Battery Not Charging

[Chris71mach1]

the bike is an 87 model VFR700F2. the battery is brand new. i see 2 problems/symptoms at this point.

first, anytime i turn the key to the "on" position, the radiator fan turns on. I know this to be an issue because until recently, the fan only turned on when the coolant reached a certain temp. im not sure if there is a coolant temp sensor, and if that may be the problem, or if the radiator fan switch on the left side of the radiator is the problem. when i unplug the motor wire from the ran switch, it will obviously turn off, and then turn back on when i plug the wire back in.

second, the charging system doesnt seem to be putting a charge back into the battery. the battery died once already, and i thought the battery was bad, which it easily couldve been due to the age and use, etc of the battery. unfortunately, now its died yet again, and this time i think its safe to say its not due to a bad battery. if i remember correctly, the R/R is an issue with these bikes due to its internal grounding on the stock units, but i dont know if this could be caused by the R/R, the stator, or what.

basically my questions are (a) could these 2 problems be related, and (b) where do i start troubleshooting so i can isolate where the problem is without arbitrarily throwing money and parts at the bike?

[swas]

basically my questions are (a) could these 2 problems be related, and (b) where do i start troubleshooting so i can isolate where the problem is without arbitrarily throwing money and parts at the bike?

a) not likely the problems are related

b) get a multimeter and start checking volts around the AC and DC charging circuits, with the bike running.

There are many, many posts on this topic and with some searches and then research after you have your readings you should have some idea of why your battery is dying. Don't forget to check your stator, (some call it alternator) resistance readings too.

If the fan circuit is similar to the 90 model then all the thermal switch does is connect the fan to earth to run it. Could be the switch stuck or an earth in the circuit after the fan.

If you aren't electrically savvy you will still need the AC and DC voltages from the appropriate locations around your bike for opinions to be fed back to you.

[Chris71mach1]

basically my questions are (a) could these 2 problems be related, and (b) where do i start troubleshooting so i can isolate where the problem is without arbitrarily throwing money and parts at the bike?

If you aren't electrically savvy you will still need the AC and DC voltages from the appropriate locations around your bike for opinions to be fed back to you.

unfortunately im not quite as savvy as i wish i were. where would i need voltage readings from to try and isolate the problem? is there a way to test the fan switch to verify whether or not its circuit is stuck closed?

[The Phantom]

Chris, Mike is correct on all counts.

First thing is to forget about the fan until you sort the charging problem.

I'm not up on 1st/2nd Gen VFRs but the sparks don't change much across the generations.

The stator is unlikely to be the culprit. The reg/rec however is looking pretty criminal, especially given that you've now lost a second battery.

Reg/recs fail in two ways - open circuit, which lets too many volts through to the battery and fries it; and closed circuit, which doesn't let enough volts through. The latter is more common, but they share a few symptoms.

Take voltage readings directly from the battery terminals - a $10 multimeter will do as well as a professional job. Look for:

12.8v at rest, everything off - this is indicative of a good, fully charged battery

12.3v with ignition switched on

12.6v at idle (ignore this if you do a cold start)

13.5v at 1500-1600rpm (i.e. just off idle)

14.5v at a steady 5k rpm

If you get these numbers and the battery fails to hold a charge, you need a new battery* - well, hopefully the one you have is not beyond redemption.

If the charging voltage is below 13.5v at 5k rpm, the reg/rec is the most likely culprit.

If you see 15/16v out of the charging system at 5k rpm, the reg/rec is definitely the culprit (accompanied by sulphurous smells as the acid boils in the battery)

* Do not charge your existing battery either by jumping the bike and riding it, or with a 'normal' car battery charger. Both are bad, the former being bad for the reg/rec, and the latter being bad for the plates in the battery. Bike batteries need a slow charge, say 1amp, but ideally they get a high initial charge then a slow charge. But you need a bike battery specific charger for this, or take it to a good bike shop.

[Beck]

Chris, Mike is correct on all counts.

First thing is to forget about the fan until you sort the charging problem.

I'm not up on 1st/2nd Gen VFRs but the sparks don't change much across the generations.

The stator is unlikely to be the culprit. The reg/rec however is looking pretty criminal, especially given that you've now lost a second battery.

Reg/recs fail in two ways - open circuit, which lets too many volts through to the battery and fries it; and closed circuit, which doesn't let enough volts through. The latter is more common, but they share a few symptoms.

Take voltage readings directly from the battery terminals - a $10 multimeter will do as well as a professional job. Look for:

12.8v at rest, everything off - this is indicative of a good, fully charged battery

12.3v with ignition switched on

12.6v at idle (ignore this if you do a cold start)

13.5v at 1500-1600rpm (i.e. just off idle)

14.5v at a steady 5k rpm

If you get these numbers and the battery fails to hold a charge, you need a new battery* - well, hopefully the one you have is not beyond redemption.

