How Not To Install A Vtec Swingarm On A 5th Gen

[Veefer800Canuck]

So, after some limited brainstorming in another thread: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...=0&p=615737

I procured a lightly used VTEC swingarm off Rick (Safe-T) to experiment on. (thanks dude, your swingarm is in the mail)

First order of the day was to remove my swingarm, and yeah, I do lube my chain often!

Heave that heavy anchor to the side for a moment, and lever in the VTEC item:

Clearance to the exhaust system is good:

But the first snag that pops up is the left footrest assembly won't bolt fully against the frame. As they say on Mythbusters: "Well there's your problem right there":

Nevermind the bearing collar/spacers, I was swapping them around between each swingarm, but the important part is the cast end of the swingarm itself being about 8mm wider for the VTEC part. I could not fully bolt up the swingarm to the correct installed stack width because of the width of the VTEC part aft of the countershaft sprocket. It would need to be trimmed about 4mm per side and the seals reinstalled. That's doable though, so for now, I installed the 5th gen bearing collar and tried again:

Without modding the VTEC swingarm irreversably, you can see that it is binding slightly on the footpeg bracket and the engine case:

But close enough to do a trial boltup anyhow:

IT FITS! (well, sorta)

Moving right along, what about the chainline? Well, the measurement from the pillion footrest to the sprocket edge is within 0.5mm of original, and the difference is likely due to the binding discussed earlier and I feel it would be perfect if the swingarm were narrowed at the needle bearing side as shown before.

Well, what's next? Reconnect the shock linkage. Or not. This is the closest it would get, no matter what the swingarm angle was at:

Now why would that be me wonders? It seems that even though the forward "Y" shaped portion of the VTEC swingarm is 3/4" longer than the 5th gens, the linkage attachment point on the underside of the swingarm is actually 1/2" further FORWARD as measured from the swingarm pivot bolt.

Mocking up both swingarms off the bike with the pivot bolt fully inserted, measuring back to the shock linkage mount gave 6-3/4" for the 5th gen and 6-1/4" for the VTEC.

So, when trying to do up the linkage, it effectively moves the lower shock eye 1/2" further forward, whereupon it hits the dogbone, preventing boltup.

Now I COULD have possibly eliminated all of the washers atop my upper shock mount, and MAY have had just enough clearence to get the linkage done up, but look how close the shock is to the engine:

The coils are nearly rubbing on the engine cases.

And, in the end, according to my measurements without the shock hooked up, I would gain about 3/16" clearance for the exhaust system at full upwards travel, owing to the longer swingarm. Really, I was just moving the point of contact further rearward, and there wasn't enough of a gain in clearance to make it worthwhile.

I'd have to buy a longer chain, mine's too short even with the adjustment fully forward, and my hugger won't fit the VTEC swingarm because the profiling of the "Y" section aft of the shock is way different. On the 5th gen, it's flat all the way to the other side, and the VTEC arm has quite a raised profile, and the hugger won't sit right on it, nor will the lower mount fasten to the underside of the swingarm anymore.

So it's back to square one. :fing02:

[Veefer800Canuck]

While I was back at square one, I gave everything a well-deserved bath, and regreased all the bearings on everything.

5th gen swingarm back in place, cleaned and greased:

Took apart the rear hub, clean, regrease, reassemble with new blingy rear rotor and HH pads, bleed brakes, etc:

Had to eliminate the '98-'99 rear disc spacer (2mm), as the new rotor mounts the same as the '00-'01 models do, sans spacer:

[Veefer800Canuck]

Done and done-er:

[SEBSPEED]

[SLO97VFR]

What about tail riser plates? I am installing a set on my 4th gen for more under seat exhaust clearance.

[blkrabit]

Veefer, what brand of rear rotor is that? Looks great!

[Ryanme17]

You were doing this because the 6th gen swingarm is slightly longer and stiffer? Is it worth the effort?

I'm trying to reword that, but I know no matter how I put it, someone on here will be perverted...

[Veefer800Canuck]

You were doing this because the 6th gen swingarm is slightly longer and stiffer? Is it worth the effort?

