Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 If anyone would like to toss out some fact and/or theory about putting COP's to use on a 4th gen, I'd love to hear it. Been wanting to do this for quite a while! The 4th gen has 4 individual coils, so it stands to reason that if I get COP's that have the same resistance as my existing coils, and have a 2-wire setup, that it will work as stock? Sometimes I'm just wrong consistently. Ignore everything below here. If your existing coil resistances are 3.2 ohm, you'll need to find 3.2 ohm COP units unless we work out if a ballast resistor solution will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 25, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'm thinking you may have to run the coils in series like those guys did with the ZXR, you would then only need to use two coil drivers, and run it as a wasted spark system. Just make sure you get the correct coils paired up! I don't think the ECU/CDI in these bikes are smart enough to know you're not using two of the coil drivers, could be wrong though. That being said, I think I remember reading somewhere that the 5th gen had individual cylinder timing, maybe it was fuel trim...can't remember. Ignore this - read the posts further on. Wasted spark with two coils in series when the ECU expects there to be four individual coils could be ugly. You would need to have the two coils charged by two separate 12 volt feeds and fire whenever either of those feeds is cut. I'm sure this could be done with a fancy diode arrangement.. But at that point, aren't we getting very complex for the sake of not much in return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Why not run two separate 12v feeds and then have the ground side of the paired coils grounded by a single driver? The ecu will think its still firing a single 3.2 ohm coil, it shouldn't care if the other driver is controlling nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 If anyone would like to toss out some fact and/or theory about putting COP's to use on a 4th gen, I'd love to hear it. Been wanting to do this for quite a while! The 4th gen has 4 individual coils, so it stands to reason that if I get COP's that have the same resistance as my existing coils, and have a 2-wire setup, that it will work as stock? If your existing coil resistances are 3.2 ohm, you'll need to find 3.2 ohm COP units unless we work out if a ballast resistor solution will work. Could this be as simple as splicing a 1.6 ohm resistor on the hot wire to the 1.6ohm COP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 If anyone would like to toss out some fact and/or theory about putting COP's to use on a 4th gen, I'd love to hear it. Been wanting to do this for quite a while! The 4th gen has 4 individual coils, so it stands to reason that if I get COP's that have the same resistance as my existing coils, and have a 2-wire setup, that it will work as stock? If your existing coil resistances are 3.2 ohm, you'll need to find 3.2 ohm COP units unless we work out if a ballast resistor solution will work. Could this be as simple as splicing a 1.6 ohm resistor on the hot wire to the 1.6ohm COP? That's what I don't know yet. Right now I think I know enough to get into trouble. What I need to freakin' do is get out to my CBR, hook up the oscilloscope to a coil and confirm what the darn volts are. If it's 6 volt it will confirm what I've said so far and we can move on to talking about resistors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I've used these coils in many different applications with stand alone engine management, its always 12v on one side, ground trigger on the other. The only time I've seen a ballast resistor used on an ignition system is with older vehicles with a points system. I have yet to see a modern coil pack use anything less than a 12v feed. You want to have the highest possible primary voltage so it can be stepped up to a high secondary voltage, 6 volts on the primary side just ain't gonna cut it with a modern high compression, high rpm motorcycle engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 (edited) Got home about 45 minutes ago. I'm too pooped to do anything tonight. I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks for all the help guys. Even if this doesn't work, at least we'll know. I emailed Scott over at Scott's Motorcycle Service on what year models and if you can test the resistance for me. Haven't head back yet. He sales a kit for the RC51 guys. From what I've read is that they're just cbr 1000 coils. http://www.store.scottsms.com/searchquick-submit.sc?keywords=coil RC51's use the same type green bulky coils as the 5th gens and a lot of older bikes. So they should be the same ohms as mine. I got on some of their forums and they just plug em in and go. Saw some replies saying they've been running them for years with no problems. I don't know. The bike felt sluggish to me. Works gonna keep me busy and I'm heading out of town this weekend so my father can celebrate my birthday. I'll do my best to fit some time in this week. Edited July 26, 2011 by Ranger77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I've used these coils in many different applications with stand alone engine management, its always 12v on one side, ground trigger on the other. The only time I've seen a ballast resistor used on an ignition system is with older vehicles with a points system. I have yet to see a modern coil pack use anything less than a 12v feed. You want to have the highest possible primary voltage so it can be stepped up to a high secondary voltage, 6 volts on the primary side just ain't gonna cut it with a modern high compression, high rpm motorcycle engine. Kostritzer is right. I just hooked up the oscilloscope to my CBR1000RR and confirmed that the coils are indeed getting a 12 volt feed. They are also most definitely 1.6 ohm coils. So, take everything I said about 6 volts and kick it in the nuts. The coils are 12 volts, so there is no danger of burning anything out. Since it's a ground trigger, it's also hard to say if there will be any problems with the coils pulling 7 amps rather than 3. At this point, it seems that I've been talking out of my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Just took a look at a wiring diagram for an 07 600RR. All four coils on that bike are powered by 12V directly to the ignition switch, with individual drivers for the ground side of each coil, basically the same way a 5th gen or even a 4th gen is wired up. The only difference in the ignition systems besides the coils themselves, would be the CDI or ECU. Maybe a 1.6 ohm resistor on the ground(ecu trigger) side of the coil would work? I wish my bike was a little closer to running condition so I could try it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Why not run two separate 12v feeds and then have the ground side of the paired coils grounded by a single driver? The ecu will think its still firing a single 3.2 ohm coil, it shouldn't care if the other driver is controlling nothing. Duhh...yeah of course you're right. It's a GROUND trigger not a positive trigger. Man I've really got my "muppet" hat on at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Kaldek. Your ass is a lot smarter than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 