If the charging voltage is below 13.5v at 5k rpm, the reg/rec is the most likely culprit.

If you see 15/16v out of the charging system at 5k rpm, the reg/rec is definitely the culprit (accompanied by sulphurous smells as the acid boils in the battery)

* Do not charge your existing battery either by jumping the bike and riding it, or with a 'normal' car battery charger. Both are bad, the former being bad for the reg/rec, and the latter being bad for the plates in the battery. Bike batteries need a slow charge, say 1amp, but ideally they get a high initial charge then a slow charge. But you need a bike battery specific charger for this, or take it to a good bike shop.

I've always wondered about this, but, would a "Battery Tender" (by Deltran or something similar) charge up a new battery OK?? or do we have to have the dealer do the initial charging with more specialized equipment?? I've done it a few times with the Tender on new replacement batteries a couple of times, and it seems to work, but everytime a I see a thread about initial battery charging, there seems to be mention of more specialized equipment to properly do this initial charge.

Beck

95 VFR

[swas]

Chris, I can understand how you may be lost with electrical stuff but you'll have to try hard to get a feeling for it to solve your problems. Cheap digital multimeters are good enough and I bet they are more readily available there than here.

I've pasted some links that get you straight to the chase on this site in case you haven't found your way around the forums yet, although some replies get you away from your subject a bit. These two links are pinned at the top they are such usefulness.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29102

One of the posters, MisspentYouth included this on 27th Feb 2007, it's a pretty good description of modern bike electrics and should cover the earlier VFR's too.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'll here repost some good information from the UK VFR site about how your charging system works. Basically, your "stator" makes alternating current (AC), a/k/a electricity, it is sent to the "regulator/rectifier" (R/R) where the AC current is changed to direct current (DC) AND the voltage is "regulated" to something in the range of 14 volts. The R/R ties into your wiring harness and sends DC volts/amps into the battery, which may accept the charge if in good condition, or reject it, if the battery is failing or gone. If the R/R tries to stuff DC volts into a dying/dead battery, the power backs up and overheats the R/R, ruining it. If a new battery is forced to work with a dying R/R, the battery will overexert and die trying to run the bike, then you replace the R/R but if you don't replace the battery at the same time, the bad battery will kill the new R/R, and you start all over again. The stator can also go bad and/or have a bad connection to the R/R, but that is less likely. In any event, read the information below and let me know of questions. I'm sure others will come along with their input, as well.

What is the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier and what does it do?

The R/R is a little gizmo, a bit larger than a cigarette packet, that converts the AC output from the Alternator into a DC input for the battery - hence the Rectifier part of it's name. It also controls the DC input to the battery in a controlled voltage range - hence the regulator part of it's name.

History

The failure rate for this component on the '98 FiW and '99 FiX models is somewhere in the region of 70%. Generally, the failure of the R/R on the VFR gives an under-volt condition, i.e. it doesn't charge the battery. Mind you, there has been the odd, but much rarer, failure to the over-volt condition which boils the battery and can blow bulbs.

The failures are mainly down to the inability of the R/R to shed heat, which then fries the electronics in them. If you touch one after a ride, you'll find it quite hot to the touch anyway.

It is possible to fit a computer cooling fan to try and prevent the problem, but I think it merely delays the inevitable. An upgraded R/R is available for the '98 FiW and '99 FiX models with improved cooling capacity and has, so far, proved much more reliable than the original. The upgraded replacement is a direct replacement.

Luckily, Honda realised there was a problem and replaced the R/R on the '00 FiY and later models for one that's a whole lot more reliable. The later one comes with an additional voltage sensing wire, which means it's not a direct replacement for the earlier model, but it's not insurmountable to fit one if you want.

Symptoms

The usual symptoms of the R/R going AWOL in the under-volt condition are:-

1. The clock resets to 1:00 AM and the tripmeter resets to 0 miles when you start the engine.

2. The engine fails to start, this can happen even if was running a few minutes previously. Often when you've stopped for fuel.

3. The rev counter and speedo needle start to do "strange" things.

4. The bike may start to stutter and cut out.

The symptoms of the R/R failing to the over-volt condition can include:-

1. Blowing bulbs.

2. Boiled battery.

Things to check

Starting with the simple things:-

1. Check the battery connections are clean and tight. It's not been unknown for the connections to come loose.

2. Check the electrical connections to the R/R are clean. Sometimes they get corrosion in them, which ups the resistance and causes it to overheat. The overheating, in extreme cases, can melt the plastic.

