Member Contributer syjang40 Posted June 7, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi folks. I need some help here. After doing a 929 shock install on my 5th gen, I decided to go with Race Tech 0.9 kg/mm springs and compression Gold Valves for the forks. All went well until I tried to remove the fork tube Allen bolt from the right fork. It just spins very freely. I had no problem removing it from the left fork. I have tried removing it with the spring installed and compressed to add some friction. I have tried with an impact driver and with an impact gun. The darn thing just spins!. What are my options here?. Is there a special tool to hold whatever (cartridge?) is spinning way down there ?. I know there is one for inverted forks but is there one for conventional forks?. What would a shop do that I haven't already tried?. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted June 7, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi folks. I need some help here. After doing a 929 shock install on my 5th gen, I decided to go with Race Tech 0.9 kg/mm springs and compression Gold Valves for the forks. All went well until I tried to remove the fork tube Allen bolt from the right fork. It just spins very freely. I had no problem removing it from the left fork. I have tried removing it with the spring installed and compressed to add some friction. I have tried with an impact driver and with an impact gun. The darn thing just spins!. What are my options here?. Is there a special tool to hold whatever (cartridge?) is spinning way down there ?. I know there is one for inverted forks but is there one for conventional forks?. What would a shop do that I haven't already tried?. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers!. Just call Race Tech. They were very helpful to me when I did my forks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi folks. I need some help here. After doing a 929 shock install on my 5th gen, I decided to go with Race Tech 0.9 kg/mm springs and compression Gold Valves for the forks. All went well until I tried to remove the fork tube Allen bolt from the right fork. It just spins very freely. I had no problem removing it from the left fork. I have tried removing it with the spring installed and compressed to add some friction. I have tried with an impact driver and with an impact gun. The darn thing just spins!. What are my options here?. Is there a special tool to hold whatever (cartridge?) is spinning way down there ?. I know there is one for inverted forks but is there one for conventional forks?. What would a shop do that I haven't already tried?. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers!. that normal, it takes a special tool to hold the internals or it just spins, best to break loose while spring is in , but dont remove with full tension put it back together and take and let them hit it with impact , since you already did that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer keithbob Posted June 7, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 7, 2009 The darn thing just spins!. What are my options here? Second time I rebuilt the forks, I broke them loose with the springs in, no problem. The first time, I removed the springs first, and had your same trouble. This was my super ham-fisted solution: I cut two long, narrow softwood wedges about 2 feet long, shaved to a fine but strong point. Inserted them down between the slider and the internal tube and gently wedged them in. I put the hex-bit in a drill to spin it hard, and this broke the factory thread-locker and allowed me to pull the bolts. No damage or distortion to anything. Not a great technique, but it worked. Try breaking them loose with the springs in and capped down, you should be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer syjang40 Posted June 8, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2009 The darn thing just spins!. What are my options here? Second time I rebuilt the forks, I broke them loose with the springs in, no problem. The first time, I removed the springs first, and had your same trouble. This was my super ham-fisted solution: I cut two long, narrow softwood wedges about 2 feet long, shaved to a fine but strong point. Inserted them down between the slider and the internal tube and gently wedged them in. I put the hex-bit in a drill to spin it hard, and this broke the factory thread-locker and allowed me to pull the bolts. No damage or distortion to anything. Not a great technique, but it worked. Try breaking them loose with the springs in and capped down, you should be able to do it. Thanks for the idea but let me put this out to you folks. As mentioned in my first post, I was able to get the the left fork apart. Upon closer examination on how it works, I believe the compression valve is spinning within the fork damper along with bottom Allen bolt. I can't imagine any tool that will hold the compression valve from spinning since it is only held radially by an O-ring and located inside the damper tube. If this is the case...am I looking at somehow machining the head of the Allen bolt off as my only option?. btw, when I said the Allen bolt spins freely, I feel very very little resistance..similar to spinning an O-ring. My concern is, if I'm correct about this, repeated attempts(spinning) might score the inside of the damper tube by the compression valve. Comments anyone ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Did you compress the fork when you had the spring installed? You actually want to extend the fork and pull on the top out spring. If you don't still have the fork on the bike reinstall it, the spring and all the internal parts. Crank in the preload all the way and partially install the axle, leaving enough room for an allen wrench/socket. Pull down on the fork with the axle while turning the bolt with the allen wrench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Boy Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is a Honda special tool with long handle for holding the internals. Looking down the tube inside there is a piece with a hole in it the has facets to it. Another trick I recently used was to stick a wooden broom handle and push it into this hole to hold it. Then use an impact driver to break the allan screw loose. I had no impact driver so I hit the allan wrench with a hammer to give it a sharp blow to break loose the screw. Pushing harder on the broom handle to get better grip. It worked for me. If all else fails take it to a Honda shop that has the tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Before you pay someone(if you have the time to do this) - just buy another bolt. Drill the existing one out by drilling the head off. The whole cartridge will pull out, and then you can very easily turn the body of the bolt out. I had to do that once with a bolt that was stripped by a previous owner. I know it sounds like a brutal thing to do, but I guarantee you that it's better than breaking the bolt off below the first run of thread in the cartridge!