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Starter solenoid for 6th gen stuck energized


ShipFixer
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27 minutes ago, ShipFixer said:

Here's the thing though, if the 30 amp fuse and all three spade connectors are out, and I still have power going to the starter?  It was going until I got the battery out (again), and when I was jostling everything trying to get to the spare fuse.  It's possible it completely failed on the inside...but twice?

Well if you have a situation where your relay main contacts have welded themselves in the closed state then there may be a short within the starter motor, you would have to be drawing a very excessive current for this to happen, potentially melting your main cables and potentially destroying your battery. You would expect this to happen when you would have tried a normal start, not just a random thing.

 

Your starter suddenly jumping into life causing your bike fall over, when you were in gear and Sidestand down. Is the most baffling one for me!

 

Sorry to say it, but I've never heard of your situation before and can't fathom that standard OEM wiring would ever cause an issue like this.!!!!

 

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Here's stock diagram. Trace each and every single wire you have and compare to diagram.

 

FullSizeRender.jpg

For example:

 

trace +positive battery cable

1.  end bolts to battery. Find that cable end.

2. follow cable to other end

3. does it attach to starter-solenoid B+ terminal?

 

trace ALL other cables in starter-circuit this way. Note ANY anomallies that's not as shown in diagram. Then remove ALL non-stock wiring.

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3 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

First clue, in between meetings:

3DF94C3C-7911-43B4-B10A-A290FBC84DA2.jpeg

Is that original solenoid, or replacement one?
In either case, it's just symptoms and not cause of problem itself.

 

To get useful data for diagnostics, disconnect solenoid M-terminal, key ON:

 

1. check neutral indicator, does it turn OFF when you shift out of neutral?

2. measure output of start-button. Verify it turns OFF when you let up button.

3. measure trigger-input to solenoid. Verify it has NO voltage when you let up start-button.

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The one I removed last night.  Not the previous one that I also thought failed, I'm looking for it next though.  Concur it's not the root cause...I think the last phase of whatever happened last night might have been the relay fusing again.  I'm just tinkering with what I can while I'm dialed into a meeting...

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Also trace cable from starter-solenoid M-terminal to starter. Make sure insulation isn't frayed and exposing inner conductor. 

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Also meter the relay fuse connections. You should have zero ohms from the main B terminal to one side of the fuse terminal, and the other fuse terminal must Only go to one of the spade terminals, there must not be any connection between the fuse terminals and the two relay coil spade connectors.

Just wondering are you sure your replacement relay is the correct one for the bike? Correct current rating?

 

Your control wiring for the relay coil both power 12v Yellow/Red wire and ground side Green/Red wire Must be thoroughly checked out to match the drawing.

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38 minutes ago, Grum said:

Also meter the relay the fuse connections. You should have zero ohms from the main B terminal to one side of the fuse terminal, and the other fuse terminal must Only go to one of the spade terminals, there must not be any connection between the fuse terminals and the two relay coil spade connectors.

Just wondering are you sure your replacement relay is the correct one for the bike? Correct current rating?

 

Your control wiring for the relay coil both power 12v Yellow/Red wire and ground side Green/Red wire Must be thoroughly checked out to match the drawing.

I have zero ohms from one of the fuse terminals to both the motor and battery terminals (since they're stuck).  I have continuity from the other fuse terminal to two of the spade terminals, the lower two, away from the fuse block and power terminals.  I only had three spade connectors in and one of those two was not in use though (the right, lower one).

 

After going through two relays...I couldn't say I was 100% about it even if I was 🙃 It's possible that it's part of the problem twice over. 

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53 minutes ago, DannoXYZ said:

Also trace cable from starter-solenoid M-terminal to starter. Make sure insulation isn't frayed and exposing inner conductor. 

This is high on my list of things to do!  It's not exposed right around the top end at the solenoid but I'm curious what's going on past that.

