Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 11, 2015 When I bought my bike the clutch would not disengage. The plates were glued together from lack of use. I had a new clutch put in by the previous owners mechanic and I rode the bike home 75 miles and everything was fine. I installed a ram ball on the clutch MC and I tilted it a quite a bit. When I tried to pull on the clutch it would not disengage again. I figured I got air in the line and would just need to bleed it. I came back a few days later with bleeder bottle an a bunch of brake fluid. I tried to bleed it but still not clutch. I tried the following after reading a bunch of threads here: - normal pump up, hold and turning the bleeder valve open and closed. - bleeding at banjo bolt - loosening the slave and pulling it back by a 1/4". Bleeding and the tighten the slave again. - turning the MC with the banjo at the lowest point and tapping it. I did not try tying the clutch lever down. But may give that a crack. I don't have a mity vac or any kind of power bleeder. But willing to purchase. Is there a chance the clutch plates are frozen again? I was tempted to tap the clutch push rod to loosen the plates if they were stuck again but held off until I got advice here. My hand is severely cramped from pumping the lever a zillion times! Aggghhhh! Thanks a bunch guys. It's the first nice weekend in New York and my poor VFR is unable to ridden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted April 11, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 11, 2015 How does the lever feel? Does it feel like its at least getting harder to pull? Although vacuum bleeders are a great tool, the clutch is far too easy to really require one. Make sure your banjo bolts are properly tightened and maybe try reverse bleeding, I.e. Push the fluid from the clutch slave up to the MC. This will require a syringe but may help ensure all the air goes to the highest point. Also, how did the fluid look when you opened the reservoir? You may want to clean it out and make sure the return hole isn't plugged, then refill and start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 12, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 12, 2015 Thanks Duc! It does feel like it's getting some pull after bleeding. I was wondering since its a wet clutch if I should start the bike. The plates are brand new and wondering if the just need breaking in? A long shot I'm guessing. I will try to locate a syringe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 12, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 12, 2015 "Push the fluid from the clutch slave up to the MC." This always works better for me and I place a piece of 1/2" styrofoami n between the lever and the handle bar so as to make sure I am at the pumping section of the cylinder . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted April 12, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 12, 2015 I use speed bleeders, which will not allow for reverse bleeding, so ironically what I recommended to you I cannot do. However, with standard bleeders it shouldn't be an issue. That being said I found these little goodies for my Brembo master cylinders on my Duc. They are banjo bolts with bleeders. I installed them yesterday, along with speed bleeders, so now bleeding comes real easy on all my clutch and brake lines. Unfortunately the thread pitch on these are different than the ones on the VFR. Although I think Speigler makes them for Japanese bikes, those are made of aluminum, which I do not prefer over the all stainless steel parts on the VFR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 13, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2015 "Push the fluid from the clutch slave up to the MC." This always works better for me and I place a piece of 1/2" styrofoami n between the lever and the handle bar so as to make sure I am at the pumping section of the cylinder . I will research the reverse bleeding. Does it take two people? Anybody have a link handy? Great tip on the foam! I'll get it done! Thank you so much for the reply Switchblade. I use speed bleeders, which will not allow for reverse bleeding, so ironically what I recommended to you I cannot do. However, with standard bleeders it shouldn't be an issue. That being said I found these little goodies for my Brembo master cylinders on my Duc. They are banjo bolts with bleeders. I installed them yesterday, along with speed bleeders, so now bleeding comes real easy on all my clutch and brake lines. Unfortunately the thread pitch on these are different than the ones on the VFR. Although I think Speigler makes them for Japanese bikes, those are made of aluminum, which I do not prefer over the all stainless steel parts on the VFR. IMG_1977.JPG IMG_1978.JPG I have a speed bleeder ordered for the slave and I actually looked for banjo bolt bleeders. But as you said the system need to be bled before the speed bleeders work! Aggghhh! Thank again Duc. I had a sweet 94 900SS SP that I still kick myself for selling. I had trouble bleeding that clutch too but the banjo bolt trick worked in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 13, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2015 "Push the fluid from