Ohlins Spring Rates

[Solomoto]

UPDATE

I finally got my shock back from Ohlins with the 1200 lb spring. It took me about 5 hours to install start to finish. I would be much quicker a 2nd time. I struggled to get the old shock out the bottom until I took weight off the fully extended rear wheel. Putting a barbell weight under the tire allowed the linkage to move out of the way so I could drop the shock. Installing the new shock was also a bit tricky. I'd recommend putting thin socks (as I did) or plastic bags over the preload adjuster and external reservoir so they don't get scraped passing through the swingarm.

I took the bike out for a quick ride last night after the installation and....WOW! What a difference. The vague feeling which gave me no confidence going into turns is totally gone. Also, it seems silky smooth. Going from 1024 lbs (stock) to 1200 lbs definitely hasn't hurt ride quality.

I wonder if the spring will settle any. The rear is sitting a little higher than I like. I had to remove all external preload and still could only get 30mm of sag with me on the bike (kitted). The bike alone gives only 8mm of sag.

It feels fantastic now (and ultimately that's what matters) but I'd rather have some external preload that I can dial out. I've found that when I get new tires (with higher centers) I often have to lower the rear slightly otherwise the handling can be a bit twitchy. I'm running on tires with about 4000 miles on them, so the rear is starting to square off.

Now, I wonder what difference a fork upgrade would make. :-)

G.

Hi Dobs,

I happen to live in San Jose also and I had Rob at Evolution Suspension set up my Penske 8983 and tune my forks. Originally I had 1200 lb/in. on my shock but for me that was too much, I had Rob install the stock VFR spring (1035 lb/in.) and this worked out just right for me. The rule of thumb I've found among tuners is 10mm free sag plus 25-30mm with rider for a total of 35-40mm total static sag. Unlike what a previous poster said, the slope of the spring force vs. displacement function requires 2 data points to determine the spring rate (or slope of the curve) which is why both free sag and static sag are needed to determine the spring rate.

For the forks, he adjusted the compression and rebound stack for general road sport riding, and the springs are now linear 1kg/mm vs. the original progressive. For your weight you might need 1.1kg/mm. Also, the stock sag was 48mm (for my weight), the internal preload was adjusted to give 40mm sag. Since this raised the front end ride height by 8mm compared to stock, I raised the fork stanchions by 8mm to restore the original ride height.

Once you get the internals tuned, then it's a matter of tuning the external compression and rebound to give the desired ride. Rebound has the most dynamic effect, too much rebound and the ride becomes very harsh but stable, too little rebound and the ride becomes wallowy or floaty with less control. According to basic tuning guideline from Penske, the easiest process is to separate the rebound and compression adjustments. First dial out rebound to minimum and compression to minimum. Find a straight road with moderate bumps and gradually increase compression damping until the initial hit starts to become noticeably sharp, then back off a click or two. The ride will be wallowy or floaty at this point without the rebound damping. Then gradually increase rebound damping until the floatyness stabilizes, too much rebound and you'll notice the ride start to become harsh (almost like too much compression). Next take it out to your favorite sweepers and check for stability, if it still feels wallowy, then dial in more rebound a click at a time. The same idea works for both front and rear. It will take a bit of experimentation to help distinguish the front from the rear response as sometimes what feels like the back end may be caused by the front end or vice versa. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the very useful info Solomoto. Do you mind me asking how much you weigh with gear?

I weigh about 160 lbs. ready to ride.

[alleyoop]

Reviving this thread.

185lb rider here. I just got my Ohlins from Hard Racing. And they put an Ohlins -74 spring on it, which I find is the stock rate.

Just curious about hearing the rider sag / ride height numbers and riding impressions of those who got the 1200lb spring.

Seems the 160lb rider here likes the stock spring (1028lb). And the 215b riders are being fitted with the 1200lb (by Traxxion and FG Gubellini.

Seems that I fall somewhere in the middle at 185lb, but Hard Racing gave me the stock spring rate.