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer keithbob Posted June 8, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2009 btw, when I said the Allen bolt spins freely, I feel very very little resistance..similar to spinning an O-ring. My concern is, if I'm correct about this, repeated attempts(spinning) might score the inside of the damper tube by the compression valve.Comments anyone ?. Right, that's what happens. It spins very freely, and so you've go to stop the rotation. Slowf2337 and Bad Boy both have possible solutions, too, and if you can stop the rotation you could drill it as Seb suggests. I've had to use extractors on these in really bad cases after stripping the hex-head. Not good. I'd like to see that special tool, might make life lots easier doing this next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Right, that's what happens. It spins very freely, and so you've go to stop the rotation. Slowf2337 and Bad Boy both have possible solutions, too, and if you can stop the rotation you could drill it as Seb suggests. I've had to use extractors on these in really bad cases after stripping the hex-head. Not good.I'd like to see that special tool, might make life lots easier doing this next time. He should be able to set the impact wrench to tighten, and once snugged up the drill will work to keep the bolt tight as the head comes off(clockwise). :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Boy Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The allen screw threads into an internal piece that is free to rotate. When the screw is tight it cinches up the internal piece to the outer fork body so it will not rotate. Therefore the screw must be already loose if it freely rotates. It should not take much torque to get the screw out if it is already loose. That is why a broom handle often works. You just need to provide enough resistance with the broom handle to back the screw out. Lock tight is often used so there will be some resistance to over come holding the internal part with the broom handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JamieDaugherty Posted June 8, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2009 Try breaking them loose with the springs in and capped down, you should be able to do it. Good suggestion, this works sometimes but not always. It's usually more successful with newer forks like those in question than old, corroded ones. He should be able to set the impact wrench to tighten, and once snugged up the drill will work to keep the bolt tight as the head comes off(clockwise). :biggrin: The best way to solve this is with an impact, but the other way around. Just pull out on the damping rod tube to put a little resistance on the cartidge assembly then hit it with the impact and it should spin out. The only time I ever drill out the bolt is when the hex strips.... which happens sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted June 8, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted June 8, 2009 The only time I ever drill out the bolt is when the hex strips.... which happens sometimes. ...because those bolts are special "shallow-head" cap screws, which means there is less for the Allen wrench to grip, so whatever method you use for disassembly (the air-impact hammer is the best, with the fork under tension, not compression), as mentioned above, make sure the hex bit is properly seated in the screw head before you apply the torque... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer syjang40 Posted June 9, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 9, 2009 The only time I ever drill out the bolt is when the hex strips.... which happens sometimes. ...because those bolts are special "shallow-head" cap screws, which means there is less for the Allen wrench to grip, so whatever method you use for disassembly (the air-impact hammer is the best, with the fork under tension, not compression), as mentioned above, make sure the hex bit is properly seated in the screw head before you apply the torque... Ciao, Got it out!!. Thanks for all your suggestions guys !. The problem was that my air impact gun did not have enough bpm (impacts or beats per minute). A local shop had a small Snap-On unit which, according to the tech there, puts out 500 bpm but not a lot of torque. It's amazing that it spun it out in mere seconds without an aid of an internal holding tool considering that the internals spun so freely. The lesson here is...get the right tool to do the job if possible. It makes life easier. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Feels good when that "pucker" goes away doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_Cote Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Another option for easier future removal of allen bolt is this modification. Go back to this old thread and scroll down to my cartridge pictures. A picture is worth a thousand. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...c=36818&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer syjang40 Posted June 19, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted June 19, 2009 Another option for easier future removal of allen bolt is this modification.Go back to this old thread and scroll down to my cartridge pictures. A picture is worth a thousand. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...c=36818&hl= Excellent idea!!. I'll just file it my "Great VFR Ideas" folder. Thanks!! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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