Connector Melt-down: Who Has Had One?

[Guest]

Thanks Tightwad and Capt. Bob. I bought a battery at lunch today and will install it and grease all my contacts. How hard is the VFRness to put in on the 99? That will be my next step.

[Tightwad]

Thanks Tightwad and Capt. Bob. I bought a battery at lunch today and will install it and grease all my contacts. How hard is the VFRness to put in on the 99? That will be my next step.

VFRness is very easy...disconnect battery, disconnect 4 pin R/R connection. Connect VFRness inline, connect battery positive and VFRness negative to R/R bolt for ground, route wires all pretty and go.

[Guest]

I finally got some time to work on this electrical problem again. I did splice the stator wires directly to the yellow wires leading to the R/R, but the heating problem persisted.

The stator had checked out OK according to the voltage & resistance specs, so I had assumed it was not the source of the problem. However, just to be sure, I removed the alternator cover to get a direct look at the stator. About half of it is the color of burnt toast. In fact, it is darker than the one in the photo that is included in the step-by-step stator replacement thread in the maintenance section on this website. The whole length of the wires coming out of the stator is discolored, I assume from too much heat.

I am now assuming that the stator is the source of the excess heat, and I am replacing it. I ordered one from tightwad on Friday, and I hope to have the bike back together before the end of the week.

It seems like the outcome of this might impact a few of you, so I will keep posting about it.

I am anxious to get this bike back on the road. Thankfully, I have another one that I have been able to ride during this down-time.

Jon

[JZH]

Eeewww, terminal blocks! :cool:

You can buy OEM Honda (Sumitomo) connectors from many sources, Eastern Beaver and The Electrical Connection spring to mind. CA Sport Touring as well. In the UK, there is Vehicle Wiring Products and Polevolt (I'm a regular "benefactor" of the former...) Good luck!

Ciao,

[Guest]

I installed the new stator today, and the original problem persists. The stator wires get very hot even at low RPM. It's not just the connector between the stator and the R/R, because the wires on the R/R side also get very hot.

I have thrown lots of $ at this problem, but worse, I have spent countless hours reading, cleaning, replacing, etc.

I give up; at least for now. When I save up enough $, I'll turn it over to a dealership. Or...I could turn this into an expensive parts bike. I just need to walk away from it for a few months.

Anybody want to buy a '98? very cheap!

Jon

[Tightwad]

Have you checked the mounting of the R/R to the frame? A good solid mount is needed for the heat to sink off of. Just how hot are the wires getting?

[Guest]

Have you checked the mounting of the R/R to the frame? A good solid mount is needed for the heat to sink off of. Just how hot are the wires getting?

If his is like mine pretty darn hot!!!! I have the VFrness, new battery, and the Ricks R/R....Everythng is runing fine, and have no charging (persay) issues....I have the stator wires hard wired scince my connector roasted itself.....Ive been riding like this for sometime now, probrably 1500 miles....but the heat is always in my mind and I reach up behind the fairing from time to time just to feel the wires ( like that helps me feel better).....I love this bike but if it gives me one more problem with this issue, it will be replaced...I have never seen a bike with such a bug that really cant be completley diagnosed.... :blink:

[Guest]

I've been out of town, so I haven't had a chance to work on this issue for a few months. I do have some time to devote to it now.

I took off all the body work. I've been methodically checking all wires, connectors, and relays for damage and poor connections, and have found none.

Since I know squat about electrical systems, I have just been disconnecting things, one-at-a-time, to see if I can isolate the cause of the over-heating of the stator wires.

A few things that I have discovered: 1. When I disconnect the R/R from the main wiring harness, the heating problem doesn't develop. 2. with the headlamps removed, the wires heat up much faster at any given engine RPM.

I have checked the starter relay--seems fine.

A few bits of information that I hadn't disclosed and hadn't thought about earlier: a week or two before the original connector melt-down, my car mechanic (an avid motorcyclist, and a good guy I have known for years) changed the hydraulic fluid in the brake lines and replaced the spark plugs for me. Not that I'm trying to blame the problem on him... I'm just wondering if he might have done something to impact this.

I will get this bike back on the road...eventually!

