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Give Your 5th-gen A Boost...


toro1
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Wow - I didn't think Toro's elevation was that low. That would make quite a difference compared to Calgary. I'm headed to California for a ride in May, so I should find out then how my bike reacts at lower altitudes. I'm thinking its gonna be fun!!

Yep, I'm very close to the Delaware river, so while it's very, very hilly in my area, I'm basically at sea level (the dyno I use is only @ 100ft).

Steve, for your trip, keep my original map (and your tuned map) loaded on the LCD unit -- that way once you come down from the mountains, you can richen up the mixture on the fly (the LCD unit will let you store and swap as many maps as you like). With the denser air, your uncorrected hp will go from your current 156.4hp (173.6hp/ 1.11 - SAE correction factor) to a true uncorrected 170+hp, and you'll need more fuel accordingly (just for reference, my bike pulled 167hp uncorrected).

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Wow - I didn't think Toro's elevation was that low. That would make quite a difference compared to Calgary. I'm headed to California for a ride in May, so I should find out then how my bike reacts at lower altitudes. I'm thinking its gonna be fun!!

First long-term road test of a Torocharger! :beatdeadhorse:

I'm interested in your fuel mileage figures while on tour.

Could you gather some data and report back?

I'm particularly wondering about sustained slab cruising at the speed limit.

Is your bike's final drive gearing stock?

Yes, my gearing is stock - 16/43 I believe. I will see what I can do on checking the mileage for you. I suspect it won't be too much different at legal speeds, since the engine will be making more power at lower throttle openings, but RPMs should stay the same.

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Wow - I didn't think Toro's elevation was that low. That would make quite a difference compared to Calgary. I'm headed to California for a ride in May, so I should find out then how my bike reacts at lower altitudes. I'm thinking its gonna be fun!!

Yep, I'm very close to the Delaware river, so while it's very, very hilly in my area, I'm basically at sea level (the dyno I use is only @ 100ft).

Steve, for your trip, keep my original map (and your tuned map) loaded on the LCD unit -- that way once you come down from the mountains, you can richen up the mixture on the fly (the LCD unit will let you store and swap as many maps as you like). With the denser air, your uncorrected hp will go from your current 156.4hp (173.6hp/ 1.11 - SAE correction factor) to a true uncorrected 170+hp, and you'll need more fuel accordingly (just for reference, my bike pulled 167hp uncorrected).

I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

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My "after" run with Dan's #1 map was 157.8 HP. My final run after fine tuning by Ben at Redline was....wait for it...173.60 HP !!!

Wow! That's really impressive! :unsure:

On the exact same dyno the new BMW S1000RR recently made 168.77 HP in full-on "slick" mode. Yup, my little Veefer has the new Uber-Beemer covered by 5 HP!! Sweet.

There's something wrong with that Beemer; "Bike" magazine dyno'd one on a well-calibrated dyno and got 183.7bhp. That was on a bike that wasn't even run in yet (400 miles on the clock).

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I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

The VFR MAP sensor is only active at small throttle openings, after that it's a predefined map based on calculated engine volumetric efficiency (for a specific altitude/air density).

A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

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A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

I'm working on that option as we speak as I'm installing a PCV with Autotune on my 98. The PCV will work back to the 00-01 model years as a plug and play. Since the 98-99 don't have O2 sensors, I'm having a bung welded onto my header to accept the Bosch unit. The PCV's wire harness plugs into 98-09 without issue.

I hope to have results witin a week or two.

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A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

I'm working on that option as we speak as I'm installing a PCV with Autotune on my 98. The PCV will work back to the 00-01 model years as a plug and play. Since the 98-99 don't have O2 sensors, I'm having a bung welded onto my header to accept the Bosch unit. The PCV's wire harness plugs into 98-09 without issue.

I hope to have results witin a week or two.

Awesome!! Looking forward to hearing how it works. I think that would be the best option by far.

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A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

I'm working on that option as we speak as I'm installing a PCV with Autotune on my 98. The PCV will work back to the 00-01 model years as a plug and play. Since the 98-99 don't have O2 sensors, I'm having a bung welded onto my header to accept the Bosch unit. The PCV's wire harness plugs into 98-09 without issue.

I hope to have results witin a week or two.

Oh so the injector/TPS connector harness is the same? That's good news!

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Hey Toro,

Would you please describe how the supercharged VFR feels compared to the non-supercharged motor? I know that asking you to describe a feeling can be very subjective, but as a 5th gen owner, I hope you'll be able to make the comparison. I'm wondering how the added HP and torque are felt by the rider. Does it feel comparable to the power delivery of a blackbird? Or is it only really noticeable at higher revs? Does the torque feel greater at the lower revs?

Thanks.