Dobs (215b rider) reports getting 42mm of rider sag with only 12 preload clicks out with a 1085lb spring. Those number seem right on to me and gives plenty of room to add preload with a passenger. So 1200 spring might be a little much.

I just got the bike and still need to measure the rear sag. I definitely need the improved damping. But I won't know if I need a stiffer spring until I measure the sag with the stock spring.

[alleyoop]

Okay, here are my numbers:

188lb rider, geared up, with top box. Rear shock and springs are stock.

Rear Static Sag..........21mm

Front Static Sag.........46mm

Rear Ride Height........50mm

Front Ride Height.......46mm

When adding a 30lb weight to the top box (to simulate commuting load), I got

46mm with 18 clicks preload and

53mm with 0 clicks preload.

Total preload adjustability: 7mm. To me this highlights the importance getting the correct spring rate.

Results

Rear ride height is 15-25mm too soft

Front ride height is 6-11mm too soft

And that's just with a rider (no passenger)

Hard Racing delivered with my Ohlins with the stock spring rate, so I will call Ohlins to figure out what spring rate I need to reduce the rear ride height by 15-25mm.

[alleyoop]

I wonder if the spring will settle any. The rear is sitting a little higher than I like. I had to remove all external preload and still could only get 30mm of sag with me on the bike (kitted). The bike alone gives only 8mm of sag.

After reading that FG and Traxxion were fitting 1200lb/in springs, I was inclined to choose that rate.

But if you can't get more than 30mm of rider sag with zero preload, that tells me that the 1200lb/in Ohlins spring is too hard, especially since Ohlins reportedly is recommending a 43mm rear rider sag based on 130mm rear wheel travel of the VFR1200.

I wonder why FG and Traxxion are fitting 1200lb springs.

I called Ohlins this morning and told the first rep that my sag numbers are 15mm off (too soft) with the stock spring and shock so thought I needed an Ohlins spring that's stiffer than the one they sent with the shock (the stock rate of 1028).

But he said that the stock spring rate would work with the Ohlins because the Ohlins shock itself provided support (I'm not sure how) in addition to the spring that should result in more ideal sag numbers.

I have a call in to speak with a second Ohlins service person who knows more about ideal sag for the VFR so should know after that conversation. But at this point (based on 215lb rider reporting only 30mm sag at zero preload) I think the 1200 is too much for a 185lb-ish rider (w/o gear). Right now I'm leaning toward maybe one rate higher than stock but no more.

[alleyoop]

Here are some other factors to consider:

Information from the Ohlins (Europe) website indicates that a very low preload adjustment may give a harsher ride, which would work against using a spring rate on the stiffer end. This might explain why Ohlins specifies a spring that makes the rider dial in a good amount of preload.

The spring pre-load affects the ride height, it does not affect the spring stiffness. Therefore, on models with a linkage to the shock absorber, the suspension may actually feel harder when you reduce the pre-load and the shock absorber gets into the harder range of the link system. -Ohlins
https://www.ohlins.eu/en/motorcycle/technics/Setting-up-your-Bike-part-2-spring-preload--3554/

In addition, Ohlins says that the rear of shaft driven bikes tend to rise during acceleration, so they recommend MORE sag than usual. 35-45mm instead of 25-40mm.

The recommended sag (w/o factoring in the shaft drive) based on 1/3 of 127-130mm of rear wheel travel yields about 42mm rear rider sag, which makes the 45mm shaft drive recommendation seem even more accurate.

These recommendations would caution against going too stiff with the rear spring as the possible low preload setting could add harshness, and the higher spring rate could potentially lower the sag below what's recommended for the VFR1200's rear wheel travel and shaft drive characteristics.

So at this stage, I will consider staying with the stock spring rate. I'm still waiting to speak with the Ohlins service rep.

[alleyoop]

After talks with the USA Ohlins service rep, I decided on the Ohlins -79 spring (that's 1085lb/in)--that's one step stiffer than stock. I'm 185lb. I'm fairly confident that this rate will put me in the sweet spot of my sag numbers.

I'll provide a ride report after I install it.

Kudos to Ohlins USA for changing out the original spring and shipping it back at no charge.

