Fork Height--5th & 6th Gen Same?

[Trace]

On my 2000, I recently raised my forks from 44mm to 49mm, measured from the flat top of the fork to the top of the triple-tree, as per the proper method in the manual. [note....some bikes come from Honda at 39, some maybe at 44, or were moved to 44 by a prior owner or the Honda shop, etc. You should measure yours, and YMMV]

Anyway, as other have marveled, it makes a huge difference in turn-in and tossy-bility (teckyhnical term!) and quickness and nimbleness, even going a mere 5mm from 44 to 49. I've had no head shake or other unpleasantness as a result of this 10 minute mod, up to 150 mph.

The Question Is: Is 49mm the proper number for a 6th? I assume it is, but I've only been tuned-in to 5th Gen numbers, and I'm going to be doing this on another VFRD member's 6th Gen this coming weekend (and/or raising the rear a tad and lower the front a tad less, so he can keep maximum ground clearance without getting the shakes, etc., the peg-scraping bastid!!!).

Thanks.

[benSV]

Sure is, scanned that one myself, page 13-29.

I just acquired the 5th gen manual in .pdf, here's a capture of the appropriate spot, it's on page 13-26, sorry the quality isn't as good:

border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Seems they also measure to the top of the cap on the 5th gen too.

Chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh.. that excerpt says top of fork tube just like the 6th gen manual! The cap is going to give you another 10mm. If you measure to the top of the cap and set that distance to 39mm you have lowered the forks compared to stock and you're going to slow down the steering.

Mine is 41mm to the top of the tube, not the cap, if I was measuring to the cap it'd be closer to 49mm I think. Don't know if people are getting confused and that's how they're coming up with the bigger numbers as appropriate. Mine handles fine at the track and flicks over just fine. My front tire is on the ground when the bike is on the centerstand but you pull up on the front wheel you can turn it.

[Trace]

This might be a dumb question, but wouldn't raising the forks also raise the handlebars by lowering the chassi?

Cheaper Genmar riser kind of?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, because when you replace (or re-tighten) the clip-ons (bars), you lower them down to the top of the triple, as the anti-rotation lug on the clip-on must engage with the slot in the triple. Anyway, the net effect (and this has been discussed plenty) is that there is only a very, very slight change to the riding position due to the slightly different geometry. For all practical purposes, there is no change to the riding position.

A Genmar safely raises the bars by providing anti-rotation lugs and slots.

[Trace]

Uh.. that excerpt says top of fork tube just like the 6th gen manual!? The cap is going to give you another 10mm.? If you measure to the top of the cap and set that distance to 39mm you have lowered the forks compared to stock and you're going to slow down the steering.

Mine is 41mm to the top of the tube, not the cap, if I was measuring to the cap it'd be closer to 49mm I think.? Don't know if people are getting confused and that's how they're coming up with the bigger numbers as appropriate.? Mine handles fine at the track and flicks over just fine.? My front tire is on the ground when the bike is on the centerstand but you pull up on the front wheel you can turn it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And all THAT is what the corn-fusion is about. My Clymer is pretty clear that it's the top of the cap "on the flat". So, wherever the word flat is used, we can be sure it's the cap. Otherwise, it's ambiguous for sure. I interpret that photo AND the text that Viffed provided for the 5th Gen to mean 39mm from triple to the cap flat.

Practically speaking, don't you think everyone, including Honda, really mean "top of the cap where it's flat at the top of the whole tube thingo"? I mean, after all, why use an almost invisible line when a nice reference point is staring you in the face? Do the forks get set at the factory without the caps and other guts in place? Maybe...which would explain why they might say "tube" instead of "cap flat". Dunno, but I don't think so.

So, for anyone who's raised their forks on 6th Gens: What measurement, from the cap flat top to the triple have you used with success?

[benSV]

Mine was very obviously set to the top of the tube and not the cap. I'm not sure what the issue is, that line is very visible on my forks.

Who are you going to trust Honda or a 3rd party manual?

I think the photographs are just vague, I would trust the text of the Honda manual. Many of the other photographs in the manuals are hard to see as well. They went to a point of saying top of the tube in the text of both manuals, and setting to the top of the tube gives you the lower front end.