the clutch slave up to the MC." This always works better for me and I place a piece of 1/2" styrofoami n between the lever and the handle bar so as to make sure I am at the pumping section of the cylinder . I will research the reverse bleeding. Does it take two people? Anybody have a link handy? Great tip on the foam! I'll get it done! Thank you so much for the reply Switchblade. No one person can do it. Just go slow and hold steady pressure on the syringe and the fluid will reach the top. Then bleed it and you should be good . First time I did a chain replacement I let the the piston pop out of the cylinder. So I tried to bleed it the old fashion way and got no wheres. Use the reverse method, done in 30 minutes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 13, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2015 Thanks so much Duc and Switchblade! Syringe ordered and I found a good video (For brakes but same theory applies). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBk00597EyE My hand is still sore from pumping the lever for two hours. Ha Ha! Learning everyday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted April 13, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2015 "Push the fluid from the clutch slave up to the MC." This always works better for me and I place a piece of 1/2" styrofoami n between the lever and the handle bar so as to make sure I am at the pumping section of the cylinder . I will research the reverse bleeding. Does it take two people? Anybody have a link handy? Great tip on the foam! I'll get it done! Thank you so much for the reply Switchblade. I use speed bleeders, which will not allow for reverse bleeding, so ironically what I recommended to you I cannot do. However, with standard bleeders it shouldn't be an issue. That being said I found these little goodies for my Brembo master cylinders on my Duc. They are banjo bolts with bleeders. I installed them yesterday, along with speed bleeders, so now bleeding comes real easy on all my clutch and brake lines. Unfortunately the thread pitch on these are different than the ones on the VFR. Although I think Speigler makes them for Japanese bikes, those are made of aluminum, which I do not prefer over the all stainless steel parts on the VFR. IMG_1977.JPG IMG_1978.JPG I have a speed bleeder ordered for the slave and I actually looked for banjo bolt bleeders. But as you said the system need to be bled before the speed bleeders work! Aggghhh! Thank again Duc. I had a sweet 94 900SS SP that I still kick myself for selling. I had trouble bleeding that clutch too but the banjo bolt trick worked in that case. It's funny, it's not the best performing bike, a little under powered, especially compared to today's sport bikes, a really short maintenance interval, takes a bit more effort to man handle turns, but I know at least three other riders who all say the same thing, they regret selling their 900SS. I'm the original owner and I bought it 20 years ago and although my 5 Gen is my go to bike for play rides, I still like to take the Duc out and can keep pace with some of my more modern day sport bike riding friends. Good luck on your bleeding, if the problem persist, maybe check the clutch slave for cleanliness or damage. I'd also look at the master cylinder and make sure its looking good as well. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Burns Posted April 13, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 13, 2015 fwiw, I just did a quick rebuild of my clutch slave... could NOT get the air out of the system... tried a mity vac, and the usual tricks. Finally, i took the slave off, and pushed the piston in.. Vola. got some bubbles pushed up into the master reservoir, and then I could get the remaining out in the traditional bleeding fashion.. ymmv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 15, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 15, 2015 I had a mechanic that works at the garage bleed it as well and he says there is no air is the system. The lever feels good he also said. Questions: - Can the lever have good feel but still not disengage the clutch? Perhaps air behind the slave piston? - The clutch is brand new, installed by the previous owners mechanic. I am wondering if there is sort of a break in period? I did not start the bike since the clutch didn't disengage so perhaps being a wet clutch I just need to fire it up to jog it loose? Thanks guys! I'm taking another crack at this on Friday when I have more time. Burns: I will try this trick as well! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum CEO HispanicSlammer Posted April 15, 2015 Forum CEO Share Posted April 15, 2015 1) bleeding you have explored this and so I would cross that out, it could possibly be a bad seal in the master cylinder or slave- 2) the pushrod might not be seated properly, or the slave might not be bolted down flush and proper. 3) clutch pads are supposed to be soaked in oil before install they might be stuck to the plates. 