[Switchblade]

After talks with the USA Ohlins service rep, I decided on the Ohlins -79 spring (that's 1085lb/in)--that's one step stiffer than stock. I'm 185lb. I'm fairly confident that this rate will put me in the sweet spot of my sag numbers.

I'll provide a ride report after I install it.

Kudos to Ohlins USA for changing out the original spring and shipping it back at no charge.

Mity nice of them .

Roll On ..

[alleyoop]

Okay I've installed the new front and rear suspension.

Traxxion AK-20 front.

Ohlins VFR1200 shock rear.

Front spring is 1.15. Rear is 1085 (that's one step stiffer than Ohlins stock spring--1028--on their shock for the VFR1200)

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Before I was getting about 50mm rear with the stock shock set with about half of its preload--too soft.

With the new 1085 spring, I could only get 10mm static sag on the rear with preload almost all the way out (TWO CLICKS). So the stock Ohlins spring--1028--probably would have worked fine but the step up to 1085 gives me substantial preload remaining to add passenger and cargo.

If you weight 185lb, don't let anyone tell you to fit a 1200lb spring!

Hope that helps.

[swimmer]

Okay I've installed the new front and rear suspension.

Traxxion AK-20 front.

Ohlins VFR1200 shock rear.

Front spring is 1.15. Rear is 1085 (that's one step stiffer than Ohlins stock spring--1028--on their shock for the VFR1200)

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Before I was getting about 50mm rear with the stock shock set with about half of its preload--too soft.

With the new 1085 spring, I could only get 10mm static sag on the rear with preload almost all the way out (TWO CLICKS). So the stock Ohlins spring--1028--probably would have worked fine but the step up to 1085 gives me substantial preload remaining to add passenger and cargo.

If you weight 185lb, don't let anyone tell you to fit a 1200lb spring!

Hope that helps.

I’ve also got a traxxion front ohlins rear set up.

Traxxion gave me a 1.1kg spring. I am maybe 160lbs with gear. I’ve always felt it was too heavy. They had me 8 turns in on preload which is almost all the way in. That seemed excessive as well. I am not running any of the settings they gave me.

Did you do your traxxion install yourself? If so, when you were threading on your fork caps onto the piston rods after adjusting your screw adjusters as indicated in the instructions, did both caps bottom onto the rods without the feeling you were binding/compressing the metering rod? My rebound side went on what I considered normal but the compression cap seemed like it was pressing down on the metering rod as I was tightening everything. This would seem to have the effect of creating a preset of additional compression, like you have the compression adjusting screw turned in even if its backed out all the way. If you don’t bottom the cap it would seem like you have an undefined starting point for your compression adjustment.

Does this question makes sense? I'd really like to hear from someone else on this as traxxion didn't seem to care.

[Terry]

Bearing in mind I know nothing about the Traxxion parts, but I am very familiar with assembling forks with rebound adjusting needles.

I would initially set the compression needle fully "in" i.e. at it's maximum position in the cap, then thread the cap onto the damper rod until the needle bottoms out lightly. Hold the cap and rod in place, and back the needle out a turn, then tighten the locknut onto the cap. Now set the needle where you want e.g. 1-2 turns out from fully closed.

Doing this, you will be able to fully close the needle valve when the needle is screwed in, but you won't risk damaging the needle as the cap/locknut are tightened.

[swimmer]

Bearing in mind I know nothing about the Traxxion parts, but I am very familiar with assembling forks with rebound adjusting needles.

I would initially set the compression needle fully "in" i.e. at it's maximum position in the cap, then thread the cap onto the damper rod until the needle bottoms out lightly. Hold the cap and rod in place, and back the needle out a turn, then tighten the locknut onto the cap. Now set the needle where you want e.g. 1-2 turns out from fully closed.

Doing this, you will be able to fully close the needle valve when the needle is screwed in, but you won't risk damaging the needle as the cap/locknut are tightened.

