'98 R/r And Charging System

[Guest rider914]

This is my first post here on VFRD and I might've hoped for a more auspicious entrance.

Picked up '98 VFR800 about one week ago. I am 4th owner. PO had the bike for 6 months and only added 1k miles (~27k total) before deciding it was not the right bike for his commute. Has basically been parked the last few months. Spent the evenings after work cleaning, inspecting, and basically getting to know my new friend. Other than the two black widow spiders living under the fairing, I found nothing alarming. Started her up a couple times this week to check fluid levels, but didn't get out for a ride 'til last night. Now out in the dark, I notice that the dash lights dim considerably at idle, brighter up at speed. Headlight / running lights dim too. I ride around for about a half-hour thinking the battery might need some charging. Bike feels tight and sounds wonderful! Only downs are front D208 tire is toast and the brakes are a little 'bumpy' just before full stop. I'll get to those later.

Pull into the garage and shut down. Wait a few seconds and lets try a re-start. Key on, no fuel pump buzz. Uh-oh. Thumb the starter and all the lights go out. Double uh-oh. Break out the multimeter and pop the seat. Battery shows 11.3V w/ key off, slowly dropping w/ key (lights) on. I'd already heard about Honda R/R's and charging systems so pulled the rear cowl for more inspection. R/R looks good, warm like everything else, but not scorching hot. Connectors looks good too, nothing melted or discolored. Took some pics, educated myself a little on VFRD, then went to bed. Looks like i've got a project for the weekend.

R/R #SH579A-11

R/R Connections

R/R input connector clean, but dry. Need some dielectric grease.

Very slight discoloration on only one of the stator leads. Connectors look fine and shiny. Wires are all flexible, not brittle.

R/R output connection to bike. Also clean and dry.

I can charge the battery and i'm sure the bike will fire up. I'll have to do that to check idle and running volts, but I want to take some positive action before riding again (and possibly damaging something that might still be okay).

What is the next step? What else should I check while engine is running?

Saw reference to a charging system diagnostics checklist, but haven't found it yet. Linky?

Also reading the 'Tips and Tricks...' thread. Lotsa good stuff there. Already making my to-do list.

Can the experts point me towards other quality threads or tech articles on this topic?

-Matt

[chris2992]

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...hl=stator+tests

Fill out that chart in the first post. Post results here.

[Tightwad]

First think to do would be to check the stator output.

With stator(3 yellow wires) unplugged and bike running, check for AC voltage across 2 of the pins. Next check across a different 2, fianlly check across the last 2(call it 1-2, 1-3, 2-3). You should have about 50 Volts AC on each circuit. If you don't, chances are your stator is dead.

If/when the stator passes, check the R/R output:

With Stator reconnected, check the DC voltage on each of the red wires(probe backwards into the wire connector). You should have about 14.5 volts at 5K rpm. Less than 13.5 is failing, more than 15.3 is failing.

It could also be that your wires just don't have the Oomph they need, as documented in the "Beef up dem wires" thread that is pinned. You can check this by adding wires from positive to positive on the battery, and from Negative to ground.

My guess? Bad battery. My advice? Beef up the wires anyway.

[vfrcapn]

It could also be that your wires just don't have the Oomph they need, as documented in the "Beef up dem wires" thread that is pinned. You can check this by adding wires from positive to positive on the battery, and from Negative to ground.

My guess? Bad battery. My advice? Beef up the wires anyway.

Charge that battery up and see how it goes, the connectors look good. My '99 needed constant trickle charging until I did the wire addition between r/r positive and battery as documented in the thread mentioned above.

[Guest]

Thanks for the feedback all.

Got the voltage check list. I'll try to run thru that tonight.

Found the ElectroSport flowchart. Might go thru that too.

Manuals downloaded, wiring diagrams printed, 10ga and 12ga red and green wire in fist, pocket full of splice connectors, ring terminals, shrink tube, ...

Need to stop at the FLAPS for dielectric grease, thermal paste, and maybe an appropriate fuse holder.

-M

[Guest]

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...hl=stator+tests

Fill out that chart in the first post. Post results here.

Here are the results, in the order that I measured...

