Tons On Cycle Trader

[alleyoop]

When it comes to sport touring machines, I prefer the sporty VFR to the faux-adventure bikes trending today.

I'm in the category of 50-somethings who think the cardio, weights, and yoga are worth the pleasure.

And when needed, over-the-counter NSAIDS are thankfully cheap. :)

[TimC]

When it comes to sport touring machines, I prefer the sporty VFR to the faux-adventure bikes trending today.

I have a suspicion that many "adventure" style bikes now see only pavement and maybe a gravel driveway. The big selling points for these bikes for such riders are comfortable ergonomics and all-around versatility. Why not make bikes that have those features but don't have the weird looking beak front end?

Getting back to the VFR, I worry that limited sales of new VFRs in the US would negatively affect the availability of those bikes here, or perhaps even make Honda think twice about continuing to make new VFRs, and especially new generations of them. New 2-3 year-old VFRs sitting in dealer inventories doesn't make dealers want to buy more VFRs in the future when they take forever to sell. That will eventually mean it's harder to find new VFRs here, and then much harder to find good used ones available for sale privately and in shops. It might not be a problem now, but in a few years it could be hard to find a new or used 8th gen.

[marriedman]

Honda is pricing themselves out of the market unfortunately. Kawasaki and Yamaha are making some compelling bikes right now, and they are coming in at a price that makes them very attractive.

I am seeing 8th gens for $9500 at dealerships already. If they would have introduced them at that price, they would have sold like hotcakes I bet.

[swimmer]

Honda is pricing themselves out of the market unfortunately. Kawasaki and Yamaha are making some compelling bikes right now, and they are coming in at a price that makes them very attractive.

I am seeing 8th gens for $9500 at dealerships already. If they would have introduced them at that price, they would have sold like hotcakes I bet.

So they are supposed to put an MSRP on the VFR that gives them less margin than their other motorcycles or even no profit? Or just skimp on the design until they get the costs low enough? The VFR is a premium motorcycle so it costs more. I was in a BMW shop a couple of months ago. The apparent build quality and design of even their highest end offerings was below the VFR1200. Just not put together as well.

[marriedman]

Actually yes, that is what I am saying. I am sure that the 8th gen is priced as high as it is for increased profits. It's a parts bin bike, it's not like there was a ton of R & D done on it. The 7th gen however was completely new design however, but they priced it so high it was not on anyones radar. We 7th gen owners did not start swelling until the deals could be had. Yamaha build quality has impressed me lately as well. The new FJR1300's are beautiful and well made.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Honda's, especially my VFR's. They just aren't going to be more popular until they are priced competively.

[iamzombie]

So they are supposed to put an MSRP on the VFR that gives them less margin than their other motorcycles or even no profit? Or just skimp on the design until they get the costs low enough? The VFR is a premium motorcycle so it costs more. I was in a BMW shop a couple of months ago. The apparent build quality and design of even their highest end offerings was below the VFR1200. Just not put together as well.

You are drinking too much of that Honda kool-aid, my friend... If dealers are selling them for 1/2 original MSRP now, I assure you they were making a boatload of cash previously.

[swimmer]

So they are supposed to put an MSRP on the VFR that gives them less margin than their other motorcycles or even no profit? Or just skimp on the design until they get the costs low enough? The VFR is a premium motorcycle so it costs more. I was in a BMW shop a couple of months ago. The apparent build quality and design of even their highest end offerings was below the VFR1200. Just not put together as well.

You are drinking too much of that Honda kool-aid, my friend... If dealers are selling them for 1/2 original MSRP now, I assure you they were making a boatload of cash previously.

Don't think so. So you think Honda just decided to price the VFR1200 randomly? They based it on manufacturing and development costs and what sort return they normally get on those costs. Its not a cheap to make and the development costs were probably high in comparison to the volume so the msrp seems high. Its higher quality than the K1300S in my opinion and yet people don't complain about the cost of that as much because its a BMW. Not drinking any kool-aid. Had a 6th gen as well. Most problematic motorcycle I've owned.