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I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

It will compensate for the small stuff, but not WOT (which is why the map I provided, though perfect for me at sea level, was ultra rich for you at 4000ft). We are adding so much air & fuel to the engine that the stock sensors can't keep up. Remember, we bypass the boost from the stock MAP sensor so it doesn't throw a code, but at the same time, it renders it useless once we're pushing boost.

Ultimately, the best way to handle tuning would be to base the fueling off of boost, but to do that, the cost really starts to go up (due to needing a 3-bar MAP sensor, the multi-function hub if using a PCIII, or an entirely different way of handling the tuning). With most riders, unless they are significantly changing elevation, the PCIII is by far the most cost-effective way to dial in the AFR.

In your case, since you already have the LCD unit, you can store as many maps as you like, but if you want even greater tuning capability, then we'd have to look at getting you the multi-function hub and an aftermarket MAP sensor, at which point it truly would not matter where in the world you rode since the fuel added would be proportional to boost.

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Hey Toro,

Would you please describe how the supercharged VFR feels compared to the non-supercharged motor? I know that asking you to describe a feeling can be very subjective, but as a 5th gen owner, I hope you'll be able to make the comparison. I'm wondering how the added HP and torque are felt by the rider. Does it feel comparable to the power delivery of a blackbird? Or is it only really noticeable at higher revs? Does the torque feel greater at the lower revs?

Thanks.

Hi Jamie,

In a nutshell, normal riding feels exactly the same as before. If anything, compared to stock, throttle response is crisper, starting out is easier, and the engine feels smoother, but it is still a VFR800. Now, there is no doubt that you have more power available to you at all points in the powerband, but in general, if you are at very low rpms (2500-3500), you will not feel much of a difference over stock as the Rotrex is only pushing ~1psi.

In most situations it has always felt to me like the bike is a gear (or two) lower than it would be stock. If you have a steeper gear ratio, the change will be even more noticeable. The power really starts to build around 5000rpm, with serious steam coming around 7-8000. From there on up, there is absolutely no resemblance to a stock VFR, as depending on the ride height and gearing, the front end becomes very light (with stock ride height and a -1/+2 gearing setup, I've had the bike wheelie in 5th-gear, but now with a lowered front end and stock gearing, it stays much more planted).

The bike will pull to redline with absolute authority, as the power never stops increasing -- if you hardly ever reached the redline before, you will once you add this kit. To give you an idea of the power, the bike will wheelie on command from any rpm in the first two gears with the stock gearing, and can easily power wheelie in 3rd & 4th. However, due to the nature of the supercharger, the power is still actually controllable, and you don't have to worry about a sudden boost spike coming out of a turn. 160whp is still 160whp, though, so you need to treat it with respect, and you can have some tense moments if you're not careful.

I have not ridden a Blackbird, but I can compare the powerband to a GSXR1000 & ZX10R. Basically, if it's low rpm torque you're looking for, this kit is not the answer. The bike is only 781ccs, and with low boost output at low rpms, this engine is not transformed into a 1200cc monster. Compared to the literbikes, around town I feel the VFR is actually a bit quicker due to the tranny gearing, but once you get in 3rd & 4th gear (and up), the greater torque of the 1000s (and their smooth firing 180° crank layout) provide a vibe-free, stronger pull from low rpms. If you really want to experience greater torque, changing the final gearing does wonders, but no matter what, 781ccs cannot compete with 1000-1300ccs in the torque department down low.

However, if you're used to the VFR powerband, and are looking for more power, this kit does give you more oomph at all rpms, with an insane amount coming from midrange on up. It makes a great bike even better, and really puts on smile on your face when you crank on the throttle.

Hope that helps.

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Hey Toro,

Would you please describe how the supercharged VFR feels compared to the non-supercharged motor? I know that asking you to describe a feeling can be very subjective, but as a 5th gen owner, I hope you'll be able to make the comparison. I'm wondering how the added HP and torque are felt by the rider. Does it feel comparable to the power delivery of a blackbird? Or is it only really noticeable at higher revs? Does the torque feel greater at the lower revs?

Thanks.

Hi Jamie,

In a nutshell, normal riding feels exactly the same as before. If anything, compared to stock, throttle response is crisper, starting out is easier, and the engine feels smoother, but it is still a VFR800. Now, there is no doubt that you have more power available to you at all points in the powerband, but in general, if you are at very low rpms (2500-3500), you will not feel much of a difference over stock as the Rotrex is only pushing ~1psi.

In most situations it has always felt to me like the bike is a gear (or two) lower than it would be stock. If you have a steeper gear ratio, the change will be even more noticeable. The power really starts to build around 5000rpm, with serious steam coming around 7-8000. From there on up, there is absolutely no resemblance to a stock VFR, as depending on the ride height and gearing, the front end becomes very light (with stock ride height and a -1/+2 gearing setup, I've had the bike wheelie in 5th-gear, but now with a lowered front end and stock gearing, it stays much more planted).

