Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 If you look in the service manual (download section) there should be a few troubleshooting tests and steps which may help you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Yeah, I just downloaded it via the provided link last night. My kids visit their mom tonight, so I figure I will go through those tonight when I get home from the office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JeffInFranklinTN Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 The old air filter looked dirty, but didn't look clogged. In need of changing for sure, but didn't look like it would prevent it from starting. I have a new air filter on order. I may put the airbox back on tonight and take a video of it trying to start with the old air filter before pulling the injectors, and give the spark plugs a second look for good measure. It just seemed kinda logical to me that, given that is cranked and ran well before storage, it must be the old fuel gumming up the system. But then again, something seeming logical to me has no bearing on what is actually the cause I know.If you haven't removed the fuel rail...then it's quite possible there is old fuel still in the rail and or fuel line to the rail. You've got spark and fuel pump is working. Don't see how ignition timing could get off from just sitting...gotta be stale fuel. Samsung Droid Charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 The old air filter looked dirty, but didn't look clogged. In need of changing for sure, but didn't look like it would prevent it from starting. I have a new air filter on order. I may put the airbox back on tonight and take a video of it trying to start with the old air filter before pulling the injectors, and give the spark plugs a second look for good measure. It just seemed kinda logical to me that, given that is cranked and ran well before storage, it must be the old fuel gumming up the system. But then again, something seeming logical to me has no bearing on what is actually the cause I know.If you haven't removed the fuel rail...then it's quite possible there is old fuel still in the rail and or fuel line to the rail. You've got spark and fuel pump is working. Don't see how ignition timing could get off from just sitting...gotta be stale fuel.Samsung Droid Charge Would old fuel not have cycled through with the countless times I have primed the it and attempted cranking it? Over the course of two days, I tried cranking it so much that I drained a brand new, completely charged battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BCmcrider Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 If the battery or connections aren't completely up to par, you may just not have enough oomph to turn it over fast enough in it's lethargic state. I would try both priming with fresh fuel down each intake throat and jumping from a larger battery. Once you clear the cobwebs out, it will likely start on it's own the next time. If it doesn't fire with priming, you've either already flooded it beforehand, or there is in fact a problem other than the injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer B4V4 Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sounds like everyone is trying to dissuade you from removing the injectors. I've got a restore running on 2 cylinders after sitting outside & uncovered for 10 years (and no, it's not coil related). Please, if you decide to pull the rails please take some pics for me. I'll be posting my tear-down in about a month and you'd be saving me some time I'm sure! I'm also getting spark & fuel, just no ignition on one side (cannot recall which side) so like you, I'm thinking injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sounds like everyone is trying to dissuade you from removing the injectors. I've got a restore running on 2 cylinders after sitting outside & uncovered for 10 years (and no, it's not coil related). Please, if you decide to pull the rails please take some pics for me. I'll be posting my tear-down in about a month and you'd be saving me some time I'm sure! I'm also getting spark & fuel, just no ignition on one side (cannot recall which side) so like you, I'm thinking injectors. Look at the service manual linked earlier in the thread. It has step by step instructions, with pictures. It is probably more informative than pictures from me would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JeffInFranklinTN Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 The old air filter looked dirty, but didn't look clogged. In need of changing for sure, but didn't look like it would prevent it from starting. I have a new air filter on order. I may put the airbox back on tonight and take a video of it trying to start with the old air filter before pulling the injectors, and give the spark plugs a second look for good measure. It just seemed kinda logical to me that, given that is cranked and ran well before storage, it must be the old fuel gumming up the system. But then again, something seeming logical to me has no bearing on what is actually the cause I know.If you haven't removed the fuel rail...then it's quite possible there is old fuel still in the rail and or fuel line to the rail. You've got spark and fuel pump is working. Don't see how ignition timing could get off from just sitting...gotta be stale fuel.Samsung Droid Charge Would old fuel not have cycled through with the countless times I have primed the it and attempted cranking it? Over the course of two days, I tried cranking it so much that I drained a brand new, completely charged battery.I could be wrong but Im gonna say yes.Samsung Droid Charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2014 At this point, I wouldn't dissuade anything. Being in the south (I lived in Shreveport for a few years) I would say that the chances that rodents ate one of the wires is probably as likely as the injectors clogging with varnish. You can test individual injectors to see if they are hard stuck with a 9v battery and two wires, but this won't tell you anything about the quality of the spray. You can put a screwdriver up against the injector body and the handle against your ear to listen for the click of the injector. The other possibilities I can think of are low fuel pressure, weak spark, slow cranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Here is the link to me trying to crank the bike. Sorry for the poor quality, it was shot with my phone. But the sound is relatively good https://youtu.be/NlwGap3LAgM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted April 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2014 Well, it sounds fine. Sounds like it has plenty of juice. But can't say it narrows it down for me. When you crank, does the exhaust reek of fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Not really, just puffs of grey smoke Before changing the spark plugs, it didn't even do that much. Would turn over, but not hit at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted April 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2014 That's sort of what the ST sounded like before I did an immense carb cleaning. The slow jets would clog from sitting and other things in the fuel lines. Here's a silly thought. Fuel filter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Haven't checked that, I'll look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2014 