As before, I will appreciate any suggestions for solving this. Based on the ealier feedback, a few other members of the board would also benefit from further discussion.

Thanks,

Jon

[MuddDawg]

So has anyone on here tried a fan for your R/R? UFO on ST-N put one on his 5th Gen. I think he used a Computer fan. I don't know how waterproof a computer fan is though. Being in the Seattle area, I would prefer water proof because if you dont ride in the rain here you don't ride.

[wwwobble]

I finally got some time to work on this electrical problem again.

...

The stator had checked out OK according to the voltage & resistance specs, so I had assumed it was not the source of the problem. However, just to be sure, I removed the alternator cover to get a direct look at the stator. About half of it is the color of burnt toast. In fact, it is darker than the one in the photo that is included in the step-by-step stator replacement thread in the maintenance section on this website. The whole length of the wires coming out of the stator is discolored, I assume from too much heat.

...

Jon

I had a 91 VFR which began with the reg/rec going out at about 40,000 -- and then the replacement failed with evidence of overheated wires from the stator about 20k after that. Stator tested fine, however I replaced BOTH stator and reg/rec after looking at the stator. Brown and burned looking. After replacing both it was still running fine at 86,000 when I sold it.

Recently I picked up a 2000 VFR. [because I wanted to learn more about electrical problems??]. Anyway, at 46,000 miles the wiring connector from the stator to the reg/rec melted just like you guys are talking about. This time I didn't even bother to test the stator. It will test OK. I know there were no shorts, I did check continuity. Sure enough, half the stator was brown and burnt looking and the wires coming out of the stator looked cooked.

I don't know enough about electricity to explain any of this, but it seems to me that stators that are beginning to fail figure into the burnt connectors / failed reg/rec problems. Since then I've discussed this with a couple of friends who are bike mechanics, and I find they always recommend changing stator when replacing reg/rec because they want no chance of "come backs" after a month or so with another ruined reg/rec and a really upset customer.

Any of this make sense, or run with others experience???

WWWobble

[VFR Capt.Bob]

I finally got some time to work on this electrical problem again.

...

The stator had checked out OK according to the voltage & resistance specs, so I had assumed it was not the source of the problem. However, just to be sure, I removed the alternator cover to get a direct look at the stator. About half of it is the color of burnt toast. In fact, it is darker than the one in the photo that is included in the step-by-step stator replacement thread in the maintenance section on this website. The whole length of the wires coming out of the stator is discolored, I assume from too much heat.

...

Jon

I had a 91 VFR which began with the reg/rec going out at about 40,000 -- and then the replacement failed with evidence of overheated wires from the stator about 20k after that. Stator tested fine, however I replaced BOTH stator and reg/rec after looking at the stator. Brown and burned looking. After replacing both it was still running fine at 86,000 when I sold it.

Recently I picked up a 2000 VFR. [because I wanted to learn more about electrical problems??]. Anyway, at 46,000 miles the wiring connector from the stator to the reg/rec melted just like you guys are talking about. This time I didn't even bother to test the stator. It will test OK. I know there were no shorts, I did check continuity. Sure enough, half the stator was brown and burnt looking and the wires coming out of the stator looked cooked.

I don't know enough about electricity to explain any of this, but it seems to me that stators that are beginning to fail figure into the burnt connectors / failed reg/rec problems. Since then I've discussed this with a couple of friends who are bike mechanics, and I find they always recommend changing stator when replacing reg/rec because they want no chance of "come backs" after a month or so with another ruined reg/rec and a really upset customer.

Any of this make sense, or run with others experience???

WWWobble

It's just more work and money to replace something that may still be fine. R/R is two bolts and a plug to replace. Stator is a little more involved. Probably easier for them to just replace both on your dime than to trouble shoot and save you the cash. But if the price is right for you then at least you know you have a fresh start with the same inaddequate Honda charging system design.

[wwwobble]

It's just more work and money to replace something that may still be fine. R/R is two bolts and a plug to replace. Stator is a little more involved. Probably easier for them to just replace both on your dime than to trouble shoot and save you the cash. But if the price is right for you then at least you know you have a fresh start with the same inaddequate Honda charging system design.

Captain, all true, what you say.

