cds Posted May 3, 2023 Share Posted May 3, 2023 I was given a totaled (bent fork, working motor) 2003 vfr800 ABS around 6 years ago and it's sat since but I've started to rebuild it all. One of the first things I did was see if the engine would crank at all and to my surprise it started right up on starting fluid. Since then I've replaced the tank with a clean one and the fuel pump with one I verified works. I also verified that the injectors were not clogged and sprayed correctly. The bike no longer starts after doing the above and having removed the fairings (and subsequently all of the headlights, taillights, signals). The fuel pump is only getting 5v and isn't priming (because of that I assume), there is no signal to the ignition coils, and the FI light stays constantly on when the FCR and ESR are connected. I tested the resistance of the coils and it didn't give what was expected, so I tested the signal with a probe light and got nothing. On crank, no signal is in the connector but it has solid grounding and solid 12v. I've looked through countless posts on related issues with no luck and I'm hitting a wall. It's possible it could be a faulty ECM because when the bike was totaled it fell/slid onto the right side but there is no visible damage on the ECM or connectors and all of the ECM connections and pins are clean and tight. Is it a bad ECM and is there any good way to test that? Is it a simple problem of having all of the lights disconnected? Something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer bmart Posted May 3, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 3, 2023 Did you check simple things like fuses, connections, and switches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 3, 2023 Author Share Posted May 3, 2023 18 minutes ago, bmart said: Did you check simple things like fuses, connections, and switches? Everything tells me it should've ran. Fuses were all good, connections are all solid, kill switch was set to run, in neutral, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 3, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 3, 2023 Fi light staying on is generally an indication of power loss to the ECM. Grab your wiring diagram and voltmeter. Clip the black lead of your voltmeter to the battery negative. Starting at the Battery start probing for 12v at the Main Fuse B 30amp keep following this up the the Blue connector left side of bike. Make sure this voltage is at the ESR. Turn On Ignition make sure this voltage transfers to the FCR follow the Black/White wire grom the ESR to where if feeds the ECM make sure you are seeing the 12v Somewhere along this line from Battery to ECM you may be loosing this 12v hopefully following it from battery to ECM you might pick up a bad connection or broken wire etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 3, 2023 Author Share Posted May 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Grum said: Somewhere along this line from Battery to ECM you may be loosing this 12v hopefully following it from battery to ECM you might pick up a bad connection or broken wire etc. Voltage was constant 12 through all connections but I did see that in the blue connector, green went in one side but not out the other. Everything on the circuit still passed continuity so I doubt it's a grounding issue but could that have caused any of the issues? I also rechecked the voltage to the fuel pump connector and while cranking it now only gives 100 mV but that could've been caused by the battery because I'm pretty sure that one isn't healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 1 hour ago, cds said: I also rechecked the voltage to the fuel pump connector and while cranking it now only gives 100 mV but that could've been caused by the battery because I'm pretty sure that one isn't healthy I assumed you would have had a healthy battery! Make sure you are working with a healthy fully charged battery with clean and tight battery terminals. - What voltages are you seeing on the Black/White wires at the FCR Ignition to On? - What voltage do you read at the Brown wire (Not the Brown/Black) of the FCR during the 2-3sec fuel prime at switch on? - Do you hear the FCR click on then off during switch on and fuel prime time of 2-3secs? Have a read of this recall document, might explain why that earth wire is missing on the other side of the blue connector. 6e9de7bb-181a-4611-84ce-509ddd820842_2002-2005_vfr800_safety_recall_wire_harness_replacement.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 4, 2023 Author Share Posted May 4, 2023 33 minutes ago, Grum said: I assumed you would have had a healthy battery! What voltages are you seeing on the Black/White wires at the FCR Ignition to On? What voltage do you read at the Brown wire (Not the Brown/Black) of the FCR during the 2-3sec fuel prime at switch on? 6e9de7bb-181a-4611-84ce-509ddd820842_2002-2005_vfr800_safety_recall_wire_harness_replacement.pdf 2.78 MB · 1 download Let me correct myself... the battery was healthy and fully charged, it's just decently old. As for the voltages at the FCR I'll be able to test those tomorrow but I forgot to mention the fuel pump does pump when direct power is applied, but it doesn't prime on its own with the ignition on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 3 hours ago, cds said: As for the voltages at the FCR I'll be able to test those tomorrow but I forgot to mention the fuel pump does pump when direct power is applied, but it doesn't prime on its own with the