Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 EVERYTHING WRITTEN HERE IS WRONG!!! Move on, people. Ok here's an interesting quote regarding 1.6 ohm coils, found on some random forum: A coil that is intended to be used with a ballast resistor has approximately half the resistance of a non-ballast coil. The reason for using a coil and ballast set up is to give you a stronger spark at start up. The ballast coil is essentially a 6 volt coil and the ballast is there to give it a 6 volt supply in normal running. When you start the engine, the ballast is bypassed and the full 12 volts is applied to the coil giving roughly twice the output voltage. This helps cold starting. The fact that these are 6 volt coils is kinda what I was thinking, although I was thinking 5 volts rather than 6 (hey, I'm an IT guy and it's 12 and 5 volts inside PCs). So it looks like you've just chucked a ballast resistor-type coil onto a non-ballast ignition system. I'm not sure what the correct course of action is, but I'd wager that right now you are at risk of frying your ECU. Also, you're probably burning out the spark plug electrodes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) I'll bust out the gsxr wiring schematics and see if they're running parallel or not. I've looked at the fische and it doesnt seem to have a separate wire harness for just the coils. Seems to be wired straight into the main harness. The 6th gens seem to have the green wires tied together and the Bl/W wires. The different colored wires (positives) are all separate. On the 5th gens the Bl/W wires are tied together and the colored wires (positives) are separate. No 3rd green wires on 5th gens. Edited July 25, 2011 by Ranger77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 Have a look at this thread and let me know if anything rings a bell: http://www.zxrworld.co.uk/zxr400oc/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7367&sid=14a3ead772aa3156a8009ba73cb59548 He can't do that because that diagram is for a wasted spark system, and the VFR800 is not wasted spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'll bust out the gsxr wiring schematics and see if they're running parallel or not. I've looked at the fische and it doesnt seem to have a separate wire harness for just the coils. Seems to be wired straight into the main harness. Everything below here is wrong also! They're probably wired the same as a VFR800, but are likely 6 volt coils rather than 12 volt. Seriously I would stop right now before you blow up your ECU, and go do more research. Maybe ballast resistors is all you will need, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 The 6th gens seem to have the green wires tied together and the Bl/W wires. The different colored wires (positives) are all separate. The different coloured wires are the trigger wires; all others are in parallel on the same circuit as the coil is constant powered with the transistor in the coil head doing the switching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I wouldnt think adding resistance to these would be good since the service manual calls for 1.1 - 1.9 ohms. I would think running them at 3 ohms would burn them up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I wouldnt think adding resistance to these would be good since the service manual calls for 1.1 - 1.9 ohms. I would think running them at 3 ohms would burn them up? No, added resistance before the load won't affect the load (the coil) aside from diminish how much voltage it's getting. The only thing I'm not sure about is the exact effect on this particular coil. All the stuff below? ALSO WRONG! Since you say that the source bike does not use a wasted spark system, I would say these are designed to operate with a ballast resistor to drop the source voltage from 12 volts down to 6, with a temporary bypass for a 12 volt kick during starting. If they are 6-volt coils (and I reckon they are), then right now you are: Burning out the CDI transistors The 12 volt CDI transistors are not rated to the 7 amps your new coils are asking of them. You're damaging them every time you run the engine. Burning out the coil The coil is designed to deliver ~30,000 volts based on a 6-volt primary field winding. You are doubling that. I don't know if this means you're generating 60,000 volts (probably not, but I'm not that awesome with the electrical theory). This may or may not be burning out the coil windings, much like how our stators tend to burn out from too much current and heat. Burning out the spark plug electrodes The higher spark voltage might consume the electrode material rapidly. My disclaimer is that I am not 100% sure about the last two points. I could be wrong about higher input voltage on the primary winding affecting voltage generated by the secondary winding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'm a tad confused on how the stock coils could be 6v when the whole system is 12v. The color wires go straight to the ecm and the bl/w run of into the harness tieing into other sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'm a tad confused on how the stock coils could be 6v when the whole system is 12v. The color wires go straight to the ecm and the bl/w run of into the harness tieing into other sensors. I'm SO WRONNNNNG. The ECU would be delivering 6 volts rather than 12 volts to them. Much like how the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) and MAP sensor are given a 5 volt reference signal by the ECU. In the case of the TPS and MAP, the ECU would use linear voltage regulators, but in the case of the coils it's probably using ballast resistors (on bikes that use 6 volt coils). