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Unhappy 1st time VFR Owner - No power to fuel pump


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1 hour ago, AndyE said:

 

 

Is this heading towards Ducnuts theory?

 

 

 

What I know of some early 2000’s Hondas is if the ECM doesn’t see a minimal voltage (can’t remember the number, these days), it won’t trigger anything. For the shop I worked in, no-start bikes got put on a charger, as soon as they hit the table or a fresh battery went in, to shorten table time, for just this reason. I can’t say for certain if the same applies to 5th Gen VFR’s, though. I just know working with a fully charged battery eliminates a variable(s). It’s been many years, since I worked in a shop. 
 

I applaud Grum’s knowledge, here. 

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Dropped off to the workshop with no issues.  Couldn't get the wire I intended to use to fit in the connector so ended up using a bit of garden wire....not ideal but it got me there😱✌   I act

And she lives!   After cleaning the contacts it was still the same, but when probing the red and white wore to check voltage, I suddenly hear the pump fire up!  She started after half a doze

Thanks Grum, The plan is to enjoy the ride outs with a mate I can trust 'not to go all Rossi on me' over the summer, and then use the winter months to tinker and make good.   I'll be looking

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Thanks Grum, appreciate the help.  I'll trace those wires to the blue connector and follow it through as best I can.  Sincere thanks for all the input and advice.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

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5 minutes ago, ducnut said:

I applaud Grum’s knowledge, here. 

Here here

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On 20 July 2020 at 12:27 AM, ducnut said:

What I know of some early 2000’s Hondas is if the ECM doesn’t see a minimal voltage (can’t remember the number, these days), it won’t trigger anything. For the shop I worked in, no-start bikes got put on a charger, as soon as they hit the table or a fresh battery went in, to shorten table time, for just this reason. I can’t say for certain if the same applies to 5th Gen VFR’s, though. I just know working with a fully charged battery eliminates a variable(s). It’s been many years, since I worked in a shop. 
 

I applaud Grum’s knowledge, here. 

Thanks mate. But he's loosing volts at the ESR and if the battery is at least able to drive his headlights he either has bad connections back from the ESR. Sorry it's a bit of a saga but need to get solid 12v at the Blk/Pink wire of the ESR.

Cheers. Bedtime for me!

 

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Congratulations on choosing a nice all around riding machine.   It’s a used 16 year old used bike so there will be something that needs attention.     Definitely check stator and regulator but ground issues and a burned looking wiring around the battery can definitely cause problems like you have described.    Get her running and enjoy.
 

 

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I'll certainly try Legend!  Unfortunately, Mrs E wanted new carpet so had to put the multimeter down and pick up the stanley knife instead this afternoon so no further forward yet.  

 

Hopefully I can get it running soon, otherwise it'll be going back to Devon in a van!

 

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Have you checked the blue connector to the front harness?

I'll ask again, has the front harness Recall work been done? The dealer punches a dot on either the top left or top right corner of the Vin ID sticker on the frame rail.( I don't remember what the other punch mark is for)

 

Just for shit's and giggles run a jumper ground from the front half of the ground wire in the blue connector to the frame, turn key on and see if pump energizes! Won't tale 15 minutes if your already digging thru everything.

 

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Hi Baileyrock,

Thanks for chipping in on this, apologies for not responding directly before.

I think the work has been done judging by the additional earth wire.  Pic of the plate attached, I think thats a punch mark on the top right?

 

20200719_212742.jpg

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1 hour ago, AndyE said:

I'll certainly try Legend!  Unfortunately, Mrs E wanted new carpet so had to put the multimeter down and pick up the stanley knife instead this afternoon so no further forward yet.  

 

Hopefully I can get it running soon, otherwise it'll be going back to Devon in a van!

 


 

 

I understand that!!    My ‘07 quit on me on the freeway a little while back.   The wiring around the battery was looking burned and frazzled but I kept putting off replacing it and eventually paid the price.    In my case I decided to have it picked up and dropped it off at a Honda Powersports dealer for repair.   Thank goodness for breakdown cover.   
 