[marriedman]

No complany makes a profit the first couple years on a new product. It's building the name and the reputation; then selling accessories, lisences, and service that they make money. Product sold at a loss enable a company to acquire new customers and encourage repeat customers to keep being repeat customers. Many tech companies do that as well.

I think that Honda should have released the 1200 V4 as a platform. A pure sport model, touring model, and then adventure model. Somewhat similar to what Kawasaki did with the ZX14/Concours. We all know that the 7th gen frame is marvelous and versatile and that would work well in all three of those capacities. I know that thte VFR has the legacy of "do it all", but I believe that would have made it a better selling motorcycle. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact I got a sports bike and touring bike as a package, but I bet that would have helped mother Honda. Also, having three distinct variations would reduce overall R & D.

I realy don't want to start/contribute to an argument. We may have different opinions, but we are all motorcyclist and VFR owners. So we have a lot in common, everyone keep that in mind!

[zedXmick]

It SURE DIDN'T help that Honda released the 1200 with the severe "power restriction" in first and second gear, especially when Honda priced the 1200 as it did....that also helped to seal it's fate with the moto journalist's. I ride around the 1st and 2nd gear problem 90% of the time but when you need 100% power NOW and don't get it...It is a serious problem. Honda should have never released the 1200 like this,they should have given the 1200 true traction control AND full power in all gears. Especially on a 17K motorcycle. (2010 prices)

Today we have the Guhl Motors ECU fix ($350.00) for the 1&2 gear problems...to think HONDA sunk a new model over way less than 350.00 (their cost) per ECU to fix the problem sounds unreal to me....but they did.

[kebrider]

I rode Gloryracing's 7th gen at TMAC this year, though not in the tight stuff, and the bike impressed me. I loved the pulse of the motor, the light side-to-side handling, the immediate power and the pinky finger brakes. A set of lowered pegs and I could do some serious miles on one comfortably.

Your assessment in the 'tight stuff' would be the same. It can't be thrown around as easily as a lightweight sportbike but certainly quick enough for an almost sane street ridin' pace.

Comfort trumps everything in my old age. Remember how we were laughing during TMAC about how a Handlebar Mounted Aleve Dispenser would outsell a power commander to the over-50 crowd?

Do you lift and/or do cardio? Makes a huge difference. I think the older I get the harder I have to work in the gym, but it pays dividends come the weekend. Riding better now than I ever have.

Strength and physical durability are why I easily ride 25 to to 30K miles a year. It is the nearly 60 YO knees that require evermore legroom. Hip and knee angles rule. I can log 700 mile days on the ST with ease even though it is not really all that stretched out. Too many fall away jumpers took their toll.

[STrider]

I've always thought that the 1200/DCT concept was originally intended to be the baseline for 3 distinct styles of bike: Sport, Adventure and ST. The VFR being the first, followed by the CrossDresser and eventually a 1300ST replacement. I fear that time, circumstances, a tsunami, nuclear fallout and changing consumer buying patterns have disrupted, or possibly even curtailed this from happening. If you look at the age of people engaging on the VFR and ST1300 forums it becomes apparent that most are 40+. Which makes sense because these bikes tend to cost more money, which older people generally have more of and they're set up to travel longer distances, which requires the use of more disposable time. Again a commodity we have more of.

Finally, it's unfortunate but in today's world image is everything and let's face it if you're the average 18 - 35 year old riding a style of bike that encourages wearing ass-less chaps and/or dressing like a pirate does more for your image than riding an "old dudes bike" and going ATGATT.

[jeremyr62]

They don't sell very well in Europe either as far as I know. Not a sales success by any stretch. They do sell some, but in the UK for example, there are tons of low mileage examples for sale on Ebay and other trading sites. Lots of 2010/11 models, far less post facelift. I know this cos I'm in the market for one. As an example on the Autotrader UK website there are 100 VFR1200's for sale. In comparison there are only 50 FJR1300s for sale. So, even though the FJR has been on sale in the UK since 2001 there are still shedloads more VFRs for sale. I don't understand it, as I think (hope) the VFR is a great bike (and I already own a FJR).