Yes, this is sort of what I did after taking things apart since I sensed something was not correct. Traxxion, if I recall, says to turn the screw in two turns before putting on the cap. Since I felt binding/pressure on the metering rod before the cap bottomed the first time I put it on, when I put in on the 2nd time I just threaded it on until I felt pressure and stopped there and tightened the lock nut. But really, how much have I pushed in the metering rod at this point? Who knows. It just doesn't seem precise or correct.

[Terry]

The usual thing with these adjusting needles is to set them on the basis of "clicks or turns out from fully closed". The reference point should always be from fully closed as that is a fixed value. Fully closed means the tip of the needle is in contact with the seat i.e. the needle valve won't flow any oil.

I know on my VTR, after I have changed the oil and before the fork is reinstalled in the bike, if I screw the rebound needle fully closed then compress the fork, it barely moves back from compressed until I back the needle out. Your compression adjuster should be pretty similar.

I presume Traxxion provides a baseline setting in terms of "number of clicks" or "turns" out from fully closed?

[swimmer]

Their instructions are to back the dampner out all the way and then turn in 3 full turns before installing cap.

[Baileyrock]

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Those sag numbers aren't real helpful w/o Free sag numbers as well. Comparing the two (rider & free sag) tells you if you have the correct spring rates or not.

Achieving any rider sag numbers alone is basically meaningless to proper spring rates.

[Terry]

Their instructions are to back the dampner out all the way and then turn in 3 full turns before installing cap.

Sounds about right, Swimmer. That would give you 3 full turns of adjustment back out from full in. If you set the cap that way, screw the cap on to the damper rod till the needle lightly bottoms, back off the needle a turn and then tighten the locknut, I'd say you'd be good to go.

[swimmer]

Their instructions are to back the dampner out all the way and then turn in 3 full turns before installing cap.

Sounds about right, Swimmer. That would give you 3 full turns of adjustment back out from full in. If you set the cap that way, screw the cap on to the damper rod till the needle lightly bottoms, back off the needle a turn and then tighten the locknut, I'd say you'd be good to go.

That's basically what I did out of intuition. Though I still think think it is not a precise routine and I feel like I don't have enough adjustment to reduce compression dampning. I have the screw all the way out now. The ride is certainly better than stock, its just not as nice as I was hoping. I also wonder if, like I said in my earlier post, they gave me too stiff a spring.

The Ohlins rear on the other hand performs as I would have expected.

[Terry]

If you've got the compression screw backed right out and want less compression damping, then you've got two options. The easier one would be to change the fork oil to a lighter grade than you've used (e.g. if you used 10W, change it to 5W). That will also affect the rebound damping so you'd probably need to screw that adjuster in a little.

The harder (but better) option would be to change the shims in the compression valve stack.

[weven]

There is nil, none, no compression adjustment. (VFR1200F) the screw all the way out means nil rebound damping.

As I state here....... read it.......http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/81771-a-suspension-tale/

Do not fall into the fork oil trap as I did, necessitating removing and draining the forks twice.

The old saying oils aint oils.

Know what fork oil you have in the forks at the moment then find the viscosity here https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/

The difference with lighter oil is truly a surprise.

[Terry]

I took from Swimmer's post that the Traxxion cartridges that he has are fitted with a rebound adjuster on one side and compression adjuster on the other side.

"My rebound side went on what I considered normal but the compression cap seemed like it was pressing down on the metering rod as I was tightening everything."

I agree that on the standard VFR there is no external compression adjustment, so if you want it lighter then a lighter viscosity oil or revised shim stack/valve body are needed.

[alleyoop]

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Those sag numbers aren't real helpful w/o Free sag numbers as well. Comparing the two (rider & free sag) tells you if you have the correct spring rates or not.

Achieving any rider sag numbers alone is basically meaningless to proper spring rates.

I wouldn't say that either alone is meaningless. But I agree that both are important but posted only the front/rear rider sag to be expedient. Though if you read further you would see that I listed the static rear sag as well.

My rear static sag is 10mm at two clicks preload, pretty much the minimum recommended by Ohlins, K-Tech, or Traxxion. But again I chose the stiffer 1085 spring (so we can see the 1200 which would have been way to stiff).

