Nifty7Fifty Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 This is fantastic stuff, thanks so much for posting up such a good set of videos. I've been looking for a solution to this for years. Quick question, if i fit one of these to my rc36/1 do I have to do the dogbone bolt hole mod, or will it fit the old ones ok and still clear everything? Many thanks again, this is excellent stuff. It will fit fine in the original link hole, but you might be anywhere from 5 to 13mm lower ride height. Some folks like a little lower, it's totally subjective based on your size and riding preference. Drilling the link is not necessary for this swap, the 2nd hole is merely for lifting the rear. . https://youtu.be/9MdC_0lpyCc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Welcome aboard! I am watching this with interest b/c I have a 3rd gen "in the works" and an upgraded rear shock is on my to do list for this winter. Thanks! Looks like we're not too far from each other, let me know if you need a hand.For your next video, can you say "Fuck you Lahey"...you sound a lot like a younger version of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys!!Also, are the ZZR shocks the same throughout the years? I've seen a 2014 one for cheap.Yes, same, more or less, negligible changes. The important stuff is all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 If nobody has already pointed this out, the ZX-14R rear shock (2012) has a spring rate of 9.7kg/mm The VFR750 shock (1990-93) has a spring rate of 16 kg/mm This is a HUGE difference, and should not be ignored. You could lever on a stiffer spring to the ZX-14 shock, but then it would be severely underdamped for that spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keny Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Good point the spring rate, but how does the change in linkage effect to what spring rate is needed? But yes, in the vid the rear seems soft even controlled, use meay mutch of its travel, so might work solo but 2 up I think this setup will not work, will easy bottom out. Just my 2 cent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 If nobody has already pointed this out, the ZX-14R rear shock (2012) has a spring rate of 9.7kg/mm The VFR750 shock (1990-93) has a spring rate of 16 kg/mm This is a HUGE difference, and should not be ignored. You could lever on a stiffer spring to the ZX-14 shock, but then it would be severely underdamped for that spring. Thanks for bringing this up! They are completely different shock designs, like comparing apples to watermelons. You wouldn't want to go heavier on the ZZR spring unless you are heavier than 225 lbs (in my opinion), as a matter of fact, one of the reasons I chose the ZZR shock was for it's 9.7kg spring (one of the heavier modern factory offerings). These are modern devices utilizing spring manufacturing and tech that wasn't around in late 80's/early 90's. No doubt the 16kg spring on the viffer was likely used to overcompensate for the dogshit damping unit ;) I'm at 210 - 215 with gear and I still have about 30% more thread left to tighten the preload down harder on the new ZX, but it feels perfect where it's at. I'm sure a "custom" suspension guru could "dial in" the perfect spring and "tune" the shock a little more to get the most out of it, but this was meant to be a cheap and easy way to get your old viffer back up to speed. And so far, I'm very impressed. Bet if you took it for a spin, you'd agree that it's much better than when it came off the line in 1990. Now I'm no guru at all, but I've never even heard of any modern racers using a 16kg spring? By the way, the Ninja 1400 is 580 lbs. wet, I think the viffer is what 540? This is another reason the Zx14r rear shock is a powerful choice. It's widely known, that the Kawasaki zx14r handles like a Sports-Tourer rather then a super-sport.... These are just some of the dots I connected to reach the conclusion that the big Ninja shock would be a prime choice. Now that I'm well past all the speculation and into real-world testing, I can tell you it's truly better than I anticipated, Can't wait to hit the highway and really see what she's got ;) . Good point the spring rate, but how does the change in linkage effect to what spring rate is needed? Can't use the original spring rate as a gauge, it's obsolete technology... You are right on track with bringing up the linkage though, that is a big piece of the puzzle. Check out the reply I just left for Veefer800Canuck. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y282 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Brilliant, thanks for the third vid. Can't believe how stock it looks in situ. Look forward to the info about modding the mounts, then i'm 100% doing this to mine. How much stiffer can you make the shock perform than the setup in your third vid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Brilliant, thanks for the third vid. Can't believe how stock it looks in situ. Look forward to the info about modding the mounts, then i'm 100% doing this to mine. How much stiffer can you make the shock perform than the setup in your third vid? There's quite a bit of preload adjustment left, I'd say I'm only 60 - 70% down on the preload (there's approximately 30% thread left to tighten down). Keep in mind on that last video I was standing behind the bike, pushing down on the grab-holds with all my strength. At that angle and thrust, it produces an unusual and unnatural strain to the suspension. I did this to simulate extreme suspension compression and range of motion, to confirm that there was no binding or contact anywhere, which as seen in the video there was none. During test riding, however, the rear end was firm, and the damping was extraordinary. The test roads are very bumpy and twisty, with patches of gravel and potholes around every corner (typical NorthEast American back roads), And I could not feel anything at all from the back, It absorbed every bump, crack and dip, without the slightest wheel slip or bounce, all while feeling planted through every turn and under hard acceleration. It really is unbelievable, maybe because I was accustomed to the original shock, which only really had 2 settings - Pogo stick or Cadillac mode. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y282 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Awesome, cheers. I'm getting a 2012 one off ebay for 85 quid (not sure what that is in dollars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Awesome, cheers. I'm getting a 2012 one off ebay for 85 quid (not sure what that is in dollars). .... that's about $130 USD. Looking forward to seeing your results! You could be part of the multinational elite team of people that own a Viffer tricked out with a ZX14R shock!! (right now the Worlwide Super-Elite Ninja VFR750 team is just me, lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y282 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Dead excited for it. The vfr is my go to bike for bad weather, commuting, etc so i don't mess up any other bikes but tbh i enjoy riding it so much i tend to take it out anyway. the rear shock has always bugged me on an otherwise really well built bike. Update: Bought it! (christ this better work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer rangemaster Posted October 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2015 "The Zx-14r shock is not easily compatible with the 4th gens, it would require more comprehensive modifications. There are other options for the 4th gens though." So, other than the 929 shock, what might some of these other options? Said the 4th gen owner with almost 35,000 miles on the stock shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Dead excited for it. The vfr is my go to bike for bad weather, commuting, etc so i don't mess up any other bikes but tbh i enjoy riding it so much i tend to take it out anyway. the rear shock has always bugged me on an otherwise really well built bike. Update: Bought it! (christ this better work) Congrats bro! Welcome to the Ninja Viffer club !! (You automatically upgrade to "Worldwide Super-Elite" status after a successful installation ;D Guess this means I really need to get moving on the "official" How-To video. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Let me be REAL clear about this; To the fellas who thought the suspension looked soft in the video, it's called leverage. I stood behind the bike and pushed down on the rear sub-frame with all my might (I'm 6' 200 lbs. muscular build). I can generate alot of force, and I did. And no, it did not bottom out... Not even close, nor a little bit. Nowhere near bottoming out. Proof is right there on the video, I hold no punches. That's why I performed that test, because I too wanted to be sure that it would go the extreme, which it did. Now, I can assure you, when you ride you will come nowhere near the amount of pressure I used on that video, not by yourself or 2-up. Unless of course, you are 300 lbs. and are accompanied by a 200 lb pillion (in that case, I would just get a GoldWing). 2 Important points: When test riding, the rear proved to be rock solid, and dampened everything I threw at it to boot. Make no mistake, these roads are terrible out here, but perfect for a shake-down run. And secondly, as I previously mentioned, I set the preload on the softer side, especially for my size. There is a good bit of room left to really tighten down that preload. So if you wanna feel like you're riding on the frame, go ahead, crank that baby down. Fellas, let's understand something now before your speculation confuses someone.... Ready... Here it comes.... I completed the swap already! I'm in the Road-Testing phase now. So far, it's been flawless !! You can not argue with RESULTS !!! By the way, don't take this post the wrong way, no offense meant. I'm a go-getter, I get things done. I'm not interested in all the assumptions and negative speculation, I make SOLUTIONS. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y282 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Dead excited for it. The vfr is my go to bike for bad weather, commuting, etc so i don't mess up any other bikes but tbh i enjoy riding it so much i tend to take it out anyway. the rear shock has always bugged me on an otherwise really well built bike. Update: Bought it! (christ this better work) Congrats bro! Welcome to the Ninja Viffer club !! (You automatically upgrade to "Worldwide Super-Elite" status after a successful installation ;DGuess this means I really need to get moving on the "official" How-To video. . . Think the only thing i don't know now is about the mounting mods you mentioned, everything else is good. This looks like a very practical solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted October 31, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2015 Let me be REAL clear about this; To the fellas who thought the suspension looked soft in the video, it's called leverage. I stood behind the bike and pushed down on the rear sub-frame with all my might (I'm 6' 200 lbs. muscular build). I can generate alot of force, and I did. And no, it did not bottom out... Not even close, nor a little bit. Nowhere near bottoming out. Proof is right there on the video, I hold no punches. That's why I performed that test, because I too wanted to be sure that it would go the extreme, which it did. Now, I can assure you, when you ride you will come nowhere near the amount of pressure I used on that video, not by yourself or 2-up. Unless of course, you are 300 lbs. and are accompanied by a 200 lb pillion (in that case, I would just get a GoldWing). 2 Important points: When test riding, the rear proved to be rock solid, and dampened everything I threw at it to boot. Make no mistake, these roads are terrible out here, but perfect for a shake-down run. And secondly, as I previously mentioned, I set the preload on the softer side, especially for my size. There is a good bit of room left to really tighten down that preload. So if you wanna feel like you're riding on the frame, go ahead, crank that baby down. Fellas, let's understand something now before your speculation confuses someone.... Ready... Here it comes.... I completed the swap already! I'm in the Road-Testing phase now. So far, it's been flawless !! You can not argue with RESULTS !!! By the way, don't take this post the wrong way, no offense meant. I'm a go-getter, I get things done. I'm not interested in all the assumptions and negative speculation, I make SOLUTIONS. Thanks Ah, perfect! We're about the same size - I love it when someone does all the research for me. Thanks again for sharing this. And yeah - We should go for a ride one of these days. Or maybe have a wrench day and swap lies stories P.S. You didn't buy stock in manufacturing of used ZX shocks, did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4 Rosso Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Can't use the original spring rate as a gauge, it's obsolete technology...Veefer800canuck has a point. Springs haven't changed much other than that they now use different materials. But a 16kg/mm spring is still a 16kg/mm spring no matter what size, material or shape. I have a rather new shock on my 3rd gen made to suit my riding style and weight (220lbs) and the spring rate is 210N/mm - 22,4kg/mm. Like keny said, it would be interesting to know by how much the modification of the dogbone has altered the link ratio. But from the video the spring does look rather soft. Have you measured sag (front/rear) with the bike loaded and unloaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keny Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I have a friend that has a old early 80´s Z1000 that he has put a 3rd gen swing arm on. As a shock he did use a ZXR750 (ZX7) H1 Öhlins shock that he had around, but did find it had a to soft spring when he actually did ride it. Even you add preload to a point where sag is ok, when you ride it hard on roads whit fast altitude changes, and then still talking moderate altitude changes, the shock bottoms out fairly easy for him. I dont recall what spring rate the H1 has, but its softer than the stock Honda I know. Anyway a to soft spring is as dangerous as a to stiff, as a bottomed out suspension is like no suspension and take the bike out of control. What you test is interesting, yes, but I agree whit V4Rosso that the shock looks soft in the vid, that compare if I would do same whit my 3rd gen that has a healty OEM shock. Its just impossible to give same load on the bike by hand that a real force by actually ride does to it. A soft suspension feels nice to a point, then its getting bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Just measured sag... dead ballz on 19mm. Plus the preload has a way to go. I appreciate your opinions,I know you guys are checking all the bases. I'm telling ya though, you are far off base with the spring rates. The spring material is only one (small) factor. This is a modern cutting edge damping unit. You need to focus on the unit as a whole. Just zeroing in on the spring, does nothing. The spring is a bigger factor in older units with crap internals. I build custom off-road 4wd truck suspensions also, and the damping technology is so advanced now, that some guys run their trucks with no springs at all [this is just an example of how far the tech has come in just the last ten years, and that would be an ultra high end damper] Likewise, these [zx14r] shocks are top of the