuff in the airbox is normal, just a bit of oil mist blown from all the wrhirling bits in the crankcase up through the breather hose to the airbox. The white stuff will be some condensation that has made it to the airbox. If the bike hasn't been run for a while this might be expected. If the bike has been running regularly then this would be unusual.

The odd man out starter valve is the  non-adjustable reference valve. The other three get adjusted to match this one. The SV's control the flow of air into the motor at idle; more air = faster idle. The SVs are moved by the wax unit when the engine is cold to give a faster idle when first started. The SV positions are also controlled by the idle adjuster screw when the engine is hot.

[TomVfr]

Hi Terry, thank you for your help and clarification on the shorter non-adjustable starter valve 👍

 

in looking up about the injectors removal, checking for leakage and cleaning, I have found these videos to be helpful-

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skids]

Tom, whereabouts in the UK do you live? I have a Carbtune I use to balance the SVs which you are welcome to borrow or when you have her running properly, ride round and do it.

[TomVfr]

Hi Skids, thanks for the kind offer, I’m up in Aberdeenshire so around 500 miles away unfortunately! 

[Skids]

27 minutes ago, TomVfr said:

Hi Skids, thanks for the kind offer, I’m up in Aberdeenshire so around 500 miles away unfortunately! 

That's a short trip to the local shops for some of our colonial cousins across the pond!  

[TomVfr]

So to update-

 

With the airbox off I thought to try a blast of Easy Start in each of the air ports, the bike started straight away and ticked over smoothly.

I then installed the air box, bolted down the petrol tank and went for a local ride of 4 miles as didn’t want to go too far away in case of any problems- this was the first time I’d ever ridden this bike and it ran well, vtec worked- much softer than my 2002 was. With the engine warm the bike would start on first press no problems. 

 

I attempted to clear the error codes.
Still get a solid red light with the jumper lead in. But flashes 1 & 9 are gone.

So 2 days later-

With the air temperature at a cool 6*C, I try to start, turns over, won't stay running for more than 5 seconds. Spray Easy Start into the airbox where the flap is open but still won't start.

Go back an hour later, started 1st time. 

Sat at low revs 1100 for 30 secs.
Then picked up to 2k.
Warmed up, levelled off back to 1100 tick over.

Stop and starts fine when engine warm.

 

I have replaced the starter solenoid red connector block which had melted on the red wire and replaced the red wire female connector. 
And have made the ‘home-made’ pressurised injector cleaner with 9v battery and tyre valve (like in the YouTube video I posted above) so that the injectors can be looked at next.

 

Part of me thinks to just order a new battery in case I’m getting a weak spark but my results are still 12.5v fully off, 11.9v with ignition on, between 10.5-11.5v when pressing the starter, 13.9v when engine is running. 

[Grum]

Hi Tom.

Bit of info that you may not be aware of and could be related to some of your problems.

 

These bikes (as well as my 2013 Mazda 3 car and 8gen vfr) do not like being started then stopped Before the engine gets warm. Rich fuel can remain in the cold cylinders for days. The next time you attempt to start the engine is now in an Over Rich flooded state extremely reluctant to Start.

 

That is the reason for a Flooded Start procedure in the Owners Manual.

Requires the throttle to Fully open while cranking, this shuts Off injectors and purges the engine of excess fuel, eventually the engine will cough and splutter into life. Bit of a heavy drain on the battery.

 

So whenever starting the engine Always run it for a good few minutes to get the engine warm, no need for full hot!

 

And Yes as mentioned. Any doubts about the age and health of the battery - Replace it always a good investment.

 

Cheers.

[TomVfr]

Hi Grum

thanks very much for the info. I think that every time the engine has started, it has been run til warm. The other times it didn’t start when I first got the bike maybe it did stay flooded so the “flooded start procedure” would have been good to know as I was opening the throttle at the same time as cranking to try and get it started and stay running.

 

Well onto latest developments,

 

2 days after the previous efforts, I press the starter and it fires up easily first try. Great!

 

I had my DIY injectors cleaning kit ready so still decide to take them out and spray thru as per the YouTube video above. I didn’t notice any of the injectors being blocked, they all blasted out a clean spread of the cleaning fluid, although it was quite a precarious set up having to press the cleaner nozzle, pressurise the contraption, get power to the injector without too much pressure blowing off the rubber valve connection.

 

Re-installed injectors, air box. Bike started up again no effort.

 

Left the bike to sit for another 2 days, it was 7*C so a little cool. Fired up first press again. It sat at low revs under 1k for about 30 secs then rose to 2.2k for 2 minutes before settling back down to 1.2k. 