If those haven't sorted things out, you really need to buy a multimeter. These cost less than £10 and will prove a bonus from here on in. If you're not confident in using one - read the instructions and practise getting DC voltage readings from it. Start practising with a little dry cell (1.5 volts) battery if needs be - we all have to start somewhere.

Warning:- Never, ever connect the multimeter to both battery terminals unless it's selected to the DC volts range. The resistance across the meter when selected to read volts is very, very high so it can measure the difference across the terminals without damage. The meter resistance when selected to amps is very, very low and would effectively short out the battery, possibly melting the leads and blowing the meter up.

Now we're moving into the nitty-gritty.

How old is the battery?

Anything over 3 or 4 years old and it may be past it's best. As they deteriorate, batteries can lose their effective capacity, i.e. they behave as a smaller battery, so, it may be worth doing a selection of load tests on it.

Battery Load Tests

As with many electrical problems, make sure the battery is fully charged. If the charging system is playing up, you've only got a finite amount of power available from it.

a. Off-load test - connect a voltmeter (selected to volts DC) to the battery and off load a fully charged battery should sit at about 12.7 or more volts. Even a failing battery can pass this test at times.

b. Low-load test - a low load test is done with the engine stationary and just turning the bikes lights on and taking a voltage reading at the battery. The battery should have at least 11.5 volts with the lights on.

c. High-load test - this is done when cranking the engine over on the starter motor. You should have more than 10.5 volts while the starting motor is cranking the engine.

If the voltages are appreciably lower than those values, the battery is probably on it's way out.

Replacement Batteries.

If you need to replace the battery, then get a recognised and quality make. For example, the Yuasa YTX12-BS is available from Halfords at around £50. Before you fit it to the bike, ensure it's been fully charged.

What model of R/R is fitted to your bike?

If you lift the seat and have a look just outboard of the LH subframe rail, just behind the cutout in the rear fairing you'll see a grey box a bit larger than a cigarette pack. If it's made by Shendingen (who make them for Honda) you'll see a number on the top of it starting with SH. If it's SH579A-11, then you've one of the original and gloriously unreliable R/Rs fitted. If so, then there's a good chance it's put up the white flag.

If the number on it is SH689DA, then you've got the upgraded item. As mentioned earlier, it is much more reliable than the original, but there is still the possibility of a random failure. Anything else is a non-standard or pattern-part R/R.

For what it's worth the '00 FiY and '01 Fi1 models had R/Rs with SH579C-12 on them which are much more reliable.

No matter which model is fitted, it'd be worth doing a charging system output voltage check.

Output Voltage Test

As alluded to already, the R/R fails when hot, but it can seem to recover when it's cooled down again. The ideal time to do this test immediately after a ride round, if possible without stopping the engine and remove the seat using the spare key.

1. With the voltmeter (set to the volts DC range) connected to the battery, at 4000 - 5000 rpm with the lights off you should have anywhere between 13.5 and 15.5 volts.

2. Turning the lights on could cause the voltage to drop by up to 0.5 volts.

Anything seriously outside those ranges could indicate the R/R is giving up the ghost.

Although Haynes specify the charging voltage should be 14.2 volts for the FiW/FiX models. It's nice if you can get it, but don't worry if you can't. For example, the upgraded SH689DA model regulates at 13.8 volts - chase the 14.2 volts and you'll be throwing a lot of serviceable R/Rs away.

Another oddment, is some people say the lights should get brighter when you rev the engine. That isn't necessarily the case. The SH689DA model can provide more voltage at idle (or slightly above it depending on what idle speed you've got set) than at higher revs, for example, the one on my VFR provides 14.2 volts at idle, but 13.7 volts at 5000 rpm.

Please be aware that multimeters can have slight errors between them. What one is reading could be very slightly different on another.

If the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier is unserviceable

Many thanks to Journeyman for this little bit of useful information.

Because the alternator is mounted inside the engine the heat from the engine could affect the insulation on the alternator stator windings. The insulation may even break down between the windings. This typically happens under load and when the engine is hot. You will still get a good output voltage from the R/R, but as the VFR uses a delta wound stator, the alternator will give a much lower AC voltage and much higher AC current.

I will warn you though, having received further information from Brain's, the following procedure may not conclusively prove the alternator stator serviceable or unserviceable. As Brain's reminds me, a multimeter doing resistance checks only uses a few volts, whereas the alternator at high speed may well be inducing in excess of 200 volts at high engine speeds - a much bigger test of the insulation of the windings. Therefore there is the real possibility that a multimeter will say everything is OK, but in use it may well not be.