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19 minutes ago, ShipFixer said:

I have zero ohms from one of the fuse terminals to both the motor and battery terminals (since they're stuck).  I have continuity from the other fuse terminal to two of the spade terminals, the lower two, away from the fuse block and power terminals.  I only had three spade connectors in and one of those two was not in use though (the right, lower one).

 

After going through two relays...I couldn't say I was 100% about it even if I was 🙃 It's possible that it's part of the problem twice over. 

Ah yes forgot to mention the fuse feeds two of the spades but you are only using one.

Well the good news is that it wasn't a short from the fuse across to the relay coil. 

You can now concentrate on the ground and power wires mentioned that energize the relay. Along with a few simple checks for shorts on your motor cables.

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Ok just getting into it.  One of the repairs the PO made is he replaced the inline 30A fuse in the red cable off the battery (#12 in the parts diagram).  When I squeeze some of that I can break the connection between the terminal and the fuse socket.   It doesn’t have an obvious clip to connect to the harness anymore, it’s connected to a red/white line.  
 

What’s it supposed to look like?  Found a photo of one on google with a clip.  I assume this is all other power off the bike and it’s possibly why I dropped everything.

 

BTW...the solenoid sticking “on” again was the last gasp, before that the bike died (lights off, etc) several times in ten minutes while I was trying to get home.  Was able to start it each time.

 

Somewhat happy news, my battery is at 11.4V after cooling down in my garage all night and seems to be happy on my charger.

F8304D1A-4515-4F6C-B3F0-E9247CD3B771.jpeg

31B1C248-E2F1-4B81-B24F-89BDD898FB48.jpeg

B3D57E39-320C-4130-9614-7729AFDD2203.jpeg

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R/w is where he spliced it in, I assume that was a clip into the main harness there?  Going back up stairs to look at the service manual diagrams in a bit.


I’m cutting away the tape around the three connectors into the control side of the solenoid next.  What’s that supposed to look like?  Three free clips like this, or was it a clip at some point?

70B7DF75-791C-4FA7-AFA3-C29C3F377409.jpeg

B637AD84-8DCD-46A0-BD85-FC89D226F3AF.jpeg

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Another thing of interest...the 30A in both relays got hot but didn’t break...

 

Maybe two cheap relays in a row?  I got mine from Amazon and it’s pretty much identical to what was in there before from the previous owner.  But it had lots of reviews saying it worked fine, and I was pretty sure this was a freak thing.

3EB86D13-557A-4D42-8D52-D28564BBB422.jpeg

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On 12/9/2020 at 8:45 PM, ShipFixer said:

Another thing of interest...the 30A in both relays got hot but didn’t break...

 

Maybe two cheap relays in a row?  I got mine from Amazon and it’s pretty much identical to what was in there before from the previous owner.  But it had lots of reviews saying it worked fine, and I was pretty sure this was a freak thing.

3EB86D13-557A-4D42-8D52-D28564BBB422.jpeg

This one is easiest to deal with. Ignore and fuhget about it. Those fuses were melted due to heat from starter-solenoid running full-time. They didn't actually blow from too much current as you can see the fusible-link inside is still intact. Once you fix problem of starter-solenoid running full-time, fuses will be OK.

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Ok, so the Main Fuse A in the Starter Relay you are now saying (and your picture proves it) that this fuse was not blowing! This helps because we were concerned for excess current somehow being drawn blowing the fuse!!! Which is now not the case.

 

So the Main Fuse A is feeding your Ignition Switch then all the services on your bike EXCEPT the EFI stuff. Your EFI is powered from the other Main Fuse B also 30amp. this power goes unswitched directly to the ESR (engine stop relay). Fuse B is also the R/R's output path to your battery.

 

Obviously the previous owner has had the common burn up of the red wire coming from Main Fuse A and rather than refitting the spades back into a proper plug he has left these as floating insulated spade connectors. You better make sure they plug into the correct spot on the Starter Relay. The Red wire must go to one of the two available terminals connecting to Main Fuse A. The other two wires are for the relay coil.