[Beck]

Let's just face it, Honda came up with a VFlopR with the 1200.....

And I bet there were heads rolling in Hamamatsu, because of it.....

The 8th gen being what it is proves the point...

So when will Honda ever really listen to bike owners and just finally get off their high horse and just build us what we've been asking for many years????

I'm sure some marketing executive at Honda USA must ride a VFR, why don't we invite one of those guys to join our forum so once and for all, we have a direct conduit to Honda ' s brain??

[iamzombie]

I don't think the bike is that bad (even tho I'm not a huge fan, personally) But it has got to have been a huge dent in Honda's bottom line, due to the lackluster sales.

They priced it against the K-1300GT, and let's face it, Hondas (car or bike) will never be able to demand the same money as a comparable BMW, whether they are as good (or better) or not.

IMO, it either needed to be more touring oriented, or about 100-150lbs lighter. I know everyone in here thinks it is the best handling bike ever, but for me, it's just too heavy to be a true sportbike, and it doesn't have enough creature comforts/fuel range to be a true tourer. I would like to see the engine make a comeback, even if it's not in a VFR. Make an RCV213F or something, I dunno :P

It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

[InlineSk8r]

It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

Rolling Stones 'Can't always get what you want' comes to mine. It works for me. Bit heavy in the tight corners compared to the 800, but it also a hell of a lot faster. I'll take a little more weight for a lot more horsepower.

People wanted a CBR with a VFR badge on it. Honda already has a CBR line, and the VFRs were never big sellers from most generations. Making a V4 1000cc motorcycle for the 7th generation just didn't fit their line up. Noticed how Honda went back to the 800 instead of making the 1000 people have been wishing/complaining about for years.

There are about as many models of motorcycles as cars these days, so some people switch in search of the perfect bike for them. Sadly, I don't have the funds to do that, but the 1200 is the first one that doesn't make me wish for another sportbike. Wish I had a cruiser also for those lazy days, but no room at the inn or time in the day to ride both.

[Beck]

It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

Rolling Stones 'Can't always get what you want' comes to mine. It works for me. Bit heavy in the tight corners compared to the 800, but it also a hell of a lot faster. I'll take a little more weight for a lot more horsepower.

People wanted a CBR with a VFR badge on it. Honda already has a CBR line, and the VFRs were never big sellers from most generations. Making a V4 1000cc motorcycle for the 7th generation just didn't fit their line up. Noticed how Honda went back to the 800 instead of making the 1000 people have been wishing/complaining about for years.

There are about as many models of motorcycles as cars these days, so some people switch in search of the perfect bike for them. Sadly, I don't have the funds to do that, but the 1200 is the first one that doesn't make me wish for another sportbike. Wish I had a cruiser also for those lazy days, but no room at the inn or time in the day to ride both.

Honda went back to the 800cc format, I suspect, mostly because they did not want to spend more on tooling and engineering, as the 800 motor was mostly all there already. It was a quick way to "fix" the VFR sales problem they had with the 1200. If they came out with a 1K motored 8th gen, that is more sport oriented than the 1200, but still not as hard edged as a CBR, I bet that the sales figure for the 800 will be so much higher, and the enthusiasm for the bike, especially in the VFR owner community would be boosted up sky high.....

[InlineSk8r]

I hope you're right. The 1200 has flaws and wasn't a big seller, so they went back to the old 6th generation that they had for 7 yrs, threw a new swing arm, fairings, wheels, and a couple of farkles and relabeled it as the new 800.

I, suspect, it'll sit in showrooms like the 6th and 7th generations did. The 6th gen sales at the end were flat. Honda tried to increase sales with a 1200 version to go against the BMW for some reason. It fell failed, and they scrambled and went back to the good old 800. Hope they don't fall back on the VFR way of just changing the color every year with little to no improvements.