To check the insulation of the alternator stator coils you'll need to do the following:-

1. Disconnect the R/R connection to the alternator - the one with the 3 yellow wires.

2. Select the resistance (Ohms or Ω) range on your multimeter and touch the two probe ends together. The readout on the multimeter will give you the effective zero reading - so if there is a value shown and your multimeter cannot be zeroed - as many cheaper ones can't be, you'll have to deduct this number from any further measurement.

3. On the three yellow wires coming from the alternator (not the ones from the R/R by accident) measure the resistance between each of the wires in turn, i.e. have one probe on the connection to one yellow wire, then touch the other probe to the connections for the other two yellow wires. So if one probe is one wire 1, place the other probe on wire 2 then 3. Then move the probe from wire 1 and put it on wire 2, then place the other probe on wire 3. That way all combinations are covered.

4. The resistance readings in step 3 should be anywhere between 0.1 Ohm and 1 Ohm - remember to deduct the resistance reading you got in step 2 from the values you saw in step 3.

5. Now test the resistance between each of the yellow wires and earth. There should be no continuity, i.e. infinitely high resistance, between any of the yellow wires and earth.

If the values in step 4 or step 5 are outside the tolerances, then there's a pretty good chance the alternator stator coils are knackered.

Replacement Voltage Regulator/Rectifiers

Use the upgraded OEM one. Electrex make one, but it's reliability record isn't anything to shout about.

To get an upgraded OEM one at a good price, try David Silver Spares who do them for £55 (plus VAT and P&P), which compares very favourably with about £200 from a Honda dealer for exactly the same item, just look in "OE Regulator Rectifiers" on their site.

If you get the one from "Genuine Spares" area of the DSS site (£79 plus VAT and P&P), the extra money merely goes into buying a nice Honda box to throw in the bin when you've got the R/R out of it.

The cheaper one is identical, just supplied in a poly-bag. Also included is a set of longer bolts (the upgraded R/R is thicker than the original as can be seen in this link) and an additional aluminium heatsink.

Reuse the original domed nuts as these stop the bolt ends rubbing away at the nearby wiring loom. It can also pay dividends to put some heat transfer paste (available from outlets such as Maplins) between the R/R and the heatsink and between the heatsink and the rear subframe. That'll help transfer extra heat from the R/R into the subframe.

I'd tend to advise, if the battery is over 3 years old or of unknown history, replacing that at the same time as the R/R. A failing battery can over-work the R/R hastening it's failure.

The charging system voltage is OK, the battery load test voltages are good, the alternator resistance values are fine, but the battery still flattens quite quickly.

Now we're looking at the battery leakage rate. This is the current (Amps) the bike draws even though everything is turned off.

Ideally the leakage should be less than 1.2mA, but with an alarm fitted and armed it might marginally higher than that. It might be worth consulting the alarm instructions and seeing what current it draws.

You'll need to set your multimeter to the highest DC Amps range. this is to stop the meter overloading when it's connected. On some models of multimeter you'll need to change which connection the red lead goes to.

When set to read amps, under no circumstances connect the multimeter between the battery terminals, otherwise you could short out the battery, melt the leads and wreck the meter.

1. Disconnect the battery negative (earth) lead.

2. Set to multimeter to the highest DC Amps range.

3. Connect the multimeter between the battery negative terminal and the disconnected negaive (earth) lead.

4. Going down one DC Amps range at a time, reduce the range until the reading is sensible. Always start high to protect the meter from overloading.

5. The ideal leak rate should be below 1.2mA, but as mentioned above it may be very slightly higher because of any alarms/immobilisers, but not substantially so.

If the leakage is substantially higher than 1.2mA, try pulling and refitting fuses one at a time and seeing which fuse make the biggest difference to the leakage value when removed. This'll give you a clue as to which circuits are drawing too much current.

Getting more technical

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29975

If you have a multimeter with probes which can't get into the socket pins etc use a straightened paperclip poke it in and touch the probes of the meter to them. Be careful you don't put the clip in too far and short out anything, it only needs to be touching the brass coloured bits. Most meter probes will make contact with the spade connectors bright bits, even on the R/R. There was a beaut schematic diagram of a typical VFR electrical charging ciruit around once but I have lost it's location now. If you have a manual just colour the wires you are interested in so you don't go crosseyed. It's pretty easy to trace from stator to R/R to battery and the plugs along the way. Now is the best time to learn, desperation being the best motivation to concentrate.

By the way when you read the threads of the posts you will see that just about any motorcycle R/R can be made to fit as long as you know how to make some changes to the connections.

Hope this helps, Happy testing.

[Guest]

You can check just your all cables its properly connected or not.Another solution is that checkout your genrater If your battery is not charging properly.

[Switchblade]

Great idea and WELCOME Koinajoi !!!!