ignition on. Ok well, at least you know the FP is ok. Verify the voltages mentiond at the FCR and that you do or don't hear the FCR energize for 2-3 secs at switch on. Note - there will be nothing at the FCR Unless the ESR has firstly energized. The BAS Bank Angle Sensor provides the ground for the coil of the ESR. So if the BAS isn't connected or not operational = dead engine and Fi light On. The ECM provides a controlling Ground to the FCR via the Brown/Black wire. It energizes the relay at switch on for prime and during cranking. You could also verify the FP Green Ground wire is properly bonded back to the battery Negative terminal = zero ohms continuity. Note - "A decently old battery" may not be too healthy! Battery terminal voltage is not a good indication of battery capacity, its ability to deliver lots of amps! Any doubts, charge it and have it load tested at any good automotive parts store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 11 hours ago, cds said: I tested the resistance of the coils and it didn't give what was expected, so I tested the signal with a probe light and got nothing. On crank, no signal is in the connector but it has solid grounding and solid 12v. Something got re-connected wrong when you took everything apart, replaced fuel pump and put it back together. For coils, no grounds on coils. Should never ever be connected to ground! If so, something may have blown up 1st time you turned key ON. Do these tests: 1. unplug all coil connectors 2. key ON, start/stop = RUN 3. measure for voltage on both terminals of each harness-side coil-connector. 4. report all 8 measurements here This is related to power for FP as well. So bad connections to coil will definitely affect both engine-stop relay and FCR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 3 hours ago, cds said: I also rechecked the voltage to the fuel pump connector and while cranking it now only gives 100 mV but that could've been caused by the battery because I'm pretty sure that one isn't healthy. Definitely wiring problem. Voltage should be full battery-power or 0v. Something's very, very wrong... We'll see results of Grum's and coils test and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 1 hour ago, DannoXYZ said: For coils, no grounds on coils. Should never ever be connected to ground! If so, something may have blown up 1st time you turned key ON Danno. 6gen has 3 wire COP's. Most definitely with a Ground, 12v Power and Trigger Pulse input from ECM. You might be thinking of a 5gen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 ah, sorry, thinking of old coils. Yes, these are the coils we're looking for.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefunkyg Posted May 4, 2023 Share Posted May 4, 2023 I also need help I have a vfr800 it was running fine the other day and while riding it started to hesitate and the cut out with the fi light on. It has melted the 30 amp fuse at the battery and fuel pump won't run. I replaced the 30 fuse but it keeps blowing the fuel pump fuse when I on swith the ignition on. Any ideas please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Captain 80s Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 8 minutes ago, bluefunkyg said: Any ideas please? Start a new thread for your issue please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 4, 2023 Author Share Posted May 4, 2023 20 hours ago, Grum said: - What voltages are you seeing on the Black/White wires at the FCR Ignition to On? - What voltage do you read at the Brown wire (Not the Brown/Black) of the FCR during the 2-3sec fuel prime at switch on? - Do you hear the FCR click on then off during switch on and fuel prime time of 2-3secs? 2.78 MB · 11 downloads FCR black/white wires both show 12v with ignition on. Solid brown wire shows 0v at the relay, connector, and pump while priming. There's no audible/tactile response from the FCR when the ignition is turned on or when the kill switch is flipped back and forth. 19 hours ago, Grum said: Note - there will be nothing at the FCR Unless the ESR has firstly energized. The BAS Bank Angle Sensor provides the ground for the coil of the ESR. So if the BAS isn't connected or not operational = dead engine and Fi light On. The ECM provides a controlling Ground to the FCR via the Brown/Black wire. It energizes the relay at switch on for prime and during cranking. You could also verify the FP Green Ground wire is properly bonded back to the battery Negative terminal = zero ohms continuity. The BAS is connected and the ground is solid. I don't know for sure if it actually works but all the connections look ok. The FP green wire had a solid ground as well. I tested the voltages on the ESR, the black/white, black/pink, and black wires all had 12v and the red/yellow wire was ending up with .4v and after sitting for a bit with the ignition on I realized the ESR was actually warm to the touch. I removed the relay and it still read .3v at the ESR connector and the BAS connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 4, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2023 Ok so you've establish that... - The ESR is working ok because it is transferring 12v to the FCR. BAS is also Ok. - The FCR is not working because it appears the ECM is not working and not sending the Ground signal on the Brown/Black wire to energize it. You could swap the FCR with a known good headlight Relay just to be sure. - The Fi light remaining fully On means a power or fault situation with the ECM. - Did you