4) you might have a bad clutch throw out bearing 5) the clutch plates might not have been installed in the correct order, there is a curved plate on the bottom of the basket that can be installed out of order or backwards, its like a spring that helps engagement and disengagement, anybody can make a mistake. I think you might have to open up the case and have it inspected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeromagic Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I'd start it up for sure, especially if it's been sitting for a while. Hope you get it solved... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 15, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 15, 2015 What HS said... clutch disks need to be soaked in oil prior to install and there is a specific install order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 16, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 16, 2015 fwiw, I just did a quick rebuild of my clutch slave... could NOT get the air out of the system... tried a mity vac, and the usual tricks. Finally, i took the slave off, and pushed the piston in.. Vola. got some bubbles pushed up into the master reservoir, and then I could get the remaining out in the traditional bleeding fashion.. ymmv. I did try this but will try again. Thanks Burns! 1) bleeding you have explored this and so I would cross that out, it could possibly be a bad seal in the master cylinder or slave- 2) the pushrod might not be seated properly, or the slave might not be bolted down flush and proper. 3) clutch pads are supposed to be soaked in oil before install they might be stuck to the plates. 4) you might have a bad clutch throw out bearing 5) the clutch plates might not have been installed in the correct order, there is a curved plate on the bottom of the basket that can be installed out of order or backwards, its like a spring that helps engagement and disengagement, anybody can make a mistake. I think you might have to open up the case and have it inspected. 1. It's been bled by two people now and the lever feels good. 2. I did pull the slave and it seems to be seated well as is the rod. The piston moves freely. 3. I think this is the answer. I didn't start the bike and I bet if I rock it a bit the clutch will free right up. At least I'm hoping! 4. The clutch worked when I picked up the bike from the mechanic. A 75 mile ride with the end being NYC start and stop for 30 minutes. I am believing it's just a little stuck. I read up on freeing a stuck clutch. I really appreciate all of the advice guys. Such a nice community we have here. I'l know Friday and report here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer enuf Posted April 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 16, 2015 another thing to check, MC has a tiny second bleed hole under a small plug on my 2000, my buddy had a similar clutch problem and using a small drill to clean out the crude and this solved the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 16, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 16, 2015 another thing to check, MC has a tiny second bleed hole under a small plug on my 2000, my buddy had a similar clutch problem and using a small drill to clean out the crude and this solved the problem Will check as well! Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted April 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 16, 2015 another thing to check, MC has a tiny second bleed hole under a small plug on my 2000, my buddy had a similar clutch problem and using a small drill to clean out the crude and this solved the problem Will check as well! Much appreciated. Maybe use a guitar string to clean out the return hole. Very commonly used when cleaning carb jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer adeyren Posted April 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 16, 2015 Im betting on the clutch is stuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 20, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 20, 2015 So as it turns out I believe what I really needed to do was just start the bike! Ha Ha Ha! The clutch was installed about a week ago and I think it is so new it just needed some oil sloshed on it. The mechanic told me there was no way the clutch was slightly stuck and this distracted me into bleeding it 50 ways. I did check and clear the return pin-hole and then I did a reverse bleed. The reverse bleed is genius. The lever got up to firmness immediately! I am part of a garage in NYC that allows you to work on bikes but we are not allowed to start the bikes inside. I rolled the bike out (the clutch would not let go still even with rocking the bike) and fired it up. I pulled in the clutch and put it in gear and it worked! Damn. Such a simple thing. Read all about it here: http://www.joepopp.net/poppoveramerica/the-zen-of-clutch-repair-and-lucky-shoes/ Thanks so much for all of the suggestions and help! You guys are the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted April 20, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted April 20, 2015 "The reverse bleed is genius." Works every time for me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer joepopp Posted April 21, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted April 21, 2015 "The reverse bleed is genius." Works every time for me . Now in my arsenal Switchblade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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