Member Contributer Skids Posted February 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 Probably one of my dumb questions, but with the imminent arrival of my new (150-mile old) 1200FD and the inevitable deterioration of oem bolts on the bike due to the crap they put on our roads in the UK over winter which seems to last for months afterwards, I'd like to swap out as many of the oem nuts & bolts for stainless as I can and was wondering if anyone had drawn up a list of sizes and measurements of those that can be replaced on the 1200? I know there are probably bike-specific packs you can buy as I did this for my 5th & 6th Gens but the packs did not include many of the nuts & bolts I was hoping for and I know a lot of you guys are very pedantic about farkling your bikes properly so I thought I'd ask the question. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm in a progress of changing every fastener to stainless - until now about 60% complete. There`s no specific kit for this bike. I have a list but not yet completed. But I believe you don't need any specific list. 90% fasteners ale listed in the Honda OEM parts fiche - the length and a size. M5, M6 and M8 are metric so thers no problem- M10 and M12 have the1,25 fine thread pitch. I got these for this shop: http://www.a2stainless.co.uk/ Some cant be changed some must be selected very carefully like brake bolts. As a mechanic engineer I strongly suggest to get yourself a kit form problot - mine is on the way. Normal stainless steel either class A2 or A4 can not withstand the specs of 12.9 high tensile steel. I mean rotor bolts, caliper bolts and pad retainers - the have all you need. These can be torqued to the OEM specs with no worries There is one problem I have. Honda like to make things complicated and 70% of the panels have special shoulder type M5 fastener. For M6(which there are only a few) you can get yourself a set of stainless collars from this fella: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Fairing-Bolt-Spacers-Collars-Yamaha-Honda-Ducati-Suzuki-m5-m6-2mm-10mm-/191214541228 You need 6x4 combined with a button screw. Thers nothing for M5 I'm afraid. I just draw a CAD for fastener and I plan to send few quotes to china - but they probably will want you to order a 1000 like pieces minimum. I will give a try anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just buy a bulk pack of M6 in various lengths, decide on hex or cap head & a various pack of other sizes M5,M8,M10 bolts in various lengths. Remember long bolts can always be shortened ! Also call &/or visit the place you order from & get many bolts & a few nuts, unlike the bulk packs where half the count is washers that you rarely need or use ! I prefer to use alloy in non load bearing areas, like case covers, body work etc, then use Ti where they are exposed to the elements, such as wheels brake calipers etc. Then use stainless where strength is required &/or it may be exposed to dirt/spray, but NOT visible unless you really look. These options reduce the cost whilst maximizing the weight saving & looks, as well as reducing corrosion related issues ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted February 16, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm in a progress of changing every fastener to stainless - until now about 60% complete. There`s no specific kit for this bike. I have a list but not yet completed. But I believe you don't need any specific list. 90% fasteners ale listed in the Honda OEM parts fiche - the length and a size. M5, M6 and M8 are metric so thers no problem- M10 and M12 have the1,25 fine thread pitch. I got these for this shop: http://www.a2stainless.co.uk/ Some cant be changed some must be selected very carefully like brake bolts. As a mechanic engineer I strongly suggest to get yourself a kit form problot - mine is on the way. Normal stainless steel either class A2 or A4 can not withstand the specs of 12.9 high tensile steel. I mean rotor bolts, caliper bolts and pad retainers - the have all you need. These can be torqued to the OEM specs with no worries There is one problem I have. Honda like to make things complicated and 70% of the panels have special shoulder type M5 fastener. For M6(which there are only a few) you can get yourself a set of stainless collars from this fella: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Fairing-Bolt-Spacers-Collars-Yamaha-Honda-Ducati-Suzuki-m5-m6-2mm-10mm-/191214541228 You need 6x4 combined with a button screw. Thers nothing for M5 I'm afraid. I just draw a CAD for fastener and I plan to send few quotes to china - but they probably will want you to order a 1000 like pieces minimum. I will give a try anyway. Mmm, I understand the drift of what yr saying but as to which bolt to order from ProBolt, esp for the sundry items like rotors, calipers etc, then I haven't a clue. For instance I have no idea what a class A2 or A4 even refers to never mind 12.9 high tensile steel. I guess that's why simpletons like me prefer specific kits or someone elses list. Thanks though. Just buy a bulk pack of M6 in various lengths, decide on hex or cap head & a various pack of other sizes M5,M8,M10 bolts in various lengths. Remember long bolts can always be shortened ! Also call &/or visit the place you order from & get many bolts & a few nuts, unlike the bulk packs where half the count is washers that you rarely need or use ! I prefer to use alloy in non load bearing areas, like case covers, body work etc, then use Ti where they are exposed to the elements, such as wheels brake calipers etc. Then use stainless where strength is required &/or it may be exposed to dirt/spray, but NOT visible unless you really look. These options reduce the cost whilst maximizing the weight saving & looks, as well as reducing corrosion related issues ! This still seems like a minefield to me. Now there are 3 types of metal I can buy! Thanks for the reply though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Will post the probolt numbers later. Right now Im at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted February 16, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 Will post the probolt numbers later. Right now Im at work. As always, you are a star! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Star LOL M10(1,25)x70 - PART NO: LSSHX1070F – 4 pcs - front caliper bolt Stainless Steel Brake Pad Tokico Drilled Race Spec - PART NO: LSSPINBP011R – 4pcs - front brake pads retainer pin Caliper Pin Rear Individual Race Spec - PART NO: LSSPINBP005RZ2 – 1pc - rear brake pad retainer pin Bleed Nipple M8 Front Brake Caliper - PART NO: LSSBN8Z1 – 5 pcs M6x17 Disc Bolt Honda Front - PART NO: LSSDISCHONFR – 10pcs - front rotors bolt M8x20 Disc Bolt Honda Rear - PART NO: LSSDISCHONRE – 5stk - rear rotor bolt Stainless Steel Flanged Hex M10 x (1.25mm) x 45mm - PART NO: LSSHX1045F - 2pcs - rear caliper bolt I don't have them yet but I have measured the old ones and everything seems to be ok. I suggest you wait until I'm 101% sure they fit. As for the other fasteners. I cant point you which ones you should order from Stig fasteners for example but you need to tell me what do you want to change. I'm a stainless psychopath so I want to change them all even those which are not much visible. Just buy a bulk pack of M6 in various lengths, decide on hex or cap head & a various pack of other sizes M5,M8,M10 bolts in various lengths. Remember long bolts can always be shortened ! Also call &/or visit the place you order from & get many bolts & a few nuts, unlike the bulk packs where half the count is washers that you rarely need or use ! I prefer to use alloy in non load bearing areas, like case covers, body work etc, then use Ti where they are exposed to the elements, such as wheels brake calipers etc. Then use stainless where strength is required &/or it may be exposed to dirt/spray, but NOT visible unless you really look. These options reduce the cost whilst maximizing the weight saving & looks, as well as reducing corrosion related issues ! Titanium on this bike is a complete waste of money. You will gain nothing besides the FAT bill to be paid. Sure, go for it if you are racing the sport liter bike, to drop every single kg you can. But here? Nahhhhhh... To your knowledge standard stainless fasteners are rated to A2 norm which corresponds to 7.0 class for standard fasteners - 5.8, 8.8, 10.9, 12.9 and so on. There"s also an A4 norm which corresponds to class 10.0 - hardly available - usually for nuts only. Brake rotors or calipers fasteners are ALWAYS rated to 12.9 minimum - A2 stainless would be about a half of that. Please do not advise using the stainless to high stress application becouse one day someone might be in trouble because of this nonsense. No offence tho... The ProBolt fasteners are an exception here - they are machined to the highest spec using the hight tensile stainless steel and they can withstand the OEM torque spec - thus they cost like 5 to 10 times more. ProBolt makes RACE spec fasteners. I see no problem using the A2 stainless for engine covers, fairing, subframe or for master cylinder. I went with Allen style head because I believe they give the best look. Don't forget that 80% VFR 1200 fasteners are FLANGED so you need to use a washer under the Allen bolt. I used two washers in a few places like: -Oil pan, right and left engine cover - they all run the same bolt - M6x28 flanged. Since 28mm length is hardly available I went with M6x30 Allen and two washers - DIN 433 Allen washer and DIN 7980 Allen spring washer. Together they give like 3.2mm more so 30mm length fits perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted February 16, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 Star LOL M10(1,25)x70 - PART NO: LSSHX1070F – 4 pcs - front caliper bolt Stainless Steel Brake Pad Tokico Drilled Race Spec - PART NO: LSSPINBP011R – 4pcs - front brake pads retainer pin Caliper Pin Rear Individual Race Spec - PART NO: LSSPINBP005RZ2 – 1pc - rear brake pad retainer pin Bleed Nipple M8 Front Brake Caliper - PART NO: LSSBN8Z1 – 5 pcs M6x17 Disc Bolt Honda Front - PART NO: LSSDISCHONFR – 12pcs - front rotors bolt M8x20 Disc Bolt Honda Rear - PART NO: LSSDISCHONRE – 5stk - rear rotor bolt Stainless Steel Flanged Hex M10 x (1.25mm) x 45mm - PART NO: LSSHX1045F - 2pcs - rear caliper bolt I don't have them yet but I have measured the old ones and everything seems to be ok. I suggest you wait until I'm 101% sure they fit. As for the other fasteners. I cant point you which ones you should order from Stig fasteners for example but you need to tell me what do you want to change. I'm a stainless psychopath so I want to change them all even those which are not much visible. Thanks for that m8, that's brilliant. I don't have the bike yet but when I do I'll start noting what I'd like to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Check the price first - ProBolt ain't cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted February 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 Probably not a bad idea to use some anti-seize with the stainless stuff. Stainless bolts will gall more and easier than regular steel bolts. Especially if it's a straight through bolt with a stainless fastener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Probably not a bad idea to use some anti-seize with the stainless stuff. Stainless bolts will gall more and easier than regular steel bolts. Especially if it's a straight through bolt with a stainless fastener. +1 to that. As the A2 stainless steel is an Austenitic alloy (CrNi) its structure is very fine-grained (mainly because of chromium)- imagine yourself it looks like a sandpaper under the micro scope. Thus it creates a lot of friction