 

Main Fuse B, separate from the Starter Relay is known for overheating and causing EFI issues. Just make sure its wiring and fuse are ok with no sign of heat stress along with the Red/White wire joiner. Any issues with this fuse and its wiring will definitely kill your bike!

 

So back to your main issue, being the latching or uncontrolled starter relay operation, which appears to be not governed by the safety logic. So again the Yellow/Red and Green/Red wires and switches involved all need to be checked.

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2 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

Ok just getting into it.  One of the repairs the PO made is he replaced the inline 30A fuse in the red cable off the battery (#12 in the parts diagram).  When I squeeze some of that I can break the connection between the terminal and the fuse socket.   It doesn’t have an obvious clip to connect to the harness anymore, it’s connected to a red/white line.  

F8304D1A-4515-4F6C-B3F0-E9247CD3B771.jpeg

PO did piss-poor "repair" if you can break electrical connection by squeezing wires! Yes, there's supposed to be connector after 30a fuse-B to go to R/W wire which goes to RR. So most likely your battery wasn't get charged properly in addition to causing dropouts in power to your ECU, injectors and ignition coils. This connection seems very suspect. Cut off heatshrink-wrap and let's see what it looks like. Also remove wrap around other side of fuse where it attached to R/W wire.
 

image.thumb.png.80e618647faabeb52d9eb1461e37775d.png

 

Also remove all this crap electrical tape and let's see what's underneath and how wires are joined. There may be short underneath, which may be what's activating starter-solenoid full-time. Whenever I see this kind of work, I always want to track down PO and break their kneecaps!

 

Edited by DannoXYZ
edited to correct symptoms
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Ok, how about this one.  Red/white is the charging line from the regulator rectifier.  The other thing I've changed recently is a new MOSFET RR.  Maybe I did that wrong (although I don't see how) and that plus the charging line intermittently breaking is bad.  And since I have unfortunate recent experience...the last time, the battery ran the starter for quite a while before I got it pulled out.  This time, it didn't last very long.  It stopped (bike was on the ground, nothing to stop the rear wheel from turning) well before I got the battery out.  

 

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Just now, DannoXYZ said:

PO did piss-poor "repair" if you can break electrical connection by squeezing wires! Yes, there's supposed to be connector after 30a fuse to go to R/W wire which goes to RR. So most likely your battery wasn't get charged properly in addition to running starter-solenoid & starter full time. This connection seems very suspect. Cut off heatshrink-wrap and let's see what it looks like.
 

image.thumb.png.993f8647c546c594060518d967dc54b5.png

Can't wait to see what's next...ugh.

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Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

5DFA44D9-4626-477C-8FAC-8A0A080AA338.jpeg

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13 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

5DFA44D9-4626-477C-8FAC-8A0A080AA338.jpeg

No, it's very bad soldering job. It may look and feel solid, but it's what's known as "cold solder joint". There's lack of adhesion and penetration due to not cleaning original wiring (you can see corroded surface). And the folding-over of wiring tends to cause that U-turn to break over time. You can see some of it already starting to break on r/w wire.

 

You'll want to snip those joints off and re-do using proper Western-Union/Lineman's splice. Can skip pre-tinning step to make it easier to wrap. Be sure to slide heat-shrink tubing over before joining.

 

 

Remember, there never seems to be enough time to do it right 1st-time around, but there's always time to do it AGAIN! Often on side of road in total darkness and rain!

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15 minutes ago, ShipFixer said:

Less exciting than I hoped.  I may have just not held the probes steady last time.  The solder under the shrink wrap is pretty solid.  
 

But I’ll check continuity from the RR tomorrow for sure.

5DFA44D9-4626-477C-8FAC-8A0A080AA338.jpeg

Yeah  not the best solder joints I've seen. Did you flip the black cap and check the state of the fuse, that is wasn't heat stressed and making good contact.

