Guest schmittx Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I've been doing some research into a front fork conversion (yes, I've read most of the threads already) for my '06 VFR ABS and am trying to stay within the Honda parts family as I get a very nice discount on their parts. So far, I haven't seen anyone that's tried to keep ABS while swapping the forks. Has anyone looked deeply into this? I think the original ABS ring could be mounted fairly easily on a new wheel and same for the sensor on a new fork (I'd plan to CNC a custom bracket/adapters for both of these). Does anyone know if the stock VFR ABS calipers are physically different from the non-ABS calipers at all (besides the color)? I'm leaning towards an RC51 fork w/ custom radial adapters to run the 600/1000RR Tokico calipers, I'd think you could just use standard calipers and retain ABS as long as they're plumbed into the ABS pump like normal, right? Regarding the linked brakes, losing those doesn't really bother me so much, so I'm just assuming I'd delink them. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Should be doable. Keep us posted w/pics!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 1, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 1, 2012 Guess there's a bunch of research to be done. It would be even easier if you could just swap the forks and keep the VFR wheel. You didn't mention what wheel you were going to put on there. I don't think the VFR rotors swap over to many other bikes though. Why bother with the adaptors to make conventional brakes have radial mountings? Why not save the headache and just use what calipers come with the forks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest schmittx Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm not certain on which wheel yet...I believe everyone else just uses RC51 wheel/rotors/calipers. I agree that it'd be nice to use the VFR wheel, might just need to sort out the rotors then to make it work with the RC51 forks/calipers? As for the radial adapters, the 600/1000RR calipers are much bigger and I like the project aspect of it so that's my main motivation. We'll see though, that might be a "phase 2" of sorts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 1, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 1, 2012 But will the rotors still fit the calipers once you have your adaptor? That would be my first concern. They are 320mm. Think the VFRs are 296mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 But will the rotors still fit the calipers once you have your adaptor? That would be my first concern. They are 320mm. Think the VFRs are 296mm. He doesn't need to use VFR rotors, just be able to mount the Pulse Ring on whatever rotors he uses! I don't think the calipers play a role in the ABS system, but not sure on that. I think that starting with a ABS bike is the biggest key, everything else should be very doable! BR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 1, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 1, 2012 He doesn't need to use VFR rotors, just be able to mount the Pulse Ring on whatever rotors he uses! I don't think the calipers play a role in the ABS system, but not sure on that. That was more along the lines if he used the VFR wheel on the RC51 forks. But not sure if the wheel IDs are the same. If they swap over, then your only worry is making sure your calipers match the rotors. Think the axles are different sizes anyways, so it wouldn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NakedViffer Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) More than likely whatever front end he is using has calipers spaced for rotors bigger than the VFR ones anyway. Probably not worth relocating the calipers too, just to accomodate older braking components. I don't think the calipers matter for the ABS system either. I mean, I'm not intimate with the VFR ABS system, but if its anything like their cars, you can run whatever rotor/caliper combo you want so long as you have the slotted wheel and sensor hooked up. I would want to take full advantage of the upgrade over the VFR stuff and use what are most likely bigger, better rotors. Edited June 1, 2012 by NakedViffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted June 2, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 2, 2012 I don't know anything about ABS systems, but it would not surprise me to learn that they were carefully calibrated to work with (and only with) the OEM calipers and rotors. Sure, if you swap everything so that the hydraulics function, the system might work just fine. Or it might be the same as having no ABS at all. Hey, its only your front brakes--what could possibly go wrong? If it were my life on the line, I'd definitely do more research... Ciao, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest schmittx Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 More than likely whatever front end he is using has calipers spaced for rotors bigger than the VFR ones anyway. Probably not worth relocating the calipers too, just to accomodate older braking components. I don't think the calipers matter for the ABS system either. I mean, I'm not intimate with the VFR ABS system, but if its anything like their cars, you can run whatever rotor/caliper combo you want so long as you have the slotted wheel and sensor hooked up. I would want to take full advantage of the upgrade over the VFR stuff and use what are most likely bigger, better rotors. That's what I was thinking in regards to the ABS and calipers...people throw big brake kits on cars w/ ABS all the time so I'd think the same theory applies to bikes. I'm thinking it'll be easiest to use an entire RC51 front end (wheel/rotors/fender/forks) and