[Trace]

Mine was very obviously set to the top of the tube and not the cap.  I'm not sure what the issue is, that line is very visible on my forks.

Who are you going to trust Honda or a 3rd party manual?

I think the photographs are just vague, I would trust the text of the Honda manual.  Many of the other photographs in the manuals are hard to see as well.  They went to a point of saying top of the tube in the text of both manuals, and setting to the top of the tube gives you the lower front end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you're right, that line is quite visible. As for who to trust....not sure at this point. Indeed, the whole subject is vague. A person can interpret "top of the tube" either way. But the cap is only, maybe 2mm thick, so it's not a big deal either way.

I guess, in the end, it's T&E with raising the forks, until you get headshake. Then you stop and go down a few mm and call it a day.

[wera803]

I just acquired the 5th gen manual in .pdf, here's a capture of the appropriate spot, it's on page 13-26, sorry the quality isn't as good:

border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Seems they also measure to the top of the cap on the 5th gen too.

Chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They must have changed it at some point then. My 5th gen Honda service manual says 41 mm (1.6 in). Same page as you quoted though (13-26) although the picture is a drawing, not an actual picture like you posted. My manual also covers 1998-2001, maybe they made a change with the 2000 bikes were released or something. P/N 61MBG03. Inside the front cover it says "Date of Issue: December, 1999"

Text for installation reads:

Install the fork legs into the steering stem and fork top bridge.

Position the top end of the fork tube 41 mm (1.6 in) from the upper surface of the top bridge as shown.

From the drawing, you can clearly see that they are not taking the measurement from the top of the cap. The problem is they make it hard to see where exactly the measurement is being taken from. It actually looks like it is from the groove that holds that clip (to keep the clip-on from coming off).

Looks like Honda can't even decide what it should be. As far as I know the 5th gen wasn't changed at all to explain the different numbers (no fork, wheel, triples, etc. changed).

[Guest Viffed]

They must have changed it at some point then. My 5th gen Honda service manual says 41 mm (1.6 in). Same page as you quoted though (13-26) although the picture is a drawing, not an actual picture like you posted. My manual also covers 1998-2001, maybe they made a change with the 2000 bikes were released or something. P/N 61MBG03. Inside the front cover it says "Date of Issue: December, 1999"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a possibility, the manual I have is the same part number, but is dated January 1998...

Chris

[Trace]

Friggin' manuals! :goofy:

Friggin' fork height! :goofy:

[Baileyrock]

I've always measured to the top of the Fork Cap like most or all the pictures indicate and Only use Factory Honda manuals.

It's just a starting point for me anyway, I move them up & down all over until I like how it feels/handles.

I could measure my 6th gen but I also have a ride height adjustable Ohlins on the rear and haven't kept good track of what I did back there ! :goofy:

Don't worry about if your at the track, that's what the track is for. To work on set-up, make a change and ride take notes, make a change and ride, take notes, etc. etc. . Always use Lap Times along with feel to verify your actually going faster, not just feeling faster. :goofy:

PS bracket is on the way tracy. :thumbsup:

[Adam30]

I as well was just wondering what other 6th gen owners have gone with successfully. For instance, can you go much lower than the stock setting, and if so, roughly how much before the headshake sets in?

[Trace]

It's just a starting point for me anyway, I move them up & down all over until I like how it feels/handles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. What I hoped to get is a good 6th Gen starting point. I'm gonna figger on 43 mm, which should split the difference between "tube top" and "cap top" measurements. Anything near that I'll figger is "stock". Axman prefers to raise his rear rather than lower his triples, 'cuz he's a peg-scraping bastid.

Don't worry about if your at the track, that's what the track is for.  To work on set-up, make a change and ride take notes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope! Axman expects it to be purrfect when he pulls out of my Not Very Busy Little Shop! :P

PS:  bracket is on the way, tracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool, and thanks. Looking forward to getting started on that project. :thumbsup:

[Trace]

I as well was just wondering what other 6th gen owners have gone with successfully.? For instance, can you go much lower than the stock setting, and if so, roughly how much before the headshake sets in?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly!!! C'mon you guyz! How LOW can you GO, assuming you have the stock (no shims, no $1000 shock) rear height? Anybody? Anyone? Bueller?