Static Battery Voltage = 11.3v before charging, 12.3v initial charging, 12.6v after 1.5hr charge, 12.4v charger removed

Resistance between battery ground and frame ground = <0.1 ohm

Resistance between all 3 legs of the stator = 0.3 ohm

Continuity between all 3 legs and ground = none / infinite resistance

Start engine...

Charging voltage at Idle = 12.4v-12.7v (~1k rpm)

Charging voltage at 5k rpm = 13.3v-13.6v

DC voltage at the battery side of the +/- rr Connector = Identical to battery voltage

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at idle = 10.6v

AC voltage from stator (with rr pluged in) at 5k rpm = 11.5v

Stop engine, unplug stator, start engine...

AC voltage from stator (with rr unpluged) at idle = ~16v

AC voltage from stator (with rr unpluged) at 5k rpm = >60v

Stop engine, plug in stator, unplug rr, start engine...

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at idle = 1.3v - 1.5v

DC voltage at the RR side of the +/- RR connector (connector unpluged, measured directly across the red and green wire) at 5k rpm = 0.3v - 0.5v

Stop engine...

Static Battery Voltage = 11.8v

Wires and connectors felt barely warmer than ambient.

RR was pretty darned hot. Could keep my hand on it for ~10sec before it realy starts to hurt.

AC volts changed with engine rpm as expected. Steady reading if I held rpm steady.

DC volts never steady, no matter how steady I held rpm, even at idle.

-M

[Guest]

Re checked everything this morning. Pretty much same as yesterday.

I notice a max charge voltage of 13.7v at ~2500rpm, dropping slightly as rpm goes up from there.

Also checked for a drop between the rr DC connector and the battery. I measured ~0.1v drop from the red wires to the positive post, ~0.05v from the green to the negative post.

While running, all of the stator and rr wires get warm. The three small yellow wires from the stator to AC connector get noticeably warmer than any others.

Stator ohms and volts are consistent before (cool) and after (hot) testing.

After testing, the rr is very hot.

Started going through the connectors... Pretty easy to remove the terminals from the plastic connector with a tiny screw driver. Everything looked good. Discoloration at the AC connector from the stator was just a moisture stain. The crimps and exposed wire ends are all still shiny. None of the wires felt brittle...

... until I got to the single red/wht wire running from the 30A fuse to the harness. That wire was stiff and lumpy compared to others. Thinks its been getting hot (too many amps). The connecting wire from battery to fuse and the wire into the harness both seemed fine (and slightly larger).

-M

[Tightwad]

I would replace the 30 amp fuse holder wires with 12 gauge wires(10 gauge if you can find them). Then recheck the 5K RPM number. If that doesn't fix it, try connecting a wire from the red on the R/R directly to the battery....you can do this as a temp check. With the R/R getting really I hot, I wonder if that is a symptom, or the actual problem. People have put computer fans on their R/R, and have installed heatsink compound on the portion that touches the frame.

I don't yet have a harness made for the older 4-wire setups, but I will next week I think.

[Guest]

So I cut off the rr DC connector and ran the leads directly to the battery.

The two red wires are tied together at one ring terminal at the battery positive (no splices between rr and battery).

The two grn wires are spliced to one 10ga extension to a ring terminal at battery negative.

The DC connector to the bike harness is left hanging.

The red and green wires from the rr appear to be 14ga.

Battery has been on a trickle charger all day and reads ~13v w/ key off.

Start the engine and I read 13.7v at idle. Thats higher than the 5k rpm volts that I started with :thumbsup:

I get max of 14.3v at 2500rpm, but then it begins to drop off to less than 13v at 5k rpm <_<

Looks like i'm both better and worse than where I started.

rr still gets very hot with very little run time.

-M

[chris2992]

You absolutely have a bad RR. See my R1 RR replacement thread. I picked mine up for $19 off ebay and haven't been happier.

[sa1713]

You absolutely have a bad RR. See my R1 RR replacement thread. I picked mine up for $19 off ebay and haven't been happier.