line, advanced units, engineered by Kayaba. That being said, I am still testing, but I'm giving it to you straight, in real time. I have no dogs in this fight... if there were any probs, I would not hesitate to point them out. It's nothing for me to yank this shock out and throw in the next one on my list. I welcome anyone on this forum to visit me, and come take the ninja viffer for a joyride and see for yourself! By the way Russo, a 22kg spring? Holy shyt chap !?! Can't comment on your setup, good deal if it works for you bro. All I can say is I'm 200lbs naked and so far the Zx Viffer is hauling me like nobody's business ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slovcan Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 Just measured sag... dead ballz on 19mm. Plus the preload has a way to go. I appreciate your opinions,I know you guys are checking all the bases. I'm telling ya though, you are far off base with the spring rates. The spring material is only one (small) factor. This is a modern cutting edge damping unit. You need to focus on the unit as a whole. Just zeroing in on the spring, does nothing. The spring is a bigger factor in older units with crap internals. I build custom off-road 4wd truck suspensions also, and the damping technology is so advanced now, that some guys run their trucks with no springs at all [this is just an example of how far the tech has come in just the last ten years, and that would be an ultra high end damper] Likewise, these [zx14r] shocks are top of the line, advanced units, engineered by Kayaba. That being said, I am still testing, but I'm giving it to you straight, in real time. I have no dogs in this fight... if there were any probs, I would not hesitate to point them out. It's nothing for me to yank this shock out and throw in the next one on my list. I welcome anyone on this forum to visit me, and come take the ninja viffer for a joyride and see for yourself! By the way Russo, a 22kg spring? Holy shyt chap !?! Can't comment on your setup, good deal if it works for you bro. All I can say is I'm 200lbs naked and so far the Zx Viffer is hauling me like nobody's business ;) OK, here's a couple of more thoughts as the analysis continues. For sure 21st century damping may somehow offset the need for a higher spring rate. To my mind that would mean the damper is now expected to carry some load previously carried by the spring. Maybe. You say some offroad suspensions do without springs. Wow. Those must be some strong shock bodies and seals! In this case, well, new tech vs old tech, I'm sure the actual linkage design has the most impact on the required spring rate. How similar is the Kawasaki linkage design to our old VFRs? Following this train of thought, maybe drilling a new mounting point on the dogbone has significantly reduced the leverage of the swingarm on the shock/spring thus allowing a lower rate spring to perform well. Bill, how would you feel about a comparison using the original dogbone mounting hole? Taking this a step further, how hard would it be to change out the ZX14 spring with one from a Connie14, for example? Of course, finding a Connie14 spring without having to buy the whole shock assembly might be next to impossible. But, if we had the unladen spring length (off the shock) and inside diameter, we could maybe find stiffer suitable replacements for those of us who might want that. Loving this, thanks! Cheers, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 There is still one major factor that nobody's mentioned yet.. waiting to see which one of you blokes figures it out first. I want to see how much thought you're really putting into this ;) Glenn - I would just order an ohlins spring, best bang for the buck imo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slovcan Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 There is still one major factor that nobody's mentioned yet.. waiting to see which one of you blokes figures it out first. I want to see how much thought you're really putting into this ;) Glenn - I would just order an ohlins spring, best bang for the buck imo... ??? I fear you may not have understood the tone and context of what I wrote. Like I said, just thoughts. Before you discovered this solution, a fellow called Raymond from Houston on the V4Hondabbs site was modding CBR600 shocks for us to put on our V65 Sabres. I put one on mine and loved it. It felt a lot softer than the old air/oil set-up, but performed great. It did have to be set at near max everything, but those adjustments were there and it worked. My curiosity was about how it would feel with the original dogbone mounting hole to preserve the original front end geometry. Actually, this won't work, as I think that would give it a lower ride height and may make it too soft. Still, there may be a spot between the original hole and where you drilled yours that would give the same ride height as stock and, maybe if that was too soft for some, a spring change would solve that. I'm game to give your set-up a go as it is. Sharper handling and steering in 90+% of my riding. I don't really care that much about 150 mph stability (which you said was OK anyway with the original shock and increased ride height) because I never go anywhere near that fast. Edit: I just found this on eBay. The listing has an interesting chart at the bottom. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-ZX-14-Heavy-Duty-Shock-Spring-/171924930441?hash=item2807863f89:g:XW4AAOSw-nZTpjdF&vxp=mtr Just more food for thought. Cheers, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 Hey Glenn... ok got you, on the road at the moment, missed the part about the bracket hole position. Good question, I really wouldn't expect a big difference, minor maybe. Keep in mind I'm only 2/3 down on all 3 device settings, so plenty of room left to counteract the change in geometry (I reckon). If I dropped back to the original dogbone position, I would lower the front proportionately. That brings up another point, part of the reason why the suspension moves more fluently now is due to the rear being better coordinated with the front forks, moving as one complete system. The original suspension always felt like 2 separate systems to me (front & rear). Now the bike moves the way it should, synergistically. The ZZR shock (as tuned) definitely compliments the forks. I'd be concerned about swapping out the spring and losing some of that synergy. I'm looking forward to more folks having fun with this swap and seeing some variations on the setup!*** Nice job finding that chart It correlates everything I've been saying! That particular chart is based on extended swingarms... now study those recommended spring rates and their associated values (riders weight & SA length, i.e. LEVERAGE).The 16kg spring is the HEAVIEST offering on the chart, recommended only for 250+ pound riders running a 14 INCH EXTENDED swing arm!!! WHOA. And someone on here was talking about running a 16kg spring on their stock viffer Too Funny. Hope everyone has a chance to look at that chart.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V4 Rosso Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Well, you are right about leverage but that chart has nothing to do with it in this case. Picking a new spring for an extended swingarm is simple math, the link system used on both the ZX and the Honda is a bit more complex and the link ratio between the ZX and the VFR will be far apart judging by the different stock spring rates. This animation illustrates the moving parts involved very well. The geomtry and the way the different part connect (and move) between the ZX and VFR differ quiet substantialy. Do you know the stroke of the ZX shock? As it has only a 9,7kg/mm spring I guess it has a longer stroke than the VFR shock. I would not be surprised if the rear wheel now has so much travel that it can hit the undertray before the shock bottoms out. Haven another person (your size and strength )push hard down on the rear grab handles while you are seated on the bike. ZX14 link system VFR750 link system. VFR750 shock arm Here is some background info on the subject: http://www.promecha.com.au/leverage_linkages.htm And someone on here was talking about running a 16kg spring on their stock viffer Too Funny.You'd have to talk to Honda about that as 16kg/mm is about the stock spring rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 ugh, forums. Full of armchair experts. He's out there, riding the bike, hasn't fallen off, hasn't bottomed out, he's got nothing to prove. Stick one on your bikes THEN have an opinion on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty7Fifty Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 Too funnyYou'd have to talk to Honda about that as 16kg/mm is about the stock spring rate. -Exactly... The "stock" spring rate... On the the stock shock that Honda says is obsolete. You know, that same dog poop shock that Honda stopped supporting a long time ago? The shock that everyone hates, the one major flaw on an almost perfect bike. Here's a little history; Honda knew the rear suspension was garbage, so much so, that they delayed delivery of the first 3rd gens to the USA for over 6 months while they "worked the bugs out" [of the suspension]. They never did get it right, but it handled good enough to sell... On another note... Glad to see you're thinking I was wondering when someone would finally add stroke to the equation. Yes stroke has alot to do with it, and all the aforementioned factors (geometry, stroke, spring rate, etc.) all work together, and must be understood as a whole. My bike is now handling the way it should have when it was fresh off the showroom floor. New setup is infinitely better than stock, you just gotta run the piss out of it and see for yourself. I don't see it bottoming out, doesn't even come close, but I will sit on it and have a friend try as you suggested. If one were truly concerned about bottoming, you could simply raise the bumpstop - done deal. However, The longer stroke makes for a more precise (and smoother) range of motion. It feels like it's allowing the swingarm to function more proper, like how it was designed to move. I believe the longer stroke gets the most out of it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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