I'm trying to reword that, but I know no matter how I put it, someone on here will be perverted...

:fing02:

Really, the reason was to obtain more clearance between the hugger and the underseat exhaust.

I figured that if the rear wheel were moved aft, which the VTEC swingarm most certainly would do, by 3/4", then the contact would lessen.

All the above is true, but one would have to

A: irreversably mod a VTEC swingarm, $250 minimum for the part.

B: buy a new hugger, another $250+ from Jolly Olde England

C: buy a new drive chain, maybe $150-$200 depending on quality. (guessing)

And D: ascertain that the shock spring coils would NEVER rub on the engine cases, EVER.

Close is OK, rubbing is not, and I had about 2-3mm clearance I figure.

All that to gain an additional 3/16" clearance? That's almost $250 per sixteenth of an inch! Lotta effort, little gain.

SO, in the future, I'll slow down for railroad tracks and not hammer over them, two-up. Much cheaper.

Veefer, what brand of rear rotor is that? Looks great!

Kagizume

http://www.kagizume.com/

Got it through Ebay from a vendor in the UK called Sandy Bike Spares.

http://myworld.ebay.com/sandybikespares

This is their website and they deal direct if you want to avoid Fleabay:

http://www.sandybikespares.co.uk/

What about tail riser plates? I am installing a set on my 4th gen for more under seat exhaust clearance.

I already have shimmed my upper shock mount to the point that the leading bolt mount for the chainguard is almost hitting the LH footpeg bracket at full swingarm droop.

Can't go much further than that.

That's exactly what I said. :biggrin:

[mello dude]

Well - nice try Veefer! :biggrin:

Ok another dumbass question. I have been itching to do a bike - 6th frame and 5th motor, but use the 5th swingarm. Think that would blow up as well?

MD

Edited June 8, 2009 by mello dude

[Veefer800Canuck]

Well - nice try Rob! :biggrin:

Ok another dumbass question. I have been itching to do a bike - 6th frame and 5th motor, but use the 5th swingarm. Think that would blow up as well?

MD

You're venturing into uncharted waters there Bucky. :fing02:

But, one of the blokes on the UK VFR site sucessfully installed a 5th gen motor into a 6th gen chassis.

markjharris is his username.

The thread is now missing off bikersoracle, I think they deleted it.

http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/show...d.php?p=1078367

[vfrcapn]

Really, the reason was to obtain more clearance between the hugger and the underseat exhaust.

I already have shimmed my upper shock mount to the point that the leading bolt mount for the chainguard is almost hitting the LH footpeg bracket at full swingarm droop.

Rob, how about putting in the shorter 4th gen dogbone, gains you a little over an inch rise in the tail, then remove some or all your shock shims to get it just where you want? I'm running the 4G db and 3 or 4mm of washers on top of the shock. 'course my centerstand is completely useless now.

[Veefer800Canuck]

Really, the reason was to obtain more clearance between the hugger and the underseat exhaust.

I already have shimmed my upper shock mount to the point that the leading bolt mount for the chainguard is almost hitting the LH footpeg bracket at full swingarm droop.

Rob, how about putting in the shorter 4th gen dogbone, gains you a little over an inch rise in the tail, then remove some or all your shock shims to get it just where you want? I'm running the 4G db and 3 or 4mm of washers on top of the shock. 'course my centerstand is completely useless now.

Thanks for the idea, things might not be dead just yet. :biggrin:

I've got a thread up on the UK VFR club for the fellow that put a geardrive motor into a VTEC chassis.

If I'm reading that right, then he's got a 6th gen swingarm bolted to a 5th gen motor. So I asked him what exactly he did to get it bolted up and what about the clearance of the spring coils to the engine cases.

http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/showthread.php?t=105527

[Veefer800Canuck]

More info: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=36323&st=0&p=437700entry437700

[Rice]

A valiant attempt made even better by the fact that you have stopped in time before reaching the point of no return.

I do have a question.

Assuming that you have succeeded, what is all the lengthening and raising going to do to handling?

To me, handling seems like a very easy thing to screw up and a hard thing to get right.