especially as mentioned, combined with another stainless part. Copper grease is your friend here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted February 16, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted February 16, 2015 No worries on the advice, but I don't recall giving any re stainless in high tensile areas. As far as I recall very few bike parts have high tensile fasteners, head bolts being one. Brake disc mounting bolts are massively over engineered & I'm sure I said use Ti here, but most other steel fasteners on bikes are just average strength which stainless will easily replace with no inherent strength issues. In fact if it was not for corrosion issues, many could be replaced with 7075 alloy, which race teams do, but they strip & clean regularly & never go out on salted roads ! Ti is NOT just for the weight saving, in high exposure areas, like front wheel/brakes etc that are continually covered in spray & brake dust which sticks & acts a moisture store, then as Ti effectively does NOT corrode it cleans up easily & keeps its excellent look all the time. Even the best stainless will rust in UK salted roads, I know I have a lifetime of using them & riding everyday in the worst weather when I was a courier. OK we didn't have ACF50 & stuff like that back then, but are you going to spray your brakes with that stuff ? I'm not. As always YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just don't want to argue today but I must give you one question m8. Do you really think, by simple thinking that titanium alloy used in fasteners is like many times stronger, again by simple thinking then stainless steel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symbiotix Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I would love an all inclusive kit.... Someone make one and take my money!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I could figure something out but I has to be a few more then just You :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted February 17, 2015 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 17, 2015 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoystonRocket2 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 G, I can help you with who to go to for UK supply. It might be something I want to do too so we may be able to combine purchasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fasty Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 we are workong on "a pack" please can you ad +1,+2 and further to see how many would be intrested?? here i start with me +1 as far as bolts tht hold covers and fairings i think its ok not for bolts on wheels and brakes! stay off people, not before engineering and calculating.rvs is not as steady as 8.8bolts!!! further suggestions for adding to the "pack" are welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symbiotix Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I will be +2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 In which part of the bike we should be aiming for? -Engine cases, sump bolts? -water pump, clutch s.c. etc? -Fairing fasteners? -Front fork kit? -Air filter screws? -sub frame bolts? -all of them? No chance for brake bolts. Those shall be obtained form ProBolt. Trust me with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fasty Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 DONT THINK BECAUS U CANT EASY DRILL OR SAW IN STAINLESS OR TI IT IS A STRONG MATERIAL!!! in fect rvs i so soft it sticks in your cutting tools so iy becomes "hard to cut" but not hard compaired to ... 34crni or so (like8.8bolts) to hold fairings and so ok, butnot for mechanical stressed parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well as a milling tool designer - daily job - I'd say you have the wrong tools for TI. TI requires cutting geometry similar to stainless - actually those materials are quite close if we discuss the machining ability here. You can't use the alu or steel tools for TI or stainless - it does't work well at all. Also worth to mention those two have similar strength capabilities while used as a fastener - TI is just a lot lighter. So my point was and shall always BE, using the TI fasteners in the application other then racing(as we speak motorcycles) is a complete misunderstanding. If you are after the fancy look - polished stainless is fancy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Ok, it seems that I will be able to get those fairing screws soon. I should have 50-100 pcs as a tester pack - you need 24pcs for the fairing. They want me to order a larger quantity around 500pcs - I can keep a part lets say 100 but for the rest I need some USER orders. I can have them probably for 2$ each - so 50$ for a fairing screw kit. I was working lately on the kit for this bike. I can do that. The kit would contain around 180 pcs of screws and bolts and around 350 washers and some nuts too. This would include almost everything(honestly like 70% fasteners)major like engine covers bolts, fairing screws, subframe bolts, airbox screws, driveshaft cover screws, fork and yokes bolts any many more. Hard to list everything but should be enough interest so I will. I shall then also create a list and a small tutorial what is what. It will not contain the brake fasteners - you must brake your wallet with ProBolt for those. I would say 10 users to start - around 150€ a kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symbiotix Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Would the fairing screw kit inlcude the front rad cowl screws? I find they take a beating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satariel Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 They are listed in a big kit. They are not the same type as the 24pcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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