I would be tidying up the soldering and sleeving the joins. You can then move on from Fuse B issues.

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16 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

I’m cutting away the tape around the three connectors into the control side of the solenoid next.  What’s that supposed to look like?  Three free clips like this, or was it a clip at some point?

 

B637AD84-8DCD-46A0-BD85-FC89D226F3AF.jpeg

Original harness had connector for solenoid control. You'll want to restore your wiring back to factory spec by replacing those individual connectors with proper starter-solenoid connector: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/

 

To install, cut back wiring from those individual spade connectors until you've removed all the bad splicing PO did; leaving only original 3 harness wires (G/R, Y/R and R).
image.png.b6c5f0f20b957d911dc2816bf2f35058.png

 

Then use proper in-line WesternUnion/lineman's splice to join new pigtail to harness. Combine the 2 red wires from pigtail together before connecting to harness's red wire. This will spread harness power-load across 2x spade-connectors instead of factory's 1 and prevent overheating.

 

  • G -> G/R on harness
  • B -> Y/R on harness
  • R+R -> R on harness

 

BTW - DO NOT EVER use butt-splice crimp connectors. They don't meet high-reliability criteria and will fail on you (I use 50-year time-frame). All wiring-splices should be tied, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. It's done this way in pro-motorsports, military and aerospace applications for performance, reliability and durability..

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I cut off the plastic sheath and use the butt connector, I then crimp/steak it/and solder, followed by the heat shrink tubing that I thoughtfully installed on the wires before starting the yab. Straight butt connectors or other types of electrical connectors that just rely on a crimp are garbage and are gona bite you in the butt down the road. There is a connection called (well I call it a "Bondini") you strip back a portion of the wire, separate the portion you stripped and then twist in your donor wire in the centre parted section, followed by solder shrink tubing and electrical tape for good measure. I love the clear shrink tubing I have kicking around, it used on aircraft and you can see the solder joint etc.

rr.jpg

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20 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Original harness had connector for solenoid control. You'll want to restore your wiring back to factory spec by replacing those individual connectors with proper starter-solenoid connector: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XC7KY6S/

 

To install, cut back wiring from those individual spade connectors until you've removed all the bad splicing PO did; leaving only original 3 harness wires (G/R, Y/R and R).
image.png.b6c5f0f20b957d911dc2816bf2f35058.png

 

Then use proper in-line WesternUnion/lineman's splice to join new pigtail to harness. Combine the 2 red wires from pigtail together before connecting to harness's red wire. This will spread harness power-load across 2x spade-connectors instead of factory's 1 and prevent overheating.

 

  • G -> G/R on harness
  • B -> Y/R on harness
  • R+R -> R on harness

 

BTW - DO NOT EVER use butt-splice crimp connectors. They don't meet high-reliability criteria and will fail on you (I use 50-year time-frame). All wiring-splices should be tied, soldered and adhesive heatshrink-wrapped. It's done this way in pro-motorsports, military and aerospace applications for performance, reliability and durability..

Thank you for the very clear directions!  After getting stalled and stranded I plan on making this thing as correct as possible!  I chose surfing tonight so haven't done much more.  I am also waiting on a better set of probes with alligator clips from Amazon for my multimeter (for some pandemic-related reason, Fry's closed the electrical-everything section, WTF?) so I can get more clarity on what may or may not be broken...too hard with only two hands, I am pretty sure I am chasing a couple intermittent connections but not 100% sure.  

 

I like what you are thinking about the ground in those wires and the solenoid connector (ordered!).  Is it possible if both the PO and I used cheaper relays that a short in there overheated the relay, welded the power side, etc. and that's where it's mostly contained?  And that plus breaks in the line to the battery let it discharge over time causing the stalling?  That's a story contained to the repairs I have spotted, so I am hoping that's the full story.

 

Still going to take everything apart and check of course.  I think I will just replace the whole harness where he spliced in the 30A fuse connection on the R/W line from the RR vs. trying to re-repair it.  

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