The best way to figure out if this is going to damage the CDI/ECU is to hook a lab scope up to a coil with the bike running and compare the ignition patterns between the two different coils setups. I actually ran a set of these coils on my Audi S4 a few years ago without even comparing the resistance values with the original coils, it ran great, but I sold the car shortly after the conversion so who knows how long it lasted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Maybe a 1.6 ohm resistor on the ground(ecu trigger) side of the coil would work? I'm actually starting to think that these coils need to be given the power they want, rather than trying to affect it by adding resistors into the circuit. It's all my fault - it was a stupid idea to talk about resistors in the first place because I knew enough to be an ass and not much else. So I guess the last question then is whether the current pulled by each coil will affect the ECU. And if not, then Ranger's problems with the bike being sluggish are something else altogether and I need to STFU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 The best way to figure out if this is going to damage the CDI/ECU is to hook a lab scope up to a coil with the bike running and compare the ignition patterns between the two different coils setups. If rangerscott is willing to buy one of the $60 pocket oscilloscopes like what I have, he could well do that. "Lab Scope" is an automotive term which generally means $$$$$. They're just oscilloscopes. It would probably also require a low amp current probe as the input to the oscilloscope, clamped over the coil wire for inductive pickup. I've just ordered one, and it's being shipped to Sebspeed's house right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I know I'm not worried about the spark plugs since I've decoded the 5th gen iridiums, 6th gen iridiums, and gsxr plugs and they're all 9 rating heat range. Pretty much just cosmetics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I know I'm not worried about the spark plugs since I've decoded the 5th gen iridiums, 6th gen iridiums, and gsxr plugs and they're all 9 rating heat range. Pretty much just cosmetics. Maybe describe the poor running problems again? You said it was sluggish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kostritzer Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 The best way to figure out if this is going to damage the CDI/ECU is to hook a lab scope up to a coil with the bike running and compare the ignition patterns between the two different coils setups. If rangerscott is willing to buy one of the $60 pocket oscilloscopes like what I have, he could well do that. "Lab Scope" is an automotive term which generally means $$$$$. They're just oscilloscopes. Thats true, you should be able to look at an ignition pattern with any oscilloscope, I'm just used to using the "lab scope" term since we have one here at work that I use on occasion. In reality, we really have no way of knowing if the ignition box can handle the extra current, we just have to assume it will eventually fail prematurely since it was designed for a lower current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Bike ran fine before the coil sticks. Just sluggish taking off from a stop and at low rpms (4k and climbing up to cruiseing rpms). Right when taking off the engine would bog and I'd have to give it more throttle. I'm going do another test ride and mount my camera to view the dash with both sets of coils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Bike ran fine before the coil sticks. Just sluggish taking off from a stop and at low rpms (4k and climbing up to cruiseing rpms). Right when taking off the engine would bog and I'd have to give it more throttle. I'm going do another test ride and mount my camera to view the dash with both sets of coils. And you're sure that's not caused by the 6th-gen throttle bodies yeah? I didn't see how long you had been riding around with the 6th-gen throttle assembly before trying the coils. As they say - change ONE thing, then test it. When you're 100% convinced it's working, then (and only then) change something else. Not that I listen to my own advice though; no, I'm as guilty of this as anyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Naw. The 6th gen t-body is working fine. Just the starter valves are needing to be set. I felt it. Let me test both and make an executive decision on whether I'm sane or insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Naw. The 6th gen t-body is working fine. Just the starter valves are needing to be set. I felt it. Let me test both and make an executive decision on whether I'm sane or insane. Cool. About the only thing we haven't discussed is the dwell time for the coils, and whether the ones you're using work best with a much different dwell time than what the ECU is providing. Less resistance would affect dwell time I guess. Maybe it's too much and you're overcharging the coils? Again, I could be talking out my rear-end here. Watching the oscilloscope, you can see that power is rapidly switched on and off to the coil. The time that the coil spends "on" is the dwell time and if it's too short the coil won't charge up enough. Too long and it builds up too much. Here's a great article on dwell time calibration. In short, they appear to say you can't just dump any coil on and hope for the best. They say on that page that if the dwell map is pre-computed at the factory and does not measure the amps, then you're going to cook something in short order. NEVER substitute the coil for another type on a mapped system. The ECU will not know you have done this and will still turn the coil on for a certain time, if your new coil charges quicker (lower inductance) then the coil or ECU will be damaged. If a slower charging coil is fitted (higher inductance) you will get a poor spark. Alternatively, the ECU could be "closed loop" in that it monitors the coil current and dynamically adjusts the dwell time so that the coil tops out at 7 amps. I guess this means that your system on the VFR was always 7 amps, but used a longer dwell time to get there since the inductance/resistance was higher. So, if the 5th-gen VFR uses mapped dwell, you're hosed. If it uses closed-loop dwell control, apparently you should be alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I'll keep my eye out on some cbr coils at a good price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I'll keep my eye out on some cbr coils at a good price. CBR coils are also 1.6 ohm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Ranger77 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 I know but they might have different dwell times as you stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted July 26, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2011 Naw. The 6th gen t-body is working fine. Just the starter valves are needing to be set. I felt it. Let me test both and make an executive decision on whether I'm sane or insane. What's the classic saying? -- "There's a fine line between genius and insanity." Kudos to you and Kaldek , Kostritzer too --- - impressive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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