then design some exclusive adapters to convert to radial calipers. I can make the adapters whatever size I need them to be to fit the larger RC51 rotor and I can also incorporate a mounting feature for the VFR wheel speed sensor. Lastly, I'll need some small flange adapter to bolt the VFR wheel speed slotted ring to the RC51 rotor. I'm a design engineer for an automotive OEM by day so all of this CAD work is fun stuff for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted June 9, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2012 That's what I was thinking in regards to the ABS and calipers...people throw big brake kits on cars w/ ABS all the time so I'd think the same theory applies to bikes. I certainly wouldn't expect what works for cars would necessarily work with bikes... They're slightly different machines, you know.Ciao, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer CornerCarver Posted June 9, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2012 I am inclined to agree with you on the ABS needing only to know the difference in speed of the wheels related to each other and then having the proper ecm and hydraulic inputs regardless of caliper and rotor sizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 9, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2012 RC51 brakes are pretty sweet as is! 4 pot Nissin's do the job. Some argue that the radial 4 piston Tokico are not a better caliper, but I don't know for sure. I'm no engineer, but it seems to me the calipers are mounted to adapters, which are not radially mounted to the forks. So you don't get any of the benefits of radial mounting calipers. The adapters still will allow flex under braking forces. IMHO the only reason to mount adapters is aesthetics. If that's what you're after, more power to ya! Radial Brembo master cylinder with the stock RC51 setup, however... There's your bigest gain. Sorry, I have no experience with ABS. So nothing definitive to add there. Does it make a difference to the ABS system if there are no longer all the extra hoses, pistons, and PCV associated with the stock linked system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I tend to disagree it is a simple procedure, the abs system is designed to work with the link brake system which has a certain fluid capacity & extra proportional valves. The size or caliper pistons & fluid volume has a impact on the piston size used in master cylinders & my limited understanding of abs is to release pressure there is a release piston. What determines that piston sizing so the brakes don't release to much pressure & then when reapply add to much pressure. Both linked brake master cylinders have to be replaced when you do fork upgrade & delink brakes & then you will need to run lines into abs system so the total fluid volume will change in a major way as well as forces applied in braking system front/rear. Granted I maybe wrong & the only way to know is either have all the tech data on the VFR system & changes your going to make & do the math or experiment which could be costly when you add all the modifications needed to find it doesn't work or worst case find it doesn't work on the road in an emergency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted June 10, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 10, 2012 You make a good point. You would have to keep the original VFR braking system to get around that factor. Otherwise it is a gamble. Or the total brake piston area would have to be the same, or close to it. The entire caliper is filled with fluid, so volume isn't the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted June 10, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 10, 2012 And you also make a good point! Fluid "volume" is not really relevant in hydraulics. However, I would say that the level of complexity in an ABS system vs a standard brake system is much greater. I went a little way towards doing a fork upgrade on my ST1300A, but decided to stop when I started to understand how much engineering had gone into the ABS system I was hoping to retain (in a now de-linked environment). I realised that I was never going to be confident enough in that kind of hybrid ABS system (and that was "just" a touring bike). Swapping the complete ABS system from a CBR1000RRA might be an option (for a VFR), but there's still the difference in weight and the location of that weight to consider. Ciao, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted June 10, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted June 10, 2012 And you also make a good point! Fluid "volume" is not really relevant in hydraulics. However, I would say that the level of complexity in an ABS system vs a standard brake system is much greater. I went a little way towards doing a fork upgrade on my ST1300A, but decided to stop when I started to understand how much engineering had gone into the ABS system I was hoping to retain (in a now de-linked environment). I realised that I was never going to be confident enough in that kind of hybrid ABS system (and that was "just" a touring bike). Swapping the complete ABS system from a CBR1000RRA might be an option (for a VFR), but there's still the difference in weight and the location of that weight to consider. Ciao, Or the VFR1200. (Parts are going to be super expensive, though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zRoYz Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Volume is probably the wrong word, when I used that term I was referring to the fluid movement needed to function the different piston sizes to designed force required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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