Wheel bearing, done after a few thousand miles

[Bren]

Hi All, looking for the collective wisdom on this.

 

I have the SP1 front end on my bike with an SP1 wheel, when I got the wheel powder coated a few years ago I put new bearings in. I felt something was off a few weeks ago and checked the bearings and sure enough one was noisy and rough. Interestingly there were drops of water under the dust seals and the bearings on both sides when I took them out. I don´t generally go out in rain anymore and I haven´t washed it in a while. On this wheel the right hand side bearing sits deeper into the rim than the left, right wheel spacer on that side is also longer. When driving the right side (deeper) bearing out it seemed to fall/plop towards the outside edge a bit before having then a significant interference fit and I had to tap it out all around the edge as expected. When fitting the new bearing there was an interference fit at the beginning but then once just below the edge of the wheel it seemed to almost fall down to the bottom of the pocket, left one had to be driven all the way down to seat properly.

 

I´m wondering, and worried!, now if my wheel is screwed or does this sound normal?

[Thumbs]

Loctite bearing fit will take up the slack 

 

Are using double lip sealed bearings?

[Bren]

never heard of that loctite stuff before, I´ll see if I can get some. Thanks for that.

 

Still makes me wonder as I´ve had this wheel on for some...10 years maybe more.

 

Yes sealed bearings directly from Honda dealer.

[Bren]

looking at it, which one would suit best? 

 

641 or 609? Any experience with applying it?

[Bren]

both of the above are difficult to get, I´m concerned to use the 648 as it´s green which is a permanent adhesion similar to red loctite, extreme heat to get it out.

 

I´m wondering if the common, blue, thread lock would work...

[Thumbs]

Now I’m going to have to go find it, this could take some time 

 

 

641

[Bren]

Thanks for that.

 

Did some more googling and decided on the 641 also and managed to find it online. Hope it works!

[Bronco]

Enlighten me; I'm curious...

 

What location, exactly, is it being suggested that this Loctite be applied to? Between the outer race of the wheel bearing and the wheel casting?

[Bren]

Yes, it will have to be applied to the outer race (circumference) and the wheel casting otherwise it would glue the inner turning bearing part also.

I'm reading up how to do this still as if I apply it to the bearing and then drive it in, it will be wiped off by the tight area. Need more research but any help or advice would be appreciated. 

[interceptor69]

I replaced the front wheel bearings after having my wheels powder coated-they unfortunately powder coated the entire wheel, including where the wheel bearing sits so had to dremel that out which was tedious as hell.  I had the opposite problem-one of the bearings went in normally but the other one had to be pounded in and I was worried there was still residual power coating inside but once mounted they work fine.  I wonder-would it matter if the wheel bearing wasn't snug inside the rim?  The spacers will hold everything in place, right? 

[Bronco]

Hmm, never would have even thought of that as a fix.

 

If you had the wheel raised off the ground, even go ahead and remove the calipers, tightened up the axle before the material set, and use something like the stuff that the Honda factory puts on cam gear fasteners that turns to rock, then ya it would center and hold the wheel. 

 

Then again if it doesn't work then you don't have to worry about it because it will be new wheel shopping time.

 

Ducky job though. Hope it works out for ya Bren.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bren]

8 hours ago, interceptor69 said:

 I wonder-would it matter if the wheel bearing wasn't snug inside the rim?  The spacers will hold everything in place, right? 

I made sure the bearing seats were clean before fitting, I had also taped off the wheel myself before powder.

 

I think it would matter if it has any play because even though the spacers hold it in place laterally the bearing can still move up, down, sideways and with the forces of suspension etc it would rattle it around eventually shaking the bearing to bits. This is my understanding and suspicion anyway of what happened to the old bearing.

 

1 hour ago, Bronco said:

If you had the wheel raised off the ground, even go ahead and remove the calipers, tightened up the axle before the material set, and use something like the stuff that the Honda factory puts on cam gear fasteners that turns to rock, then ya it would center and hold the wheel. 

 

That would be the 648 which is a permanent adhesion type of compound, I don´t want to use this as it would be a nightmare to remove the bearing again in the future.

 

I´m still researching how I´ll do it but the first idea is not to drive the bearing out again but leave it in and apply the loctite 641 around the circumference of the bearing outer race. This 641 is supposed to have a low viscosity so I´m hoping it drains down where there are any gaps. It sets in 10 minutes, fully cured in 24 hours, so I would have enough time to then quickly reinstall the wheel so it sets in the correct position.

 

1 hour ago, Bronco said:

Ducky job though. Hope it works out for ya Bren.

 Very much my feeling too. Thanks. I´ll update my success or failure!

[Thumbs]

This is a result of the traditional way of removing the bearing, knock it out and inevitably damage the seat

 

More effect is using a Rawlbolt on the inner race and pull it out, also the cheap way of getting blind bearings out 

[Mohawk]

From what you have said if I read it correctly one bearing fits as you might expect but the other is a tight fit as you start it, then goes loose once far enough in to seat against the inner bearing spacer. If that is correct it sounds like the spacer is too short. One of the Kawasakis I used to have had that setup. The bearing on one side was a traditional fit to a shoulder in the wheel, the others depth was controlled by the spacer. After powder coat & a couple of months between removal & refitting I used the wrong spacer & the bearing floated inside the wheel. Once I realised my mistake & got it out I was able to put it in correctly. 
 