mention you can crank the bike but won't start? - Is the Neutral light working? - Is the Sidestand Down? Just incase the ECM has and active diagnostic fault it needs the SS to be down to display it. Check your Ignition Switch wires. Do you have a Pink wire at the Ignition Switch? Some bikes have this and it is an anti theft wire that will or will not enable the ECM. Check to see if you have this wire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 4, 2023 Author Share Posted May 4, 2023 30 minutes ago, Grum said: - The FCR is not working because it appears the ECM is not working and not sending the Ground signal on the Brown/Black wire to energize it. You could swap the FCR with a known good headlight Relay just to be sure. - Did you mention you can crank the bike but won't start? - Is the Neutral light working? - Is the Sidestand Down? Just incase the ECM has and active diagnostic fault it needs the SS to be down to display it. Check your Ignition Switch wires. Do you have a Pink wire at the Ignition Switch? Some bikes have this and it is an anti theft wire that will or will not enable the ECM. Check to see if you have this wire? I don't know for sure if ANY relays are working as intended aside from the ESR as you said. It does crank and the pistons do all move smoothly, the neutral light is on and the kickstand is down. Trying to shift it powered on or off doesn't engage any gears and it remains in neutral. The ignition was replaced but there is no pink wire, only black, black/white, red, and green. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2023 When was ignition-switch replaced? With OEM unit from authorised Honda dealer? Post photo of bottom of your original ignition-switch. USA bikes don't have HISS immobiliser, but it does have pink wire from ignition-switch to ECU. Look on your ECU for pink wire at A12 position on blk connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 5, 2023 Author Share Posted May 5, 2023 36 minutes ago, DannoXYZ said: When was ignition-switch replaced? Was it OEM unit from authorised Honda dealer? Post photo of bottom of your original ignition-switch. USA bikes don't have HISS immobiliser, but it does have pink wire from ignition-switch to ECU. Look on your ECU for pink wire at A12 position on blk connector. It was replaced because the key was lost and I highly doubt it was an OEM part. The ECM does have the pink wire in the black connector and the old ignition has the matching wire on the bottom of it. If the issue is as simple as that, would it be possible to take the new lock (which I have a key for) and put it in the old ignition that the bike will recognize? Old ignition New ignition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, cds said: It was replaced because the key was lost and I highly doubt it was an OEM part. The ECM does have the pink wire in the black connector and the old ignition has the matching wire on the bottom of it. If the issue is as simple as that, would it be possible to take the new lock (which I have a key for) and put it in the old ignition that the bike will recognize? Old ignition New ignition Ah ha Jackpot!!!!!. You absolutely need to get it back to original. Without the function of the Pink Wire and that Zener Diode your ECM is DEAD! Bit of a shame you didn't mention changing the Ignition Switch base earlier. If the ECM sees 0v OR 12v on this Pink wire It Will NOT Enable. It MUST see 9v from the Zener Diode to Enable. You've fitted the wrong switch base! Doesn't seem to represent the original switch configuration in any way!!!!! Where is your main power in? Where has the Blue power wire for your cooling fan gone? And of course, no Pink wire and Zener diode! Get this sorted and you might...... have a running engine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2023 So did original ignition run bike before keys were lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 5, 2023 Author Share Posted May 5, 2023 18 hours ago, Grum said: Ah ha Jackpot!!!!!. Get this sorted and you might...... have a running engine! (Already replied, don't think it went through) Put the original ignition's wiring plate on and it instantly turned over on cranking, fuel pump primed, no FI light. I've been chasing a problem that was right under my nose but I definitely needed help from someone with much more experience! 13 hours ago, DannoXYZ said: So did original ignition run bike before keys were lost? I can only assume so, as the reason it ran when I first started working on it was because it had the original wiring plate and I had just removed the lock to test it manually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2023 Awesome, good job! To verify, can you measure voltage on that pink-wire at blk ECU connector? Just want to check to see what exact voltage is that it's expecting. Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cds Posted May 5, 2023 Author Share Posted May 5, 2023 51 minutes ago, DannoXYZ said: Awesome, good job! To verify, can you measure voltage on that pink-wire at blk ECU connector? Just want to check to see what exact voltage is that it's expecting. Thx I measured it when I did it about 2 hours ago and it was giving 9.3v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted May 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, cds said: I measured it when I did it about 2 hours ago and it was giving 9.3v Great, thanks! 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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