Guest blackbuell Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 As a preventative measure I installed an upgraded R/R on my '98. The bike ran fine for several days, but after a spirited ride, I pulled off the seat and smelled burning rubber. Took off the rear cowl and noticed that the connector between the R/R and the stator was badly melted. The new R/R was replaced under warranty. I put in the replacement unit and checked it out; I noticed that the yellow stator wires and the new connector that I installed were getting hot when the engine was running. Next step: installed Tightwad's VFRness. Problem remains. I reinstalled the OEM R/R: same problem. I also noticed that the yellow wires on the R/R side of the connector got hot while the engine is running. Next steps: 1. will switch batteries with my other VFR 2. will put in a new connector between the R/R and the wiring harness. For those of you who have had a similar problem, what turned out to be the culprit? Any suggestions for what I should try next to solve this problem? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinith Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 That happened to me around Christmas, a few months after putting a new OEM R/R on it. I just bridged the molten part with by soldering some bigger wires in place of the stator wires, but I didn't go all the way back to the stator due to time/workplace constraints and haven't noticed any problems since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttlepimp Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Used a wire block to reconnect where the connector was removed. When after reading it on this site (thanyouverymuch) that this was a weak link in the system. Connector hadn't completely melted down but shown all the signs of getting ready to and have not had an RR problem since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I started a thread discussing how to handle this very issue...and the image above seems to be the best non-permanent way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I started a thread discussing how to handle this very issue...and the image above seems to be the best non-permanent way to do it. I ended up just splicing the wires for now. Is that going to be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted May 4, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2009 Sounds like the exact problem I am having. Replaced the R/R with new oem plus VFRness. 3 yellow wires burnished and fused together plus connector melting. seperated wires and wrapped several layers of electrical tape to insulate and seperate them. The wire blocks above are going in before my next ride along with a voltmeter. Someone told me it was the starter relay that causes this. I'll try the block first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted May 4, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2009 I started a thread discussing how to handle this very issue...and the image above seems to be the best non-permanent way to do it. I ended up just splicing the wires for now. Is that going to be a problem? Soldered I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted May 4, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2009 Mr.RC45's quick disconnect was so bad that it about turned my prize into a crispy critter... I replaced the faulty Honda R/R with a YAMAHA R1 2004-2006 p/n 5VY-81960-00-00 I cut and solder the wires directly and seal with heat shrink tubing... Yamaha R/R and custom billet aluminum bracket... it runs cool and puts out a steady 14.1 volts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Mercy Larry, not an R/R off a Stinky Inline-4???? What's next? Cats and Dogs living together???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 If you do the EXACT same mod to a good Honda R/R it gives the same results. Yamaha doesn't have any special black magic in their R/Rs, they just use different connection types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Before I make any more changes, I would like to find out if there is some other possible cause of this besides just poor contact at the connectors. I don't want a repeat. Capt. Bob--do you have any more info on how the starter relay might the source of this? Anybody else have any comment? When I first installed the upgraded R/R, I saw no problem with the connectors. So why would they suddenly become problematic? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 If you do the EXACT same mod to a good Honda R/R it gives the same results. Yamaha doesn't have any special black magic in their R/Rs, they just use different connection types. I did the mod to 2 different RC45 R/R... but all I showed going into the battery was 12.4 V at idle and 12.1 V at 5,000 rpms... my charging system would operate as a total lost system... I installed the Yamaha R/R and got 14.1 idle and 14.1 at 5,000 rpm... I also replaced the stator once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 Mercy Larry, not an R/R off a Stinky Inline-4????What's next? Cats and Dogs living together???? Yep... I'll use any part from any manufacture if I think it holds an advantage... the growing list... 3.5 x 17 magnesium Marchesini off Wayne Rainey's TZ 250... CMC brake disc for a Ducati 998R... Brembo billet calipers for a GSXR1000 Superbike Ohlins forks for an R1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 If you do the EXACT same mod to a good Honda R/R it gives the same