[dirtbag]

To me, handling seems like a very easy thing to screw up and a hard thing to get right.

you obviously haven't been affected by the needtotinker affliction. if the result was easy and guaranteed to work, why bother???

[Guest azboy]

Assuming that you have succeeded, what is all the lengthening and raising going to do to handling?

So it rides like a half squished cockroach with 3 legs, look at how pretty my exhaust is! :biggrin:

[Rice]

To me, handling seems like a very easy thing to screw up and a hard thing to get right.

you obviously haven't been affected by the needtotinker affliction. if the result was easy and guaranteed to work, why bother???

I have my moments... :fing02:

I mostly use this site to give me inspiration to tinker. :lurk:

Mostly because of my own failed attempts at sorting out handling issues (after very minor mods) and with respect to the tinkerer in question, I am genuinely wondering how the handling issues were going to be addressed given such extensive (by my meager standards) modification.

[Veefer800Canuck]

Thanks for the input.

I'm trying to fix my bike and get it back on the road, working with a broken foot, a separated shoulder and only so much money.

I HAPPEN to have a 6th gen swingarm about 6 feet from where my bike is parked, and if I can use it, the price is right.

Would anyone like to sell me a complete 5th gen, non-bent swingarm, NOT for $600USD which is about what they are going for on EBAY, and better yet, anyone want to come over and help the cripple wrench on the bike?

Or are you content to heckle and not suggest ways to help me make it work?

[Guest azboy]

Thanks for the input.

I'm trying to fix my bike and get it back on the road, working with a broken foot, a separated shoulder and only so much money.

I HAPPEN to have a 6th gen swingarm about 6 feet from where my bike is parked, and if I can use it, the price is right.

Would anyone like to sell me a complete 5th gen, non-bent swingarm, NOT for $600USD which is about what they are going for on EBAY, and better yet, anyone want to come over and help the cripple wrench on the bike?

Or are you content to heckle and not suggest ways to help me make it work?

I understand that neccessity is the mother of invention. Hopefully you didn't find my cockroach comment too offensive :fing02:

It is hard to tell from the photos, but would it be possible to clearance the footpeg bracket, as opposed to machining the swingarm?

The obstacle that I see as being the biggest to get passed is going to be the shock spring clearance. If you start shortening the dogbone the leverage ratio of the shorter link might cause problems with the rising rate. I don't know that as fact, but it would be the first thing I would think about and get confirmed.

Edited December 28, 2009 by azboy

[Veefer800Canuck]

It is hard to tell from the photos, but would it be possible to clearance the footpeg bracket, as opposed to machining the swingarm?

The obstacle that I see as being the biggest to get passed is going to be the shock spring clearance. If you start shortening the dogbone the leverage ratio of the shorter link might cause problems with the rising rate. I don't know that as fact, but it would be the first thing I would think about and get confirmed.

Now that's a suggestion, I had not thought about that. Will investigate.

As for the linkage ratio, I think that is set by the shape of the triangle and the relationship of the holes, one to another. If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear otherwise.

In post #13, there is a link to another thread where VFRcap'n is successfully using the 4th gen dogbone on his 5th gen to get more ground clearance.

[Guest azboy]

It is hard to tell from the photos, but would it be possible to clearance the footpeg bracket, as opposed to machining the swingarm?

The obstacle that I see as being the biggest to get passed is going to be the shock spring clearance. If you start shortening the dogbone the leverage ratio of the shorter link might cause problems with the rising rate. I don't know that as fact, but it would be the first thing I would think about and get confirmed.

Now that's a suggestion, I had not thought about that. Will investigate.

As for the linkage ratio, I think that is set by the shape of the triangle and the relationship of the holes, one to another. If I'm wrong, I'd like to hear otherwise.

In post #13, there is a link to another thread where VFRcap'n is successfully using the 4th gen dogbone on his 5th gen to get more ground clearance.

It would all have to be calculated to know for sure. I also had concerns that shortening the link would also affect the height. I was also wondering if the shorter link would rotate the triangles back at the point where the shock is mounted, possibly giving you more clearance for the shock spring?

Just visuallizing and thinking out loud. Not really looking at the actual bits..... :fing02: