xenorik1 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hello guys, I had a recent post about the front suspension on my 2002 VFR. Even after I had changed the fork springs rate to my 240lb body, the suspension is still not set up right. Every time I go over a bump or a pothole, I am able to feel it. I feel like my front springs are not absorbing the bumps, but they are deflecting. So I am feeling every single bump out there on the road. I also have the preload to 35mm, but for some reason, I had to turn the preload rings al the way out to achieve that. ( I can see all the rings on the adjuster to have 35mm of sag). Also, there is a strange knock that happens every time my front forks has to take a big bump. So, I would like you guys to give me some advice on it. Maybe I didn't put the spacer correctly? I also haven't changed my fork oil as well. But it just seems unusual that my front suspension is deflecting , not absorbing the bumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Duc2V4 Posted June 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted June 30, 2015 Springs are only part of the equation, valving, shim stack, as well as oil viscosity and level play a part in your suspension. As much as I sound like a broken record, I recommend taking with Jamie Daugherty of www.daughertymotorsports.com. Jamie is a member on the forum and has transformed many of our bikes, 2 of mine to be precise. He'll be working on my third bike soon as well. It sounds like your spring rate might be a bit too high or the spacer is incorrect. Oil level and viscosity would be your only options unless you change the internal valving/shim stack or try different spacer or spring rate. (See recommendatuon above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Thank you Duc2V4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zupatun Posted June 30, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted June 30, 2015 Lots of people don't even think of messing with the suspension on their bikes...I mean they NEVER change springs, fork oil, shock springs, shock rebuild et al So, you are on the way to a plush ride if you keep at it. It truly is part of owning a bike and maintenance. Once you set it up right you will notice a huge difference in your bike and you will begin to feel a difference in your riding and confidence. Read a lot on suspension setup. Take a couple days and play with your suspension settings...(if you have them) thorugh the full range of what you can to get a feel for the limits. A lot of people on this website and others go to folks like Jamie and to places like Racetech, Lindemann Engineering, and Traxxion Dynamics-ship them their parts with some pertinent data (riding style, weight with all your gear) and have them mod/repair the front forks/internals and the rear shock to get you in the ball park...only the ball park. That said, they have tons of experience to get you pretty close. IMO you have to do the front AND rear to get the balance on the suspension right...I don't know if you have the factory shock on the bike, but if it has say more than 12K or 15K miles without a rebuild, it is probably near toast...or not performing at its best. That's about all I can suggest without telling you to go buy AK-20's or Ohlins superbike forks and rear shock! They would still need to be sprung and VALVED for your weight and riding style...front and rear. Best o luck! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I will keep tuning at it. I do have JD's rear shocks. they are great. My first step will be to put in new fork oil. Thank you zupatun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hi and welcome first off! What spring rate is on the front & rear? BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hi Baileyrock, The front is 1.1 kg/mm and rear is done by Jamie D. I have the CBR600 rear shock now. I believe the rate is either 17.8 kg or 19.6. As for the front, all i did was took out the old springs and spacers, then i had the new springs and spacers to have the same height as the old ones. I havent done an oil change though. And every time i go over a big bump or a hole, i hear a knock from the forks. like the spacers are hitting the top or something... I also have the preload all the way out to achieve 35mm. I can see all the rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zupatun Posted July 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 1, 2015 I'm 230lbs....have bags on my bike w SWmotech rack...and 0.95s on the front and an Ohlins on the rear (that needs a different rear spring). My ride is plush, I will have to check my static and rider sag...I re-did the valving on the front and with my settings mid-way for Comp and rebound it feels great (I have a CBR F4i front end) I still have 20mm between my zip tie and where the forks are supposed to top out...(and that is over washboard NH and ME roads--serious bumps at speed) is what you're hearing related to the fact that the front end is just stiffer than you're used to? On my '97 the front end (F4 internals) used to rattle the front fairing--you thought the plastic would shake off? Is it this kind of sound or someting "internal" to the forks. Sometimes it is easier to hear what's going on without earplugs...so I do some short rides around town w/o earplugs just to make sure I hear all thats going on with the bike... matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hey Zupatun, I had experienced the same problem with my stock springs, and that was the reason why I got new springs. I don't even think the previous owner changed the fork oil over the life of the bike, which has 54000 miles right now. But if they are stock, it must be 5w, and beside from the oil being dark, I don't have any leaks. The sound I hear every time I go over a big bump or a hole sounds similar to a metal stick hitting the forks. It has the feel to the wheel chattering or deflecting and that doesn't give me a lot of confidence when I am turning, even a simple turn at 30 mph. On the smooth roads, the suspension is fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Can a loose steering head bearing have any effect too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zupatun Posted July 1, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 1, 2015 To eliminate steering head bearing issues...go to the manual and loosen everything up...maybe even do an inspection and re-assemble to instructions. If you have original steering head bearings after 54K miles...you have have an issue...but I can't tell from a description... My steering head bearings on my 4th Gen and my first 5th gen would grrik/clunk when I came to a stop with the front brakes applied...and had a very bad wobble decelerating (no hands on the bars) at 40-35mph... Anyone else? Ideas? Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Hey guys, I uploaded a video on youtube so you guys can hear the sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MCBFUMY1-s or type in 2002 Honda VFR knock I did a circle in the court, and then i went up my driveway going 10mph. the bump up to the driveway is about half an inch. there is a knock at the end when i went up the driveway and the wheel hit the bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Hi Baileyrock, The front is 1.1 kg/mm and rear is done by Jamie D. I have the CBR600 rear shock now. I believe the rate is either 17.8 kg or 19.6. As for the front, all i did was took out the old springs and spacers, then i had the new springs and spacers to have the same height as the old ones. I havent done an oil change though. And every time i go over a big bump or a hole, i hear a knock from the forks. like the spacers are hitting the top or something... I also have the preload all the way out to achieve 35mm. I can see all the rings. Well there is your problem! If the front is a 1.1kg and the rear is if even the 19.6kg the front to rear rates are WAY off!!!! At a minimum the rear should be a 23/24+kg to be anywhere near in balance front to rear. Your current set-up has 50% stiffer front and 25% stiffer rear spring if in fact it's the higher 19.6 kg rear. The front is so stiff compared to the rear that it will tend to bounce over bumps while sending most of the load to the softer rear. If you want to stay with the 1.1 front then get at min. at least a 22 kg rear spring and go from there. BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Ok, thank you. I actually have 20.5 kg/mm . Baileyrock, did you get a chance to view the video? You dont think its the head bearings? I do hear clunks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Ok, thank you. I actually have 20.5 kg/mm . Baileyrock, did you get a chance to view the video? You dont think its the head bearings? I do hear clunks though. Couldn't tell much from the vid, can you mount the camera to the bike and ride around? 1.1's are really firm as well, but would be ok with balanced rear IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrAustin Posted July 3, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 3, 2015 If you can clearly feel the knock you are hearing in your bars, it could be the bearing adjustment. Lift the front and inspect for play. Even slightly loose can be felt, usually. But hearing it would have to be very loose. I just had to adjust my head bearing. Any sound makes me lean toward an internal tube issue. You got the sag with the stock spacer? Was it hard to install the spring and spacer? Meaning, did you have to compress a lot in order to start the thread? Not having changed and measured the oil leaves a ? as to handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted July 3, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 3, 2015 Put a floor jack under the header and lift the the front wheel off the ground(On the center stand ) . Grab the the tubes and see if there any play in the headstock bearing . Sounds like the sliders to me also. Roll On .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Thank you all for replying. The issue turned out to be too much fork oil and bad steering head bearings. I did the "30 mins oil change" and filled it with 130mm of 5w oil. Rides way better now. Going to get the head bearings replaced next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Congrats! The head bearings will not have much effect on ride quality, but the fork oil level sure will. .95's kg fork springs would be a much better match to the 20kg rear spring btw, 1.0 max with current rear spring.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Thank you Bailey Rock. and thank you for all the help guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted July 6, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 6, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motographer Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Congrats! The head bearings will not have much effect on ride quality, but the fork oil level sure will. .95's kg fork springs would be a much better match to the 20kg rear spring btw, 1.0 max with current rear spring.. If the OEM bearings have developed a notch or have loosened up, new ones will have a significant effect on handling and ride quality. I was shocked at the change when I replaced the bearings on my 5th-gen; turn-in became so much easier, and what I thought was a problem with loose fork components turned out to be the old bearings clunking around in the steering head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenorik1 Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Hey guys, I finally solved the problem with the help from you guys and a suspension shop named "Catalyst Reaction" in San Carlos, Ca. With the help of you guys and the suspension shop, I learned that my steering head bearings needed to be replaced after 54,000 miles. So I did that. I also had WAY too much oil in my forks... I learned that air is what cushions the suspension and not oil. I had so much oil that my forks were not moving up and down to absorb the imperfections of the road, but deflecting them. The noise that I would hear every time I hit a bump is not from the steering head bearings, but from the metal piece that allows the calipers to rock back and forth. It normally does not make any noise because there is a rubber piece that goes on the metal piece. I also agree that the spring rates for the front and back should be balanced but it will be something for me to do later on because it has already improved so much from having air and less oil in the forks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrAustin Posted July 13, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 13, 2015 IMG_0766.JPGIMG_0767.JPGIMG_0768.JPG Hey guys, I finally solved the problem with the help from you guys and a suspension shop named "Catalyst Reaction" in San Carlos, Ca. With the help of you guys and the suspension shop, I learned that my steering head bearings needed to be replaced after 54,000 miles. So I did that. I also had WAY too much oil in my forks... I learned that air is what cushions the suspension and not oil. I had so much oil that my forks were not moving up and down to absorb the imperfections of the road, but deflecting them. The noise that I would hear every time I hit a bump is not from the steering head bearings, but from the metal piece that allows the calipers to rock back and forth. It normally does not make any noise because there is a rubber piece that goes on the metal piece. I also agree that the spring rates for the front and back should be balanced but it will be something for me to do later on because it has already improved so much from having air and less oil in the forks. Wow,nice catch on all counts. Thanks for the follow up. Always good to learn from others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Congrats! The head bearings will not have much effect on ride quality, but the fork oil level sure will. .95's kg fork springs would be a much better match to the 20kg rear spring btw, 1.0 max with current rear spring.. If the OEM bearings have developed a notch or have loosened up, new ones will have a significant effect on handling and ride quality. I was shocked at the change when I replaced the bearings on my 5th-gen; turn-in became so much easier, and what I thought was a problem with loose fork components turned out to be the old bearings clunking around in the steering head. I didn't say handling, just ride quality in reference to his harsh riding forks . My head bearings were so bad they would lock in centered position anytime the front end was unloaded! I was surprised at how little effect new tapered roller bearing made over the badly worn bearings! BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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