Damn, she wants to go on one cylinder Unfortunately, the fuel filter is back inside the tank... I guess I would continue with your current path. Pull the tank off and swap the filter. While it is off, pop the throttle bodes off and clean the injectors. When the throttle body is out, survey the wire harness, looking for any signs of animal damage. Sounds like everything is there. Just another thought - fuel pressure regulator? There should be a vacuum line connected to it. Pull the line off and make sure it doesn't have any fuel in it. Some people have swapped for the 43 psi regulator on the 99-00 blackbird or turbo city fuel pressure regulator (discontinued I believe), for smoother response at low throttle opening. Usually the FPR failure is a rich condition though, from what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I just checked, it isn't the fuel pump or a clogged filter. Just checked fuel flow coming from the return line, I got just over 5 oz in just over 10 seconds. Supposed to get 5 oz in 10 seconds, so at least the pump is ruled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BCmcrider Posted April 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2014 Not trying to dissuade you but if the problem is the injectors being clogged, it should start and run well when primed, if only for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 2, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2014 True, spritz some gas down the throttle bodies before start or starting fluid will work too. If you do the starting fluid, put the airbox lid on and spray some up the snorkel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I put the return line back on and was going to attempt to start it with the air filter off, just to see if it acted any different. Figured that may point to a clogged air filter. But, now the fuel pump is no longer running. No voltage. Shorting across the fuel cut relay still causes it to come on. I have the diagram to trace out and find the problem, but right now my nerves are shot. I'm packing it in, maybe pick back up Thursday when I'm off work. Thanks for the suggestions. When I get whatever this is found, I will start trying those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 In case anyone is interested, here is a quick update. Had to take a step backwards because, as noted before, the fuel pump stopped coming on when the ignition is turned on. Per the service manual, I verified the fuel cut relay, engine stop relay, and bank angle sensor. Also verified that, when the ignition is turned on, the engine stop relay actuates as it should (I can hear it click and touching it I can feel it actuate), allowing current to flow to the fuel control relay. As an additional step, I swapped the relays around (put the relay that was on the fuel cut relay on the engine stop relay socket). It actuated as well when the ignition is turned on. So I can say with 100% certainty it is not the relays or the bank angle sensor. Checked all fuses and found none blown. Also shorted across the fuel control relay with the ignition on, causing the fuel pump to run. As such, I can say with 100% certainty it is not the fuel pump or a fuse in the circuit. This leaves me with the ecm and the wire between it and the fuel cut relay. Either the ecm is not allowing the fuel control relay to actuate, or there is a disconnect in the wiring. As I don't have an ecm test box and test harness, I am currently trying to locate a pin out of the ecm connectors so I can test the continuity of control line for the relay, see if the ecm is actuating the relay. Also checked the self diagnostic for kicks. It has no fault info. I will keep this thread posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Answer me this if anyone knows. When the ignition is turned on, I have ~12V at the coil of the fuel cut relay. This is connected to the ecm, which grounds the signal allowing current to flow through the coil and the actuating the relay. The obvious answer is an open circuit between the relay and the ecm (I am aware that the ecm can open this circuit to kill the fuel pump, but occam's razor says check this before digging deeper). Does anyone know what pin this goes to on the ecm without using a test box so I can check continuity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted April 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2014 Ok, so you've found the service check connector (used to check codes). Locate the ecu connector that is connected to the service check connector. A brown wire runs from the service check connector to pin 1 of the ecu connector. The fuel cut relay connects to pin 5. Pin 2 is empty, so the pins go 1 (brown wire, service check), _blank_, 3, 4, 5 (fuel relay). You should verify that a brown/black wire comes into the other side of the connector at pin 5. I can take pictures at home later if you need help. Also, you should flex the wires while checking for continuity in case the fault is intermittent and related to stress on the wiring harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted April 3, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2014 ...You can test individual injectors to see if they are hard stuck with a 9v battery and two wires... Is that the voltage for a 5th gen injector? Is the 6th gen the same? Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Ok, so you've found the service check connector (used to check codes). Locate the ecu connector that is connected to the service check connector. A brown wire runs from the service check connector to pin 1 of the ecu connector. The fuel cut relay connects to pin 5. Pin 2 is empty, so the pins go 1 (brown wire, service check), _blank_, 3, 4, 5 (fuel relay). You should verify that a brown/black wire comes into the other side of the connector at pin 5. I can take pictures at home later if you need help. Also, you should flex the wires while checking for continuity in case the fault is intermittent and related to stress on the wiring harness. Awesome! My kids are now home, but I will try to steal some time later to check the continuity between the relay and pin 5. Thanks! ...You can test individual injectors to see if they are hard stuck with a 9v battery and two wires... Is that the voltage for a 5th gen injector? Is the 6th gen the same? Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk Unless I am mistaken, I think the voltage used to actuate the injectors is 3.5v. But a 9v will do it, just prolly don't want to do anything more than a quick shot to verify that it actuates for fear of burning up the coil. I don't know how robust the coil is in there when it comes to withstanding the current from that. Or you could run two C or D batteries in series to get 3v, which should do the job if they aren't stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Snuck out while the kids were playing. I definitely have intermitten connectivity at best at pin 5. I was even able to fiddle with the wire right at the pin and once or twice get the pump to come on. I guess I need to figure out how to pull that wire and re-crimp it in that socket. Now I am wondering how well the rest of the connections are at the pins. I wonder if a similar issue is what was causing the bike to only try and run on one cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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