On Axman's bike, I'm gonna make sure they're the same height, first of all. Then, I'll prolly loosen, wiggle, tap-tap, and retighten regardless of the height settings, because he thinks he may have torqued/tweaked them a teeny bit whilst hammering the bike thru a particularly tight, fast corner at the track. Gotta make sure it's all square and plumb first, right?

[McCleod]

I have rotated the triangle to lower the bike (2005 model), what would be a good starting point for the front elevation? I have the genmar risers, where do I measure from. Thanks for your help.

[Guest]

My 2005 came out of the crate at 44mm. I have since raised the forks to 49mm. I have also experimented with the bar height and am now running them all the way up against the clip. I rotated them inward until I can feel the tank with my hand just before I hit the steering stop.

Before I raised the forks, I had to hold it down in a turn to a degree I found excessive. I prefer the more neutral handling I get with the 49mm fork height. BTW, I tend to run the preload on the rear shock on the low side.

The only downside to the 49mm setting is the non-adjustable sidestand. It's a bit too long now.

[Trace]

My 2005 came out of the crate at 44mm.? I have since raised the forks to 49mm.? I have also experimented with the bar height and am now running them all the way up against the clip.? I rotated them inward until I can feel the tank with my hand just before I hit the steering stop.?

Before I raised the forks, I had to hold it down in a turn to a degree I found excessive.? I prefer the more neutral handling I get with the 49mm fork height.? BTW, I tend to run the preload on the rear shock on the low side.

The only downside to the 49mm setting is the non-adjustable sidestand.? It's a bit too long now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BobT--that's good info, thanks!! :thumbsup: Is that 44 to the top of the cap or the top of the tube (at the parting line) please? The cap is....officially...drumroll please.....5m thick on a 5th Gen.

As for neutral handling, yes, that's exactly what I found with I went to 49m (to the top of cap, on the flat). I'm installing a Penske very soon, and will prolly raise the arse a just few more mm [maybe 3] to see what it does.

Axman-you see this? We now have a target for 6th Gen.

[benSV]

I bet the distance you can raise them varies with tires. I had headshake on my 02 without even lowering it when I stuck Dunslops on it.

BTW.. BobT thanks.. I'm going to rotate my bars out away from the tank. (For comfort)

I hadn't thought to just unbolt them and see if they moved everyone seemed to say they were stuck and couldn't be rotated.

[Trace]

I hadn't thought to just unbolt them and see if they moved everyone seemed to say they were stuck and couldn't be rotated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, they can't be rotated much (if I'm reading BobT's comment correctly). There's a little bit of slop between the lug on the clipons and the slot in the triples, allowing a few degrees of rotation on the tube, for either narrow or wider "grip". I've set mine while gently loaded forward (wide grip), against the lug (just the opposite of BobT's suggestion), so they can't rotate forward any further.

Or...if you wanted to raise the clipons so where the lug doesn't engage the triple, you can swing it any amount you want. But.....then you stand a very good chance of the bars rotating way forward during a "moment", as the clamping force on the tube from the pinch bolt might not be enough to prevent it....thus, the reason for the lug in the first place. I've heard where others have done this to kinda simulate the effect of Genmars, with no problems.....but then, they might not have yet had a serious enough "moment". YMMV.

[Guest]

Trace i talked to a penske shock engineer yesterday.Very helpful person. I was impressed due to the fact that the first words out of his mouth were not you need to buy a $900.00 dollar shock. He did suggest a dirrection to go in. and according to him the article i gave you had some facts wrong, especially when it xcomes to shock travel.

[Adam30]

Yes, I was wondering as well if tire brand/model would have to do somewhat with what the optimum fork height settings are. But, any other feedback on what others have found to be a good height would still be appreciated.