[samael6978]

...It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

This is what I love about this bike. I mostly ride 150 to 200 miles round trip for a coffee through beautiful mountains and call it the day. Yet, I know I can pack my saddlebags and go for a longer trip. I don't need a huge ST to do that (traded FJR for this VFR). I don't want a sport bike either.

I get 41 mpg riding and the range is just slightly less than my wife's Ninja 1000. I'll buy bigger ST when I'm older and Kawi Z800 for riding around the town (man, I'm excited about it coming to the US).

[zaq123]

I don't think the bike is that bad (even tho I'm not a huge fan, personally) But it has got to have been a huge dent in Honda's bottom line, due to the lackluster sales.

They priced it against the K-1300GT, and let's face it, Hondas (car or bike) will never be able to demand the same money as a comparable BMW, whether they are as good (or better) or not.

IMO, it either needed to be more touring oriented, or about 100-150lbs lighter. I know everyone in here thinks it is the best handling bike ever, but for me, it's just too heavy to be a true sportbike, and it doesn't have enough creature comforts/fuel range to be a true tourer. I would like to see the engine make a comeback, even if it's not in a VFR. Make an RCV213F or something, I dunno :P

It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

I think VF1200 is what sport tourer supposed to be. My vfr has Ohlins, Helibars, bazzaz and PC3 mapped for my DAM pipe. All the above helped transform the bike to where it should've been. Corbin heated seat helps as well. I will take it any day vs concours or fjr (talking about big). VFR12 is more like SPORT Tourer than Sport TOURER if you know what I mean. It can take some tight stuff and at the same time can be comfy on long straight, even if its very windy out. It compliments my Aprilia Tuono perfectly.

I think its looks killed it on the dealer's floor, period.

[Volfy]

Let's just face it, Honda came up with a VFlopR with the 1200.....

And I bet there were heads rolling in Hamamatsu, because of it.....

The 8th gen being what it is proves the point...

So when will Honda ever really listen to bike owners and just finally get off their high horse and just build us what we've been asking for many years????

I'm sure some marketing executive at Honda USA must ride a VFR, why don't we invite one of those guys to join our forum so once and for all, we have a direct conduit to Honda ' s brain??

The 8th gen isn't exactly flying off the showroom floor either. Honda is already discounting them heavily just to move stock. All Honda has proved is that there was a reason they killed the 6th gen in the first place, and there will kill the 8th gen just the same.

7th gen had the bad luck of being introduced in the depth of the Great Recession. Motorcycle dealerships were dropping out left and right. Now that we are in an upswing in motorcycle sales and the 8th gen is still floundering, which should tell you just how well received the old 800 VFR really is.

Had Honda stuck to their guns and delivered the VFR1200T, the sporty F would not have gotten panned as bad as it did. The K1300S wasn't a hot seller, but nobody gave BMW any flack because they had the K1300GT for those who want more range and touring accouterments, which account for the vast majority of VFR1200F complaints. It's all a matter of expectations.

[Rider14]

I don't think the bike is that bad (even tho I'm not a huge fan, personally) But it has got to have been a huge dent in Honda's bottom line, due to the lackluster sales.

They priced it against the K-1300GT, and let's face it, Hondas (car or bike) will never be able to demand the same money as a comparable BMW, whether they are as good (or better) or not.

IMO, it either needed to be more touring oriented, or about 100-150lbs lighter. I know everyone in here thinks it is the best handling bike ever, but for me, it's just too heavy to be a true sportbike, and it doesn't have enough creature comforts/fuel range to be a true tourer. I would like to see the engine make a comeback, even if it's not in a VFR. Make an RCV213F or something, I dunno :P

It was jack of all trades, and master of none, IMO.

I think VF1200 is what sport tourer supposed to be. My vfr has Ohlins, Helibars, bazzaz and PC3 mapped for my DAM pipe. All the above helped transform the bike to where it should've been. Corbin heated seat helps as well. I will take it any day vs concours or fjr (talking about big). VFR12 is more like SPORT Tourer than Sport TOURER if you know what I mean. It can take some tight stuff and at the same time can be comfy on long straight, even if its very windy out. It compliments my Aprilia Tuono perfectly.