Replacing the reg/rec is easy enough but the stator connector was melted and the wires leading back to the stator clearly looked burnt. That looked like "trouble" to me, so I pulled the stator. As I said, it looked burned and smelled burned so I suspect it would have failed soon. Since a stator isn't really a "roadside" repair, I figured the cost of a new one as "insurance" against a probable charging failure in the near term, and maybe expensive if it fails several days from home.

Well, actually, the FJR is usually what I ride for multi day rides and no bad history of stator issues with these so far. But, as an everyday, forgiving, pleasant bike, I do still like the VFR quite a bit. And it's teaching me about charging systems too!

WWWobble

[Guest]

Wow, this has been a long ordeal; it has taken me more than 5 months to get this problem resolved (I HOPE it is resolved; knock on wood). Both bikes seem to be fine. I brought one to a local dealership that specializes in vintage Hondas. After I explained the history of the problem to the service manager he stated that the source of the problem was probaby the after-market R/R and stator. I was skeptical, but after they replaced these with Honda parts (including the up-graded R/R) all seems to be OK. The charging voltages at the battery are fine. The wires on both sides of the stator-R/R connector get warm, but they do not get hot as before (they were getting too hot to touch). On the other bike I replaced the after-market R/R with the up-graded Honda part and I soldered in a new connector on the stator side.

In both bikes I added an additional ground to the frame. I also checked and cleaned every connector that was easy to access. In both bikes the VFRness remains in place.

This was a costly process in both time and $, and I almost got to the point of giving up on the bikes in favor of a BMW F800ST.

Jon

[backonabike]

This happened to me. I spliced in larger guege wires and soldered them in and the I cleanned all remaining connections and doubled the ground, and did my own version of the vfrness. No problems since....been over a year.

[Guest]

On my 04, which is still stock, the wires around the stator connector were getting hot enough to change color from yellow to brown. I believed that it was due to degradation of the connector, so I swapped it out for a better one, and all seems to be well now. It does appear to be normal for those wires to get warm, but they shouldn't be getting hot. Basically, if you can't hold them in between your fingers indefinitely, then something is wrong. In some cases, it's a problem with the components, but in mine, it appears to have just been the connector going bad.

[kebrider]

Hey BlackBuell, I assume you are the same one I answered over at STN. My 01 melted down on Labor Day and I had to perform roadside surgery to get it home. Once home I did a major rewiring of the stator and rectifier wiring that eliminated the two rectifier connectors completely. Now each connector is an individual male/female connector, each rated at 30 amps. I upgraded the wiring with the correct color coded heavier gauge wiring and added some length to allow for easier roadside repairs if it is ever necessary.

Here is what it looks like finished up (forgive the gawdy colored ty-wraps, they are the reusable kind and they were free from a neighbor). You will see in the pictures that I was liberal with the heatshrink protection. I doubled up heatshrink on everything:

IMG_0223.JPG

What you cant see inside the old connector boot is I have a piece of rubber (from a 3M high voltage splice kit) that is "woven" between each individual wire/connector to prevent any possible wire-2-wire short. Here is what they look like before the rubber is installed:

IMG_0227.JPG

Here is another shot:

IMG_0225.JPG

Here is one last shot:

IMG_0224.JPG

What I don't show too well is I spliced the monitor wire directly to the DC output + recifier lead because when I finished the rewiring the RR output was varying from 14.2V to 15.6V. I figure there is a high resistance point in the monitor wiring which causes the rectifier to modulate excessively. With the monitor wire effectively circumvented I have a consistent 14.6V all the time from 3K to redline. My lights do not dim at idle and the wiring stays barely warm to the touch, mostly picking up heat from the frame from what I can tell.

As I said in the STN forum I believe the Rick's Rectifier connector is a point of high resistance but I don't want to slam Rick's product unfairly. The monitor wire restiance issue may have been the real culprit as it was forcing the rectifier to output max voltage all of the time. My big concern with this rectifier is why is it designed to put out such a high voltage? Next step is to install a volt meter.

I performed the same surgery to my 96 VFR which has a Yamaha R1 rectifier and also has a voltage warning light which is always green now.

KEB

[Guest]

KEB,

Nice pics of very professional-looking work. I will attempt to make similar changes should I have another connector melt-down. In fact, I plan to take all necessary materials with me on my next X-country trip, just in case.

Thanks,

Jon

[Auspanglish]

I have had the same problem... and may still have the overheating stator wires issue, must take off fairing and check asap.

2003 VTEC. Spain.

I installed the VFRness maybe more than a year ago. My stator died early this year (I believe the insulation is substandard in these units 2002-2005). there was a recall letter sent out but only included certain chassis numbers and mine doesn't figure on the list (according to Honda Montesa (Spain), and I'm not sure whether they're passing the buck or, moreso, turning a blind eye).

I bought a stator from Josh, I assume it's a Rick's brand. I seem to recall that the wires on this unit are rather thin, but as opposed to CaptainBob (all due respects and praise to you for such excellent handiwork, my splicing job was rather more "homegrown"), I figure the fact the R/R wires the stator wires dump all those Volts into are thinner, shouldn't be a problem, IIRC, this would be a problem if it were the other way around, i.e. if the thinner wires are downstream, like blocking up a river, or forcing one through a thinner canal.

Anyway, I didn't replace the R/R as its output readings were fine, I figured the VFRness saved the R/R and other components from suffering when the stator melted down. I should point out I am at no point putting Josh's concept/work down, on the contrary.

All was well after this, until a few months later I was stopped at the lights and could smell burning plastic... i knew it was some component of the electrical system so stopped at a gas station 1 km away. Sure enough the stator to R/R connector had gone KFC (crispy chicken). I cursed the Gods and after cleaning up a bit, decided I'd just disconnect (isolating all wire terminals) and rode it home on pure battery (not far: 10 mintues).

I ended up cutting out the conector and soldering in some wire extensions (the thicker of the two gauges) and splicing the wires directly (plenty of heat-shrink isolation macarroni). I noticed the wires were getting very hot on trial running the new set-up, but readings at the battery were dead solid. I have checked the wires once when a time later the battery started to fail. Seemed to not have the juice to turn the bike over if it didn't fire up first pop. Once running all readings at the battery were fine. I figured the battery had seen enough and was possibly 3-6 years old so I have bought the YTZ14S for that little extra oomph at start-up (or at least that's what I've been told, please do correct me those in the know).

I had come to the conclusion that on having pulled open the Stator to R/R connector several times, the connectors had opened up a bit, creating a loose fit and thus what they call in Spain "arcking" (sparks that cross the gap... like a spark plug... like a welder... Hot Hot Hot).

I wonder if in the end the thinner stator wires have something to do with it. If the heat in these wires is causing problems, I also wonder if they are to blame for the battery finally wearing out. even though I get perfect readings at the battery terminals.

The connector may not be the complete problem because the wires still heat up. Over here, VFR buddies I take are in the know, have a different theory on the R/R to ground dumping solution you guys offer by suggesting the use of hi-beams or accesories to bleed off extra juice. They all say that doing this places more stress on the stator and R/R, by requiring more output from them, they mention the word "exciter", and that this gizmo makes the system work harder and thus overheat... I don't know what to believe as I'm no sparky.

I am installing the new battery tomorrow and will check the stator to R/R splicing and wires to see if it's still heating up overmuch. If it is I'm not sure what to do... I still have the auxiliary R/R I bought from you Josh, but now I have no connector, swapping the OEM one out is not just plug and play any more, in order to do a trial comparison...

Will report back...

(Many folk over here have also suggested using those screw type connector blocks for replacing burnt connectors. if i could get the connector to fit the auxiliary R/R I bought I might be tempted to try soldering it in in place of the splicing and trial teh other R/R...

By the way, Josh, I also bought the Powerlet plug for my steering head, but some a$$hat burnt a chinese lamp on top of my bike, right where the plug is, and the plastic flip-top lid is now ugly as... you wouldn't be able to organize a replacemente, maybe Powerlet would toss a freebie to ya!!

Rubber side down.

[Guest]

Auspanol,

Please keep us posted on the outcome of your changes. Based on what you are experiencing coupled with how things have turned out for me, shouldn't the stator be considered as a possible source of the problem?