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 Alright. I'll test that tomorrow. This is too much fun to just give up. I've never exceeded without failing. If I had ever stopped before my vehicle and bikes wouldn't be where they are today nor my brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I wonder if cbr1000 or 600rr stick coils are 12v and the correct ohms? WhAt did you say, 3.2 ohms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 Alright. I'll test that tomorrow. This is too much fun to just give up. I've never exceeded without failing. If I had ever stopped before my vehicle and bikes wouldn't be where they are today nor my brain. Oh, please keep going! If I sounded negative today it was just so you didn't accidentally fry your electrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I wonder if cbr1000 or 600rr stick coils are 12v and the correct ohms? WhAt did you say, 3.2 ohms? Yeah 3.2 ohms. I'll test mine tonight on my CBR 1000RR (if I can get to it) and the VFR too. My oscilloscope will arrive today as well, so I can use that to tell you exactly how many volts they're getting. Wheeee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I emailed a guy with an '04 F4i to see what his are. I asked him to also see if you could get a multimeter to a coil to see what voltage they're getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks Kaldek. Team work is the shizzel. I got an engineer or something on another forum and he's just being a HUGE dick about this. Edited July 25, 2011 by Ranger77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thanks Kaldek. Team work is the shizzel. I got an engineer or something on another forum and he's just being a HUGE dick about this. Do you know what the most effective contraceptive for an engineer is? -his personality 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks Kaldek. Team work is the shizzel. I got an engineer or something on another forum and he's just being a HUGE dick about this. Do you know what the most effective contraceptive for an engineer is? -his personality Haha. It took him a bout a week or so to realize it was me in the vids. One guy posted pretty much the same thing you did. For someone to be an engineer this guy sure is anti-touch this or that. Edited July 25, 2011 by Ranger77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 OK, I've measured both of my bikes. The CBR1000RR has 1.6 ohm resistance on the primary windings (between the pins). The VFR appears to be unmeasurable due to the fact that it uses a transistor; the readings were either 50Kohms or 1Kohm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thanks Kaldek. Team work is the shizzel. I got an engineer or something on another forum and he's just being a HUGE dick about this. Do you know what the most effective contraceptive for an engineer is? -his personality Haha. It took him a bout a week or so to realize it was me in the vids. One guy posted pretty much the same thing you did. For someone to be an engineer this guy sure is anti-touch this or that. That's because someone engineered it perfectly, and you're just mucking it up! Check out the CBR stuff. Like I mentioned earlier, I know that some RC51 guys have done this with the CBR stick coils, and the RC51 and Fifth Gens share a lot of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Great project and discussion going on here! If anyone would like to toss out some fact and/or theory about putting COP's to use on a 4th gen, I'd love to hear it. Been wanting to do this for quite a while! The 4th gen has 4 individual coils, so it stands to reason that if I get COP's that have the same resistance as my existing coils, and have a 2-wire setup, that it will work as stock? I don't need extra performance(would be nice though), but I sure don't want to lose any. I like the idea because the sticks are lighter, and it will save me a TON of space! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 Check out the CBR stuff. Like I mentioned earlier, I know that some RC51 guys have done this with the CBR stick coils, and the RC51 and Fifth Gens share a lot of things. Im sure both stock coils work but if theyre using cbr coils then theyre probably the same as my gsxr sticks seeing that kaldek got the same 1.6 ohm reading. I'll just need to mosy on over to a rc51 forum and do some sneaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasthecook Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Check out some of these threads from Speedzilla... http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/rc51-technical-discussion/60354-cbr600rr-coil-mod-wiring.html http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/rc51-technical-discussion/50381-cbr-coil-conversion.html http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/rc51-technical-discussion/44187-removing-coils-wire-coil.html http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/ducati-superbikes/56121-coil-over-plugs-working-748-s4rs.html http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/rc51-technical-discussion/65576-denso-plugs-w-cbr-coil-mod.html Not all may apply, but there should be useful info in those threads. The RC-51 uses pretty much the same coils as the 4th Gens (don't know exact specs), and the RC-51 guys do this mod rather frequently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I plan on using the CBR600RR stick coils on my 4th gen project, the stock 4th gen coils measure 3.2 ohms on the primary side, 07 CBR600RR coils are 1.6 ohms on the primary. Secondary side of both coils is a lot closer, can't remember exactly what the resistance numbers are off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'm thinking you may have to run the coils in series like those guys did with the ZXR, you would then only need to use two coil drivers, and run it as a wasted spark system. Just make sure you get the correct coils paired up! I don't think the ECU/CDI in these bikes are smart enough to know you're not using two of the coil drivers, could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'm thinking you may have to run the coils in series like those guys did with the ZXR, you would then only need to use two coil drivers, and run it as a wasted spark system. Just make sure you get the correct coils paired up! I don't think the ECU/CDI in these bikes are smart enough to know you're not using two of the coil drivers, could be wrong though. That being said, I think I remember reading somewhere that the 5th gen had individual cylinder timing, maybe it was fuel trim...can't remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.