The dealer made a great repair, no further issues.   As much as I hate dealers repair rates it wasn’t to bad a deal when I asked them to replace brake and radiator fluids,  I even got to take a long test ride on a new wing!

 

They are nice machines that even after 11 years I’m still satisfied with.   

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Hi Andy.

Just to be sure, I think before going any further it's time we verified your battery is OR isn't OK. Battery voltage may not be an indication of its capacity, it's ability to provide current, and in fact most of the voltages you've mentioned have been low anyway!

 

So, attempt to start your bike. Does the Starter crank your engine over at a good rate? If YES we can assume there is enough capacity in the battery to be able to drive your EFI stuff at least to the point of just priming the Fuel Pump.

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5 hours ago, AndyE said:

Hi Baileyrock,

Thanks for chipping in on this, apologies for not responding directly before.

I think the work has been done judging by the additional earth wire.  Pic of the plate attached, I think thats a punch mark on the top right?

 

20200719_212742.jpg

Sorry, I just now realized that you are in the UK and I'm not even sure if Honda even performed a Recall there!

 

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Morning gents,

I belive the recall was done over here, and assume was completed on this bike given the extra ground on the blue connector that I've read about in other posts. 

 

The motor turns over just fine, plenty of cranking power and all other electrical components work fine when connected such as lights etc.

 

I will however chuck the battery on a full charge, just to rule it out, and as ducnut said, at least its then a known qty.

 

Working from home today so might get chance to do a couple more tests over lunch.

 

Cheers

Andy

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Ok, I think, thanks to all of your help we have found where the problem is.

 

Battery is fully charged and with the ignition on, I only get 1v on the pink and black wire at the esr.  Tracing back to the blue connector I see continuity.

 

If I then test the red and white wire going into the blue connector (the wire that goes to the left fuse box) I get 11.7v.  To me, this says the blue connector has a bad connection or short....right

Question, can I use a jump wire on the outside of the blue connector to test the theory without risking any damage.  I.e. r/w to bl/p.  I'm assuming I can as that's all the blue connector is doing anyway right?

 

So, how to fix it?!  Clean? Replace?

Its the top left pin in the pic and looks brown and nasty.

 

Thanks all, feels like I'm almost there unless someone tells me its not that simple and what I'm seeing is a result of a faulty reg/rec?

 

Andy

20200720_173422.jpg

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I’ve got a similar problem and bought this to get the contacts clean of oxide/rust ..... I’ll let you know how I get on

 

BTW regular “contact cleaner” is isopropyl alcohol so all it does is wash mud off 

 

 

 

 

 

38986399-E1C6-4485-B36F-1EF875FF3383.jpeg

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cheers Thumbs, I happen to have a can of iso from my days of cleaning thermal paste off CPU's.  Why that never entered my mind I dont know!

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And she lives!

 

After cleaning the contacts it was still the same, but when probing the red and white wore to check voltage, I suddenly hear the pump fire up!  She started after half a dozen cranks or so, and boom, running again!

 

So, question now is, dirty/loose contacts, or an underlying issue that caused it to brown up in the first place.  Bearing in mind this bike is 16 yes old and has 46k miles on the clock.

 

You guys rock, thanks to everyone who contributed, grum especially, he put a lot of time into helping me out, for which I am very grateful. 

 

Now its running, its going for a check over tomorrow evening with a proper mechanic and tech so they can sort that connector properly and give it the once over.  

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That connector is the 6th Gen’s Achilles heel. 
 

They make a sanding tool (hobby shops have them) that allows one to run it in/out and sand the contact surface. Also, one could use an unpin tool to remove each pin/contact, service it, and reinsert it back into the connector. There are electrical-specific contact greases (Ox-Gard is one) I’d definitely smear into each pin. Lastly, I’d definitely add a frame ground forward of that connector. 

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10 minutes ago, ducnut said:

That connector is the 6th Gen’s Achilles heel. 
 

They make a sanding tool (hobby shops have them) that allows one to run it in/out and sand the contact surface. Also, one could use an unpin tool to remove each pin/contact, service it, and reinsert it back into the connector. There are electrical-specific contact greases (Ox-Gard is one) I’d definitely smear into each pin. Lastly, I’d definitely add a frame ground forward of that connector. 

This is what comes next.  I won't feel confident until I'm sure that entire block is sound.

Thanks again.

Andy

 

 

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Hi Andy.

Glad you found the voltage drop we were chasing and you have your bike running. I'm sure it's been a satisfying learning experience for you.

 

Now a permanent fix. That connector looks bad.

 

Here's what I would do. (The choice is yours)

In the life of my 4 bikes I've never needed to disconnect that connector.... ever. 

So if it was my bike, I would completely eliminate the Blue connector by joining and sleeving each wire pair one by one. Either crimp with inline joiners or solder and sleeve.

 

You'll never have an issue with that plug again. There is a high current demand on that Blue connector with some of the wires, and has caused so many issues in the past. In my opinion, best to completly eliminate it.

 

Now, with your engine running you can measure your charging voltage at the battery to ensure stator and R/R are working properly. 

 

Cheers and good luck with the bike.

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Hi Grum,

It was very satisfying indeed to hear that pump spring into life.

I went back a bit later and it wouldn't start again.  Pushed the red and white wire into the connector and away it went.   I just need to be able to ride the bike about 7 miles to a friend who manages a workshop.  I was thinking I can jump the 2 pins just to get me there.  No issue with doing that I assume?

 

Good shout on eliminating the connector, I may well do that, looks to be a sensible move considering how often it seems to crop up in threads.

 

Will check the battery charge tomorrow, fairly hopeful it'll be OK.

 

Cheers

Andy

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3 minutes ago, AndyE said:

Hi Grum,

It was very satisfying indeed to hear that pump spring into life.

I went back a bit later and it wouldn't start again.  Pushed the red and white wire into the connector and away it went.   I just need to be able to ride the bike about 7 miles to a friend who manages a workshop.  I was thinking I can jump the 2 pins just to get me there.  No issue with doing that I assume?

 

Good shout on eliminating the connector, I may well do that, looks to be a sensible move considering how often it seems to crop up in threads.

 

Will check the battery charge tomorrow, fairly hopeful it'll be OK.

 

Cheers

Andy

Before riding anywhere you want a good connection between the Black/Pink and Red/White wires. AND be aware you are working with HOT wires, that means permanently Powered direct to the battery. So when messing with them either pull the 30amp Main Fuse B OR disconnect a battery lead.

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Yep, I've been pulling a battery lead off when messing with those, I'm not a fan of things that spark and go pop.

 

I'll chuck in a jump wire and fix it down good before I ride anywhere, should be OK to get my where I need to go.  Then assuming the guys give it a clean bill of health it'll get a damn good clean and new foam for the seat....my butt was agony after 90 mins!

 

Cheers

Andy

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2 minutes ago, AndyE said:

Yep, I've been pulling a battery lead off when messing with those, I'm not a fan of things that spark and go pop.

 

I'll chuck in a jump wire and fix it down good before I ride anywhere, should be OK to get my where I need to go.  Then assuming the guys give it a clean bill of health it'll get a damn good clean and new foam for the seat....my butt was agony after 90 mins!

 

Cheers

Andy

Good stuff. Just let's know how the repair goes, then you can get to enjoying the glorious Vee4.

Cheers:beer::wheel:

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Dropped off to the workshop with no issues.  Couldn't get the wire I intended to use to fit in the connector so ended up using a bit of garden wire....not ideal but it got me there😱

 

I actually bought this bike for a mate who isn't in a position to buy one.  He hired a VFR a couple years ago and we rode to the Isle of Man and back via Wales over 3 days so I knew he'd be happy to ride one before I bought it.....but I wasnt counting on it breaking down on the way home!   

I'll let you know what the techs say, but here's hoping this old girl has a few more miles left in her yet. 

 

 

 

20200721_231638.jpg

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Yeppers,

Blue connector is the staring place any time the pump doesn't prime on a 6th gen!

I would clean the connector anyway, but would add a simple new ground wire to the frame from the front side of the harness as I suggest as a test. Just make it a soldered connection on harness and bolt it to the frame, if i remember correctly here are two 8mm head bolts that hold the coil or something right there under the fairing abouve the blue connector!

BR

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