 

I’m wondering if the delay in the bike being at under 1k at the very start to going up to 2.2k is something to be looked at or not? It’s part of the wax starter part? On the attached photo I noticed on a YouTube video that these actually move (to control the amount of air?) so maybe mine need cleaning all the muck off them? I think the red area circles is related to the wax device? And what’s the best way to clean this whole area as it’s pretty grimey compared to other VFR photos I’ve seen?

 

Other than that, the clutch seems very rattley (compared to my previous VFR VTEC), when the bike is sat in neutral warming up. The noise goes away when the clutch is pulled in, and sometimes stays away, other times comes back. Is this something that can be adjusted or a sign of it needing some maintenance? I remember some idle clutch noise on my older VFR but it was relatively quiet.

 

The new battery was delivered, but seems like the bike no longer has those initial starting problems, so I won’t install the new battery yet.

 

I will have to take the bike out on some test rides but for now I’m happy enough that it at least starts 😃

 

Is there any diagnosis (so-far) for what my non-starting problem was? I hope it was down to the bike having been stood over the winter.

 

 

 

[Presson]

Hi Tom. Skids had a relatively similar issue with his 5th Gen recently. The whole thread is here but ultimately the problem was caused by the wax unit linkage sticking and failing to operate the starter valves correctly.  I believe a thoroughly good clean up without disassembly cured the issue. Worth a try; yours (correctly circled in red) does look rather gunky

 

 

[TomVfr]

Hi Presson, thanks very much, will look into that and give the parts a good clean and some lubricant 

[Skids]

WD40 cleaned them up very quickly.

[TomVfr]

Ok, so the red and blue circled areas have been cleaned up with wd40 and a toothbrush. As both areas do move at the same time when you extend the wax unit. Even with wd40 on the shafts and moving parts they still make a squeaking noise when moving them with my fingers.

 

I refitted the airbox etc and started up, the engine sat at 1k revs for around 10 seconds before going up to 2k revs so this is an improvement and an acceptable amount of time for the wax unit to react?

 

Onto my next concern, the oil in the viewing window. After running the bike up to 105 and the fans coming on, the attached photo is how the oil looks, there's a white layer on top of the brown oil at the bottom. According to the service receipts, this oil and filter was changed 9 months, 3000 miles ago. Does this white layer on top of the oil point to there being a broken water pump seal or something or should I get the bike out for a proper ride and see how the oil is afterwards once it's all been mixed and thru the filter properly?

 

 

[Presson]

Hmm, other opinions needed Tom. 

 

Looking at that photo:

a. The oil level is just above minimum and a water oil emulsion makes up the rest to the full mark. In cars that would probably indicate a break in the head gasket - not sure about a VFR. 

Or 

b. The oil level is higher but the sight glass itself is discoloured and there's a bit of condensation which would not be unusual for a bike that's been sitting over winter.

It also looks as though the crankcase has been repainted judging by the poor masking on the sight glass.

 

I think if it was my bike, I would check the coolant level and condition ( hopefully no emulsion in the reservoir), do an oil change and then monitor both over several rides. If the coolant level changes and the oil ends up emulsified then you know you've got a gasket or seal that's failed.

 

Others may have better ideas.

Incidentally, on the starting and idle issue you didn't say what rpm the warm idle settled at. For an 8 Gen it should be around 1250 - 1300 iirc. I suspect it's the same for yours

 

 

[Captain 80s]

Yes, and...

 

After changing the oil, you need to RIDE for a good 45 minutes at full operating temperature to remove any moisture from the crankcases (provided you do not have any issues).  Running a bike in the driveway, even until the fans come on, typically introduces moisture.  That's why short trips on vehicles is so bad for them and their exhaust systems.

[TomVfr]

The idle is pretty steady at 1200rpm once warmed up which I'd estimate takes around 4 minutes.

 

On the previous photo it does look like the oil level viewing glass has been spray painted and poorly masked off, however this was just road dirt that I hadn't cleaned.

 

I attach a photo of the oil level from this evening, a day later, cold engine, looks healthier than the previous photo from when the bike was running.

 

Coolant level on the tank on the left hand side is in the middle of the min and max markings.

 

I've refitted the fairings now so if the weather holds out I'll take the bike out for a good ride this weekend and report back 🤞

 

 

[Presson]

Ok, so it is beginning to look like condensation rather than anything more concerning at this point. As Captain 80s says, a couple of decent rides, 45 mins to 1 hour, and check how things look. 

 

Your report on idle sounds about right. You will know from your previous VFR that honda made them idle high to properly warm up before settling down. 

 

If the bike has been sat idle for a time some action will sort me any minor issues out. Let us know how you get on.