results. Yamaha doesn't have any special black magic in their R/Rs, they just use different connection types. I did the mod to 2 different RC45 R/R... but all I showed going into the battery was 12.4 V at idle and 12.1 V at 5,000 rpms... my charging system would operate as a total lost system... I installed the Yamaha R/R and got 14.1 idle and 14.1 at 5,000 rpm... I also replaced the stator once... If this was the case then those R/Rs were bad...which I can see given the history of the bike...it wasn't designed for street riding, including the complex lighting and power systems that must be present. This may be where the updated (R1 R/R in your case) regulator shined through. I shudder to think what would happen if we all went back to the early 70's charging systems, and still wanted to use our heated gear, 55w x 4 lights, etc. I don't believe racing bikes have progressed as much in the charging systems and street bikes have had to, at least not until computer controls became more common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 Before I make any more changes, I would like to find out if there is some other possible cause of this besides just poor contact at the connectors. I don't want a repeat.Capt. Bob--do you have any more info on how the starter relay might the source of this? Anybody else have any comment? When I first installed the upgraded R/R, I saw no problem with the connectors. So why would they suddenly become problematic? Jon It's a 20 something dollar part that a 4th gen rider swears solved the problem. i've since heard the connection is the real killer. The 4th gen guy said he regularly uses dialectric grease on the connectors as routine maint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Before I make any more changes, I would like to find out if there is some other possible cause of this besides just poor contact at the connectors. I don't want a repeat.Capt. Bob--do you have any more info on how the starter relay might the source of this? Anybody else have any comment? When I first installed the upgraded R/R, I saw no problem with the connectors. So why would they suddenly become problematic? Jon I am curious why this seems to happen with R/R changes as well...either disconnecting the connector causes the problem (disturbing a "good" connection and possibly creating a weak one maybe?), or the new R/R has something internal that creates more stress and the smaller wires on the OEM stator can't take the pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I am curious why this seems to happen with R/R changes as well...either disconnecting the connector causes the problem (disturbing a "good" connection and possibly creating a weak one maybe?), or the new R/R has something internal that creates more stress and the smaller wires on the OEM stator can't take the pressure. Tightwad, I wondered about the latter, so I reinstalled the original R/R, which was OK when I replaced it as a precaution. However, the heating problem with the stator wires and connector got worse. Additionally, the yellow wires on the R/R side of the connector with the stator are also getting hot. Would that be the case if the underlying problem was with the connector? Wouldn't the heating problem be confined to the bad connection and to the wires on the stator side of it? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer swas Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 The reason all these things go haywire can be a bit of a chicken and egg thing. However, for the connector to burn up the way they do they develop a high resistance joint which normal current can make them go brown to black to burnt. Once there is a brown tinge in the connector colour it is too late to remedy the situation with some contact cleaning and sealing. Or if there is extra current due to, extra equipment, or a crook battery sucking juice, or in some models bad earths which cause the RR to raise the volts to too high a level, or even a faulty RR, which leads to excess current flowing - the connector may develop high resistance which leads eventually to failure. Any or all of the above may also lead to stator, RR, or battery failures and is why you see so many posts where eventually all 3 have to be replaced. Due to my own sequence of problems I believe this connector partly failing or fully failing leads to an RR failure, can't theorize that one, just experienced it. A voltmeter of some kind can indicate problems developing in the charging circuit leading to early fault finding minimizing the damage and peace of mind when things are working OK. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Adam30 Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 Even though ive got a 6th gen, this issue came up with mine last summer. Sitting at a stop light, warmer temps with the fan running and i believe the high beams. Started to smell something funny, so took it down here to the shop right away. That same connector had started to melt... I went searching for others whod had this, or some answers. Didnt come up with much, other than to just replace the connector. But, this didnt seem like the right fix. I called Ricks Motorsports Electrics, and he had advised me to get rid of the connector and directly connect the wires together by staggering the connections, soldering and heatshrinking them. I did do that, which eliminated the connector. This was after i replaced the stator and RR just to cover my bases. The