The bike will pull to redline with absolute authority, as the power never stops increasing -- if you hardly ever reached the redline before, you will once you add this kit. To give you an idea of the power, the bike will wheelie on command from any rpm in the first two gears with the stock gearing, and can easily power wheelie in 3rd & 4th. However, due to the nature of the supercharger, the power is still actually controllable, and you don't have to worry about a sudden boost spike coming out of a turn. 160whp is still 160whp, though, so you need to treat it with respect, and you can have some tense moments if you're not careful.

I have not ridden a Blackbird, but I can compare the powerband to a GSXR1000 & ZX10R. Basically, if it's low rpm torque you're looking for, this kit is not the answer. The bike is only 781ccs, and with low boost output at low rpms, this engine is not transformed into a 1200cc monster. Compared to the literbikes, around town I feel the VFR is actually a bit quicker due to the tranny gearing, but once you get in 3rd & 4th gear (and up), the greater torque of the 1000s (and their smooth firing 180° crank layout) provide a vibe-free, stronger pull from low rpms. If you really want to experience greater torque, changing the final gearing does wonders, but no matter what, 781ccs cannot compete with 1000-1300ccs in the torque department down low.

However, if you're used to the VFR powerband, and are looking for more power, this kit does give you more oomph at all rpms, with an insane amount coming from midrange on up. It makes a great bike even better, and really puts on smile on your face when you crank on the throttle.

Hope that helps.

Toro,

Thanks for the detailed response; you painted a good picture. Yes, it helps a lot.

Edited by jaimev34
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...

However, if you're used to the VFR powerband, and are looking for more power, this kit does give you more oomph at all rpms, with an insane amount coming from midrange on up. It makes a great bike even better, and really puts on smile on your face when you crank on the throttle.

Hope that helps.

Heck, I haven't even ridden a SC'ed VFR yet and it already puts a huge grin on my face. I can't even imagine what riding one would be like :cheerleader:

Edited by arrow
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...

However, if you're used to the VFR powerband, and are looking for more power, this kit does give you more oomph at all rpms, with an insane amount coming from midrange on up. It makes a great bike even better, and really puts on smile on your face when you crank on the throttle.

Hope that helps.

Heck, I haven't even ridden a SC'ed VFR yet and it already puts a huge grin on my face. I can't even imagine what riding one would be like :angry:

Its a blast. Toro's description of the riding experiece matches mine, although I haven't ridden my boosted bike all that much yet due to our crappy spring weather here in the Great White North. One thing I've really noticed is how fast the bike revs once you get into the higher RPM range. The first time I was able to really get on the throttle I was hitting the rev limiter in 3rd and 4th gear just because the bike was accelerating so fast I couldn't shift fast enough. Now that I'm used to it, its not a problem, but its quite a change from stock. Change is good!!

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I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

It will compensate for the small stuff, but not WOT (which is why the map I provided, though perfect for me at sea level, was ultra rich for you at 4000ft). We are adding so much air & fuel to the engine that the stock sensors can't keep up. Remember, we bypass the boost from the stock MAP sensor so it doesn't throw a code, but at the same time, it renders it useless once we're pushing boost.

Ultimately, the best way to handle tuning would be to base the fueling off of boost, but to do that, the cost really starts to go up (due to needing a 3-bar MAP sensor, the multi-function hub if using a PCIII, or an entirely different way of handling the tuning). With most riders, unless they are significantly changing elevation, the PCIII is by far the most cost-effective way to dial in the AFR.

In your case, since you already have the LCD unit, you can store as many maps as you like, but if you want even greater tuning capability, then we'd have to look at getting you the multi-function hub and an aftermarket MAP sensor, at which point it truly would not matter where in the world you rode since the fuel added would be proportional to boost.

That's something I'd like to explore Dan. I think having the fuel curve match the boost curve would be the way to go.

Is this pretty much what the PCV does, or would other changes such as those you've mentioned be needed as well?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Blitzenveefer

A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

I'm working on that option as we speak as I'm installing a PCV with Autotune on my 98. The PCV will work back to the 00-01 model years as a plug and play. Since the 98-99 don't have O2 sensors, I'm having a bung welded onto my header to accept the Bosch unit. The PCV's wire harness plugs into 98-09 without issue.

I hope to have results witin a week or two.

Do you have any updates on this installation? I'm quite interested in your results.

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Oh so the injector/TPS connector harness is the same? That's good news!

Yup I have my PCV plugged in on my 5th gen, but the autotune module is not here yet.