[Trace]

Yes, I was wondering as well if tire brand/model would have to do somewhat with what the optimum fork height settings are.  But, any other feedback on what others have found to be a good height would still be appreciated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was wondering this, and I'm convinced that tire profile, and probably internal construction play a significant role in optimum settings, like headshake, turn in, etc. In fact....tires MUST play a key role. But I haven't a remote CLUE as to what the effects would be, tire vs. tire vs. tire.

[ProMed]

I was wondering this, and I'm convinced that tire profile, and probably internal construction play a significant role in optimum settings, like headshake, turn in, etc.? In fact....tires MUST play a key role.? But I haven't a remote CLUE as to what the effects would be, tire vs. tire vs. tire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just raised the forks on my 02 to 49mm, stock is 41mm. I am running Diablos. Hopefully I can finish the rest of my mods and try it out this weekend.

also- I just put in 1.0 race tech springs along with the standard 10 wt fork oil set a level just under stock. Shouldn't the stiffer springs work well with raising the forks?

[spud786]

the push only starts after the tires get warm, and then only on fast corners that you start to accel thru the apex. as soon as you throttle it at all it wants to go straight. the guys from g.m.d were at the track and watched me in my troubled areas and said i was over riding my suspension.what they said was happening was that on those turns the soft suspension was pushing flat which makes the bike longer and unable to turn. i ride my wifes f3 and dont have this problem and im at least 6-8 seconds faster on her bike. but would like to get my bike to handle better since i feel more comfortable on it because i dont ride hers except for the track

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My 06 vfr, I'm in serious consultation with rear suspension, if a set it to where it's plush, the front end doesn't corner well(kinda like what your speaking of), if I set the rear to where it corners well(stiffer less sag) I take some what of a beating on the seat on rough road(only 3click variance makes quite a bit of difference)(smooth road is fine).

I havent spent much time on the rebound adjustment though

[enzed_viffer]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I was studying all the suspension stuff yesterday to get my bike sorted. Did some measuring, and I had previously backed off my front preload under the mistaken impression it would make the ride more cushy over bumpy roads, and it was about 41mm sag, so I tightened preload up 1 turn. This morning it was much better in the turns, not requiring as much pressure on the inside bar to keep it down, and not tending to run wide.

I also measured the fork height: about 56mm. :goofy:

What with a 5-6mm spacer in the rear shock, that's fairly radical settings.

But like I said, it was pretty good in the turns this morning.

When my Elka comes (SOMEONE ELSE SIGN UP FOR A 5TH GEN ONE, PLEASE!!!), I guess I'll need to set everything back to stock, and do some more fiddling.

Or will I?

Should I set the Elka up with say 3mm of rideheight before I install it, and leave my front fork as it is, or raise it a bit?

[Guest]

I was chasing the standard height for my 2002 vtec a while back. I couldn't get a response so I purchased a manual and it told me 41mm to FORK top, not fork bolt /cap(2 to 3 mm thick on the vtec). So to verify, off i went to the local dealer and measured a new one on the floor, you guessed it, it was 43 to 44mm to the top of the fork cap flat.

BTW I purchased my vtec used and it was set at 49.5mm. It had standard rear shock/forks. When first purchased every thing was perfect but about 2000 kls back I noticed if you let go of the bars at 95 kph the front got a shimmy up but otherwise was still terrific. I have a battlax 014 on the front and it has about 1000 kls left max.

Just this week was riding on a very quiet back road and had a nasty experience on a sweeping bend at 145 kph/90mph. I hit a bump I didn't see (so it cannot have been that bad) and the bars threw one way then the other quite violently. It was all over in a heart beat, certainly by the time I sh1t myself. As quick as it happened it was good again. Nothing bad came out of it but I wonder if the combination of lowered front, the old tyre and 48000kls on standard suspension could have brought this about. As I stated before my front tyre is near shot so I am not going to have a knee jerk reaction and change the fork height, I really like how the bike turns like it is.

I am going to change the front end setup soon, I have already installed a new rear shock but in the mean time will be a little more cautious.

Adios amigos.

[spud786]

I as well was just wondering what other 6th gen owners have gone with successfully. For instance, can you go much lower than the stock setting, and if so, roughly how much before the headshake sets in?

I run 49 or 47 mm on my 6th, o6 came off the floor that way, it was not set at 41mm