Bearing goo will not work unless you have a means to centralise the shaft to the wheel exactly. Check you parts are all correct ! Wouldn't be the first secondhand parts that came with wrong bits installed ! 

[Dangeruss]

Keep in mind that the bearings are designed so that the spacers locate everything in the correct place when you tighten the axle down. That's why you tighten the bolt on the right end of the axle first and then the clamps on the bottom of the forks. The wheel is located to the right side bearing that seats the outer race against the shoulder, and the other outer race has a more relaxed fit to allow it to locate relative to the inner race. This helps prevent it from being side loaded due to install error, and also due to thermal expansion. The manual tells you to install the right side bearing first for a good reason. Since it is your right side that is loose (assuming you haven't installed the wheel backwards...) I think you are fine using bearing retainer on that bearing as it goes in first and seats on the shoulder. I've used 609 numerous times on industrial and automotive repairs and it works great. If the bearing is flopping around loose and the wheel is wallowed out it won't fix that, but the difference between having to tap it lightly and falling on it's own is very small and not going to affect the wheel running on centre. This is what it is intended for. You don't need much, you don't want it squeezing up the back shoulder and into the bearing. I would clean everything well to be free of oil and wipe a thin film in the bottom of the bearing bore, only where the bearing seats, or you'll just push it all to the bottom anyway and have too much. Leave it to set up, unless you use Loctite primer, before installing the spacer and other bearing. Don't keep driving the other bearing in once it contacts the spacer or you'll undo what you are trying to fix.

[Bren]

9 hours ago, Thumbs said:

This is a result of the traditional way of removing the bearing, knock it out and inevitably damage the seat

 

More effect is using a Rawlbolt on the inner race and pull it out, also the cheap way of getting blind bearings out 

Again, appreciate the advice @Thumbs.

I think you're right on the drift method to remove the bearing previously not being as exact as I thought I was doing it ie. slowly around the edges.

 

641 ordered and on the way!

[Bren]

3 hours ago, Mohawk said:

From what you have said if I read it correctly one bearing fits as you might expect but the other is a tight fit as you start it, then goes loose once far enough in to seat against the inner bearing spacer. If that is correct it sounds like the spacer is too short. One of the Kawasakis I used to have had that setup. The bearing on one side was a traditional fit to a shoulder in the wheel, the others depth was controlled by the spacer. After powder coat & a couple of months between removal & refitting I used the wrong spacer & the bearing floated inside the wheel. Once I realised my mistake & got it out I was able to put it in correctly. 
 

Bearing goo will not work unless you have a means to centralise the shaft to the wheel exactly. Check you parts are all correct ! Wouldn't be the first secondhand parts that came with wrong bits installed ! 

Thanks @Mohawk for your input.

The parts are correct, been in use some 15+ years now and only now a problem. 

[Bren]

43 minutes ago, Dangeruss said:

Keep in mind that the bearings are designed so that the spacers locate everything in the correct place when you tighten the axle down. That's why you tighten the bolt on the right end of the axle first and then the clamps on the bottom of the forks. The wheel is located to the right side bearing that seats the outer race against the shoulder, and the other outer race has a more relaxed fit to allow it to locate relative to the inner race. This helps prevent it from being side loaded due to install error, and also due to thermal expansion. The manual tells you to install the right side bearing first for a good reason. Since it is your right side that is loose (assuming you haven't installed the wheel backwards...) I think you are fine using bearing retainer on that bearing as it goes in first and seats on the shoulder. I've used 609 numerous times on industrial and automotive repairs and it works great. If the bearing is flopping around loose and the wheel is wallowed out it won't fix that, but the difference between having to tap it lightly and falling on it's own is very small and not going to affect the wheel running on centre. This is what it is intended for. You don't need much, you don't want it squeezing up the back shoulder and into the bearing. I would clean everything well to be free of oil and wipe a thin film in the bottom of the bearing bore, only where the bearing seats, or you'll just push it all to the bottom anyway and have too much. Leave it to set up, unless you use Loctite primer, before installing the spacer and other bearing. Don't keep driving the other bearing in once it contacts the spacer or you'll undo what you are trying to fix.

Thanks @Dangeruss

for the tips and advice.

I decided on the 641 as its suitable for disassembly which some of the others aren't without a great deal of heat which I don't want to inflict on my wheel.

 

After more research , I will be removing the bearing and doing similar to what you suggested in contrast to my previous process above.

 

I took the wheel off again today in preparation. I used a drift from the other side to gently push it out until I felt resistance, then I turned it over and I was able to, forcibly, push the bearing back into its seat with my thumbs. It's not flopping about and needs a good push to force it back down but that's not right, it should be tight in the pocket or the whole oscillating forces will probably make the pocket even wider/more oval.

I'm pretty sure now that the pocket for the bearing has been expanded by a clumsy, cock-handed attempt at removal or fitting by yours truly. Even though I've done this many times this is proof that anyone can cock up anything.

 

I'll report back on my wheel escapades!