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Guest dynagrego

Oh so the injector/TPS connector harness is the same? That's good news!

Yup I have my PCV plugged in on my 5th gen, but the autotune module is not here yet.

Buy Wideband2 instead of Autotune.

It is the same device but you have the capability to connect a dynojet digital or analog AFR gauge.Don't forget to order with it a can port plug.

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Guest Blitzenveefer

Oh so the injector/TPS connector harness is the same? That's good news!

Yup I have my PCV plugged in on my 5th gen, but the autotune module is not here yet.

Buy Wideband2 instead of Autotune.

It is the same device but you have the capability to connect a dynojet digital or analog AFR gauge.Don't forget to order with it a can port plug.

I got the Wideband 2 from Toro as part of my kit, so I'm good to go on that. I just have to get it installed and then figure out how the heck it works. I've looked at the information and it seems pretty complicated, but hopefully I can figure it out. I have the LCD readout as well. Toro says I can store a bunch of different maps on there and switch between them, but I'll have to ask for his help on that part of it.

I don't the Wideband 2 gives you the same autotune capability as the PCV though. I believe the PCV is a closed loop system that adjusts the mixture based on the AFR in realtime - correct? The Wideband 2 measures the AFR and logs it, but doesn't adjust the fuel to optimize the AFR - at least that's how I understand it. Maybe someone out there has a better handle on this than I do. Toro??

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I don't the Wideband 2 gives you the same autotune capability as the PCV though. I believe the PCV is a closed loop system that adjusts the mixture based on the AFR in realtime - correct? The Wideband 2 measures the AFR and logs it, but doesn't adjust the fuel to optimize the AFR - at least that's how I understand it. Maybe someone out there has a better handle on this than I do.

Yes, the Autotune is basically a Wideband Commander 2 hooked into the PCV. The PCV is what performs the dynamic fuel adjustment based on the data from the Autotune signal.

This would be a good device to have on the Supercharged motor, with customised AFR entries set to nice and safe numbers when under boost. An advantage of this would be if your fuel was of poor quality for some reason and you suddenly started to run lean, the Autotune could fix it by sending more fuel before you damaged the motor. There is a flipside to this however, in that a failure of the Autotune could possibly result in a dynamic adjustment to LEAN mixture. The risks would really be about the same as driving a factory boosted engine though, so I consider it low risk.

Actually, you can reduce the risk even further by setting a maximim enleanment value in the Autotune to a very low number - maybe even zero. This would mean the Autotune is allowed to richen the mixture beyond what your custom map says, but is not allowed to lean it out.

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Guest Blitzenveefer

I don't the Wideband 2 gives you the same autotune capability as the PCV though. I believe the PCV is a closed loop system that adjusts the mixture based on the AFR in realtime - correct? The Wideband 2 measures the AFR and logs it, but doesn't adjust the fuel to optimize the AFR - at least that's how I understand it. Maybe someone out there has a better handle on this than I do.

Yes, the Autotune is basically a Wideband Commander 2 hooked into the PCV. The PCV is what performs the dynamic fuel adjustment based on the data from the Autotune signal.

This would be a good device to have on the Supercharged motor, with customised AFR entries set to nice and safe numbers when under boost. An advantage of this would be if your fuel was of poor quality for some reason and you suddenly started to run lean, the Autotune could fix it by sending more fuel before you damaged the motor. There is a flipside to this however, in that a failure of the Autotune could possibly result in a dynamic adjustment to LEAN mixture. The risks would really be about the same as driving a factory boosted engine though, so I consider it low risk.

Actually, you can reduce the risk even further by setting a maximim enleanment value in the Autotune to a very low number - maybe even zero. This would mean the Autotune is allowed to richen the mixture beyond what your custom map says, but is not allowed to lean it out.

That sounds good. Anyone have any idea if the auto tune module will work with the PC III and Wideband Comander ? That way I could use what I have and just add the Autotune module.

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That sounds good. Anyone have any idea if the auto tune module will work with the PC III and Wideband Comander ? That way I could use what I have and just add the Autotune module.

Sorry but, No, the autotune only works on the PC V. The PC V also adds features like Gear by Gear fuel mapping, and some other stuff.

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  • 3 weeks later...

After trying different maps, and having Dan custom make 2 maps via e-mail, i finally found the time to run a dyno for some realy spot on adjustments...

The numbers went from 156.6 -> 183.2... pretty ok one should say :)

I dont have to say that the gained ponies does kick...

Let the summer begin :)

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Now, here is the evidence...

Red line = pre charger install.

Green line = A&A Perf. european charger map.

Blue line = Custom map.

I had the dyno recorded, here are my compilation of the goodies

post-13175-127503089473_thumb.jpg

Edited by WackenSS
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