I think its looks killed it on the dealer's floor, period.

Mine too!

- Dan

Let's just face it, Honda came up with a VFlopR with the 1200.....

And I bet there were heads rolling in Hamamatsu, because of it.....

The 8th gen being what it is proves the point...

So when will Honda ever really listen to bike owners and just finally get off their high horse and just build us what we've been asking for many years????

I'm sure some marketing executive at Honda USA must ride a VFR, why don't we invite one of those guys to join our forum so once and for all, we have a direct conduit to Honda ' s brain??

The 8th gen isn't exactly flying off the showroom floor either. Honda is already discounting them heavily just to move stock. All Honda has proved is that there was a reason they killed the 6th gen in the first place, and there will kill the 8th gen just the same.

7th gen had the bad luck of being introduced in the depth of the Great Recession. Motorcycle dealerships were dropping out left and right. Now that we are in an upswing in motorcycle sales and the 8th gen is still floundering, which should tell you just how well received the old 800 VFR really is.

Had Honda stuck to their guns and delivered the VFR1200T, the sporty F would not have gotten panned as bad as it did. The K1300S wasn't a hot seller, but nobody gave BMW any flack because they had the K1300GT for those who want more range and touring accouterments, which account for the vast majority of VFR1200F complaints. It's all a matter of expectations.

I agree wholeheartedly. I remember seeing pics of an ST version at one point - I can only assume it had a bigger tank along with the side and top cases (and what appeared to be a bit more encompassing fairing...)

- Dan

[kebrider]

I rode Gloryracing's 7th gen at TMAC this year, though not in the tight stuff, and the bike impressed me. I loved the pulse of the motor, the light side-to-side handling, the immediate power and the pinky finger brakes. A set of lowered pegs and I could do some serious miles on one comfortably.

Your assessment in the 'tight stuff' would be the same. It can't be thrown around as easily as a lightweight sportbike but certainly quick enough for an almost sane street ridin' pace.

We did prove it can hang (barely) with an ST1300 in the tight stuff.

KEB

[iamzombie]

I think VF1200 is what sport tourer supposed to be. My vfr has Ohlins, Helibars, bazzaz and PC3 mapped for my DAM pipe. All the above helped transform the bike to where it should've been. Corbin heated seat helps as well. I will take it any day vs concours or fjr (talking about big). VFR12 is more like SPORT Tourer than Sport TOURER if you know what I mean. It can take some tight stuff and at the same time can be comfy on long straight, even if its very windy out. It compliments my Aprilia Tuono perfectly.

I think its looks killed it on the dealer's floor, period.

Yeah, throwing a few grand at any bike is bound to make it better, which is what makes your first sentence somewhat inaccurate. Your bike NOW may be what a sport tourer should be, but in stock form the VFR12 is lacking quite a bit, IMO anyway.

My biggest difficulty lies in deciding whether I want to spend the money to make the VFR better, or sell it and put it into my R1 (or maybe a different bike) to make IT better.

So far my VFR hasn't sold, so if I still have it at the end of the season I'll likely invest in an ECU flash and maybe getting the forks or shock done over by Jamie D.

[nr0974]

Well I paid 9500 for a brand new in crate 2012 vfr1200 last year around September. Did not rider her until May of this year and took her on a road trip to the Ozarks and I coudn't be happier.

[marriedman]

My biggest difficulty lies in deciding whether I want to spend the money to make the VFR better, or sell it and put it into my R1 (or maybe a different bike) to make IT better.

No offence Zombie, but you have been dissatisfied with the 1200 for quite a while. It's ok not to love the bike and sell it. There are too many options out there and life is too short to ride with a bike that doesn't give you smiles. The 1200 IS a wonderful bike, but it may not be right for you. Nothing wrong with that.

I could understand toying with the idea of dumping money in it if you were saying, "This bike is awesome! Well, except for this or that." The bike is uninspiring for you. Fix up that R1 and get your grin back!