charging system's been fine (14.0v all the time, except when idling with highbeams and/or fan running). But, the wiring going to the stator still gets warm....which i never totally felt comfortable with. But, after many saying that this could be considered "normal" to an extent, ive just basically forgotten about it, mainly since that was about 10k miles ago and have had zero issues. I still dont like the warm wire thing, but im not sure what else to do about it... I also installed a digital volt meter late last summer too....its nice to have, and nice to have something to look at to tell you what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer elizilla Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 I've heard that it reduces the stress on the R/R (and on that wiring) if you run driving lights or heated gear or something, to consume the extra power rather than dumping it to the R/R to be bled off as heat. This technique seemed to work for me on my V65 Sabres. All three of them came to me with signs of excess heat in that connector, it looked slightly tan and crispy. The first one blew the R/R and that was when I learned to watch for this problem. I never changed any of the connectors, never replaced an R/R after the first one. I just ran driving lights and heated gear to consume the power, carried a spare R/R in the tail with my tire kit, and kept an eye on the situation. All three bikes went over 100K like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Thanks for all the feedback; I hope more continues to come in. I'll start by directly connecting the stator wires to the wires on the R/R and see what happens. I guess the next step would be to replace the stator. Excuse my ignorance, but what did swas mean by "bad earths"? Does that mean a problem with a ground wire? How do I check that? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I've heard that it reduces the stress on the R/R (and on that wiring) if you run driving lights or heated gear or something, to consume the extra power rather than dumping it to the R/R to be bled off as heat. This technique seemed to work for me on my V65 Sabres. All three of them came to me with signs of excess heat in that connector, it looked slightly tan and crispy. The first one blew the R/R and that was when I learned to watch for this problem. I never changed any of the connectors, never replaced an R/R after the first one. I just ran driving lights and heated gear to consume the power, carried a spare R/R in the tail with my tire kit, and kept an eye on the situation. All three bikes went over 100K like that. I tried the heated gear option....not so fun at 105 degrees while wearing leathers in stop and go traffic...:ph34r: There is actually merit to this idea. Having a high ouput charging system on a motorcycle is a double edged sword...nice for when you are using up the power, but tough on the system that has to dump the excess when you don't need it. Now Triump appears to use an Alternator like a car does, at least from what I have seen just looking at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted May 5, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2009 If this was the case then those R/Rs were bad...which I can see given the history of the bike...it wasn't designed for street riding, including the complex lighting and power systems that must be present. This may be where the updated (R1 R/R in your case) regulator shined through. Given the history of the RC45... it's R/R not only had to pass the rigors of local racing but also the Federal standards for street use... that's why the RC45 R/R carries it's own MW4 part number... if Honda wanted to just sell a race bike with a R/R off the shelf... they could have picked a VFR R/R... as they look about the same but RC45 is thicker and heavier and cost 1/3 more... The RC45 holds 3 World Endurance titles and Honda homologated a special R/R... wire harness and battery that works on the street as a number of the RC45 club members have learned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Today I spliced the stator wires directly to the R/R; no luck, as the wires still get hot when the engine is running--the higher the RPM, the greater the heating. I guess I could ride around like this for a while, but I wouldn't feel comfortable riding far from home. Too bad, I was hoping to ride this bike to the STN national meet in CO this June. Guess I'll take the other bike. Next step--switch batteries with my other VFR. Then I'll look into a new stator. What else is there to try? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Have you done any testing of the stator? My understanding is that when the windings go bad, they short out and there is a reduction in the resistance. It is a current-limited device, by way of that resistance, so when it goes down, more current flows. That additional current then heats up the wires and frys the R/R. That brings up a thought about installing other R/R's. Perhaps the two parts (stator & R/R) need to be matched. So, if you go putting in a "beefier" R/R, which would probably have larger rectifier diodes etc., and flow more current (i.e. less resistance), then that could "unload" the stock stator and damage it. Going the other way is easier to see. Imagine a high-power stator on the stock R/R, and how long that would last. Just thinking out loud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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