Jon

[Guest]

Folks, high resistance = heat. If you have hot wires they have resistance.

Reasons can be poor soldering, poor crimping, old corroded connections, etc.

Replace the connectors completely including all the terminals in them.

If the wires have been burned you'll have to cut them back to fresh copper. Look at the wire strands, if they are dark, not bright copper, they need to be cut back.

The new Mosfet type R/R units like the R1 unit are great.

By the way, I sell all kind of these connectors, including the special connectors for the R1 types.

Unplugging a connector and looking at it does not mean they are good. Use an Ohm meter to check resistance. It should be close to zero ohms across each connection.

The best advice of all is to replace the R/R connector completely BEFORE you have a problem.

[Auspanglish]

Auspanol,

Please keep us posted on the outcome of your changes. Based on what you are experiencing coupled with how things have turned out for me, shouldn't the stator be considered as a possible source of the problem?

Jon

OK, well I pulled the RHS fairing this arvo after installing the new battery. Remember I spliced in cable extensions to recover what I lost from cutting out burnt looking sections of cable. I wasn't aware of the difference in the colour of the copper, basically had cut back to where you could see the isolation material had stopped going brown. The soldering I did on the stator end of these extensions must have been a solid job... but the other end (R/R end) perhaps didn't get the same quality job (I'm not the world's best solderer and had to do it in the street). From this series of wire to wire (no connector) soldered joints towards the R/R, the wires get real hot. I mean, I can't touch them for more than half a second... and I believe the isolation on these wires is slowly going brown and creeping up towards the R/R... as I recall three being a little bit of brown (needed the length), but not so much as there appears to be now...

It's definitely an issue, although readings at the battery terminals are a solid 14.4 from idle all the way up (smooth acceleration), and even blipping the throttle... it doesn't budge. Hi-beams make it drop 0.15 V. So it's not an issue affecting the bike at the moment... but I reckon it eventually will.

Time to get my act together and SANITIZE good and proper (¡¡Si hay que sanear, se sanea!!)

I would like to return to the plug-n-play-ability of having a connector in there for easier on the road R/R swap outs, or even stator swap outs... having to nip and tuck is more problematic on a long journey... even though in theory (and if you do the prac right), you get much better results from not having a connector in there...

More later... will try posting photos too...

[Auspanglish]

Folks, high resistance = heat. If you have hot wires they have resistance.

Reasons can be poor soldering, poor crimping, old corroded connections, etc.

Replace the connectors completely including all the terminals in them.

If the wires have been burned you'll have to cut them back to fresh copper. Look at the wire strands, if they are dark, not bright copper, they need to be cut back.

The new Mosfet type R/R units like the R1 unit are great.

By the way, I sell all kind of these connectors, including the special connectors for the R1 types.

Unplugging a connector and looking at it does not mean they are good. Use an Ohm meter to check resistance. It should be close to zero ohms across each connection.

The best advice of all is to replace the R/R connector completely BEFORE you have a problem.

Do i check the resistance with the connector connected and the bike running? Can you explain how to check the resistance at this connector?

[Guest]

Do i check the resistance with the connector connected and the bike running? Can you explain how to check the resistance at this connector?

They're not sealed, stick one probe of the VOM in each side and measure the Resistance one pin at a time.

Re: heat in the wires - replace the wires.

[Auspanglish]

Do i check the resistance with the connector connected and the bike running? Can you explain how to check the resistance at this connector?

They're not sealed, stick one probe of the VOM in each side and measure the Resistance one pin at a time.

Re: heat in the wires - replace the wires.

OK will do... was intending on replacing the wires and putting a connector in place...

[Tightwad]

Do i check the resistance with the connector connected and the bike running? Can you explain how to check the resistance at this connector?

They're not sealed, stick one probe of the VOM in each side and measure the Resistance one pin at a time.

Re: heat in the wires - replace the wires.

OK will do... was intending on replacing the wires and putting a connector in place...

Are all 3 wires getting hot, or is it more concentrated in one? You can only replace the wires so far, then you run into the R/R....but if they are burned like Jim points out, they should be replaced up to a non-burned spot.

Jim is a great source for the R1 connectors, and a nifty fuse panel as well!