Me too! :thumbsup:

[Guest]

Just for peace of mind, I took the battery to a bike shop for a load test. They gave it a :thumbsup:

Came home and wired up a muffin fan to the rr. While checking the fan and rr temperature, I noticed something strange (but good). Still getting ~13.6v at idle. As I roll on the throttle, I get ~14.3v peak at 2500rpm, then it gradually drops to ~13v at 5k rpm... but after about 5-10 seconds the volts jump up to 14.1v and hold steady. I can then roll the throttle up and down between 2k and 5k rpm and it pretty much stays at 14.1v If I drop back to idle and leave it there for a bit, the above behavior will repeat. 13.6v at idle, peak at 14.3v, drop, then steady at 14.1v <_< ????

Maybe its good for awhile, but hunt for R1 rr has already begun.

Thats enough messin' with the VFR for today. Time to get the 950 ready for a night off-road ride :goofy:

-M

[Guest]

Update...

I've had a chance to go on a few short after-work rides and the battery seems to be getting and holding a charge. Haven't installed an on-board volt meter yet, but dash lights seem more steady so I guess overall battery volts are more stable too. Still planning on an R1 RR conversion, but at least now I can put some miles on the new toy.

-M

[Guest]

'nuther update...

Appears that the fix was only partial / temporary. Everything checks out fine when the bike is cold, but if I ride long enough and something somewhere gets hot enough, the charging system quits and the battery gets drained. The bike continues to run perfectly fine, but when I get to where i'm going I cannot restart without a jump. Actually, the battery has restored itself a couple times so that after sitting for awhile it was just barely able to start the bike. A ~10mile ride brings the battery back to full charge, somewhere over ~30miles sustained then drains it. Recent heat wave is probly not helping. Today I saw 233F engine temp at 107F ambient on the fwy.

Still don't have a voltage monitor, but here's a couple things I've noticed when I think the battery is being drained...

Clock resets at low battery startup.

Odometer and tripmeter both stop counting.

Tripmeter randomly resets.

Fuel and temperature guages seem to work normally.

Keeping an eye open for an R1 r/r, but I'll try anything else that is compatible.

-M

[Tightwad]

Any VFR RR will work, you could use one from a 2000+ that has the sensor wire(you would need to add it, no big deal tho).

[fuldogg]

I too have a '98 VFR 800 with the exact same symptoms you describe. Over the past 3 yrs. I've replaced the battery (high quality agm type) and the rr (new "improved" model with bigger fins and heat sink). I tried temporarily adding heavier wiring between the various connections involving the rr, battery, and fuse block, but voltmeter showed no difference.

I have a voltmeter permanently mounted (something the factory should have done) and can monitor voltage ( it drops on a long ride with attendant clock and tripmeter resettings just as you describe). On the last long ride (200 miles) I needed to bump start the bike, and to get home I removed the headlight fuse. The bike showed about a 1 v. increase on my voltmeter while running w/o headlight. I've since wired in a switch for the headlights and now run with them off during day time. I've gone on two long rides (200 - 400 m.) since installing the switch and have had no problems.

[Guest]

Sounds like a classic '98 R/R problem. I had weird voltage readings, sometimes the battery was good,sometimes not, etc. Change your R/R (I got an OEM from ronayers.com). I changed my battery, just because I didn't know how long it had been having problems (previous owner said it was new, but it didn't hold a consistent charge). CHeck your wiring if you ride in an area that is prone to corrosion. My bike has been fine for the last 12K miles or so since I replaced the R/R and battery.

[Guest]

Possible significant discovery?

While studying the wiring harness and checking various connectors, I noticed a consistent voltage drop every time the key is turned on and I do not promptly try to start the bike. Basically, I turn the key on and the battery voltage ramps down about 2.5v from where it started (say from 12.5v to 10.0v). Turn the key off and the voltage ramps back up to near the starting volts (~12.4v) depending on how long I had the key on.

That drop seemed excessive, so I set about trying to determine which load was using all the juice. Basically, I removed all of the fuses (A - G) and then replaced them one at a time, checking the voltage drop (load) associated with each fuse. Skipping the details, I found a ~2v drop when fuse G was in place. All of the other fuses combined (including headlights, PGM-FI, clock, ...) caused only a 0.4v drop.

A couple more measurements showed a 2ohm resistance on the downstream side of fuse G (to frame ground) with the key on. At 12v that would be a 6A load.

Next I burned out my eyeballs squinting at the wiring diagram, trying to determine exactly what runs off of fuse G.