I don't understand what you mean by "comparing" the static and rider sag. Are there some ratio and proportion calculations I've never heard of?

Okay I've installed the new front and rear suspension.

Traxxion AK-20 front.

Ohlins VFR1200 shock rear.

Front spring is 1.15. Rear is 1085 (that's one step stiffer than Ohlins stock spring--1028--on their shock for the VFR1200)

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Before I was getting about 50mm rear with the stock shock set with about half of its preload--too soft.

With the new 1085 spring, I could only get 10mm static sag on the rear with preload almost all the way out (TWO CLICKS). So the stock Ohlins spring--1028--probably would have worked fine but the step up to 1085 gives me substantial preload remaining to add passenger and cargo.

If you weight 185lb, don't let anyone tell you to fit a 1200lb spring!

Hope that helps.

I’ve also got a traxxion front ohlins rear set up.

Traxxion gave me a 1.1kg spring. I am maybe 160lbs with gear. I’ve always felt it was too heavy. They had me 8 turns in on preload which is almost all the way in. That seemed excessive as well. I am not running any of the settings they gave me.

Did you do your traxxion install yourself? If so, when you were threading on your fork caps onto the piston rods after adjusting your screw adjusters as indicated in the instructions, did both caps bottom onto the rods without the feeling you were binding/compressing the metering rod? My rebound side went on what I considered normal but the compression cap seemed like it was pressing down on the metering rod as I was tightening everything. This would seem to have the effect of creating a preset of additional compression, like you have the compression adjusting screw turned in even if its backed out all the way. If you don’t bottom the cap it would seem like you have an undefined starting point for your compression adjustment.

Does this question makes sense? I'd really like to hear from someone else on this as traxxion didn't seem to care.

I've changed fork springs. But anything beyond that (I got the full cartridge replacement), I let the experts handle. I shipped them off in a rifle case, and they came back perfect.

Traxxion has always nailed the spring rate for me. Surprised they were apathetic regarding your settings.

If I were you, I would give send them the forks and let them do a once over. If there's something you missed during the installl, they will catch and correct it. Money well spent. And they can change your spring rate, too, if that's what you need. Have you measured the sag? That's the only quantifiable way to really know if the spring rate is correct.

I presume Traxxion provides a baseline setting in terms of "number of clicks" or "turns" out from fully closed?

Yes, on mine it's six out.

[Baileyrock]

My rider sag numbers with 185lb (naked) rider with all gear on (but no cargo or passenger) are currently

41mm front (two rings showing)

31mm rear (two clicks of preload)

Good numbers.

Those sag numbers aren't real helpful w/o Free sag numbers as well. Comparing the two (rider & free sag) tells you if you have the correct spring rates or not.

Achieving any rider sag numbers alone is basically meaningless to proper spring rates.

I wouldn't say that either alone is meaningless. But I agree that both are important but posted only the front/rear rider sag to be expedient. Though if you read further you would see that I listed the static rear sag as well.

My rear static sag is 10mm at two clicks preload, pretty much the minimum recommended by Ohlins, K-Tech, or Traxxion. But again I chose the stiffer 1085 spring (so we can see the 1200 which would have been way to stiff).

I don't understand what you mean by "comparing" the static and rider sag. Are there some ratio and proportion calculations I've never heard of?

I presume Traxxion provides a baseline setting in terms of "number of clicks" or "turns" out from fully closed?

Yes, on mine it's six out.

Howdy ao,

If your rear static/free sag is 10mm and rider sag is 31mm then yes you have pretty good numbers and your spring is pretty damn close or spot on. These are pretty desirable street number, track numbers would be a little tighter say 5-8mm free & 25mm rider.(rear)

What I mean by comparing the two is that like with your numbers having both static & rider sag numbers in a desirable range it tells you that your spring rate is indeed correct or off. Without looking at both numbers you don't have enough data to know what direction to go with spring rates.

You could crank in enough pre-load into a spring to achieve lets say 35mm of rider sag, but if you have zero free sag then the spring is too soft. That is what I mean about comparing them.

BR