Here is what I found:

1. Front running lights (only when turn signals are off).

2. Rear tail and license plate lights.

3. Head light relays (but not the actual headlights).

4. Speed sensor.

5. Dash board back lights.

6. Dash board guages and indicator lamps.

Again used a process of elimination to narrow the search. The running lights, tail lights, plate light, and speed sensor were all easily disconnected (one at a time) and had no effect. Still a 2v drop with the key on. Flipping the high/low beam switch (to energize either relay) also had no effect.

So that leaves something in the dashboard consuming 2v of power. Can anyone point me towards the next step? Is there an easy way to get at the wiring / connectors behind the dash, or do I have to pull the fairing? I would bet that all of the dash items come back to a common ground path / wire. Is that checkable, or is it buried inside the harness?

Any suggestions much appreciated.

-M

[Tightwad]

Try disconnecting the headlight relay, not the headlight itself. Maybe one of them is shorted to ground inside.

[Guest]

Try disconnecting the headlight relay, not the headlight itself. Maybe one of them is shorted to ground inside.

I'll try that when I have the fairing off, but realy don't think it will make a diff.

Already sorta checked the relays by pulling fuse F (20A, provides power to the actual headlights), leaving fuse G (10A, provides power to the headlight relays) in place, and flipping the hi/lo switch. I can hear the relays 'click', but there is no change in the 2v drop. I would think it unlikely for both relays to fail in the exact same fashion.

BTW, with fuse F installed, the headlights (hi or lo) contribute less than 1/4v drop.

From reading the service manual, looks like I have to pull both side fairings, mirrors, windscreen, and nose fairing to get at the back of the dash. :goofy:

-M

[Guest]

Didn't find anything especially noteworthy behind the dash. Connectors and everything look very clean. Largest voltage drop comes from grey connector (~1v), then blue connector (~1/2v), then headlight relay (~1/4v). Readings were not repeatable, but the battery was getting weak (only recovering to ~11.5v). Applied dielectric grease to all of the connectors, polished the lamp contact traces on the flexi circuit with a pencil eraser, and put everything back together.

Replacement RR arrived ('04 GSXR750) so I did some wire splicing and hooked it up. Also installed a new battery since the old one needed to sit on the trickle charger after all the testing. Fired up and I get 14.2-14.7v at idle, 15.2v max around 2k rpm <_<

Is that now too much? Should I worry about overcharging?

-M

[Tightwad]

15.2 volts shouldn't be too much, but I would be happier with 14.5-14.7 as a max. I assume the GSXR R/R doesn't have a monitor circuit, and thus it is full bore all the time?

[Mac Morgan]

I've had a 98 VFR800 since new. I've got close to 19000 miles on it now and am on my 3rd battery and 2nd RR. I am not really sure where all the problems stem from as I've read alot of the threads on the charging system problems.

I do know that I have used the handlebar toggle on/off switch and forgot to turn the key off, thus killing the battery (at least 2-3 times) necessatating a push start. After push starting it, all the parameters had to be re-learned - but, seeing that the btry. was close to dead, did it overload the RR?

I just replaced the original RR and found the 3 yellow stator wires and plug were pretty well heated up and the connector almost welded together. I replaced the 3 connectors from the stator and plugged them into the new RR plug. After a 1500mi/4 day ride, all looked well.

So, does a dead/weak btry. cause the RR to overcharge resulting in burnt connectors and wires?

Any thoughts from the other owners out there?

Mac Morgan

Hockessin, DE

[Guest voros]

I guess the newer 2001-2002 VFR's have an extra wire to check the voltage. For the fifth gen. 98-99 I do not think a dead/weak battery can cause the R/R to overcharge.

The R/R should not overcharge (15V) in any case. It was a defective R/R, I think. Overcharging is as bad as undercharging even worst. Can cook your battery, burn your bulbs, even damage the ECM.

[Mac Morgan]

I guess the newer 2001-2002 VFR's have an extra wire to check the voltage. For the fifth gen. 98-99 I do not think a dead/weak battery can cause the R/R to overcharge.

The R/R should not overcharge (15V) in any case. It was a defective R/R, I think. Overcharging is as bad as undercharging even worst. Can cook your battery, burn your bulbs, even damage the ECM.