jasonsmith

I sure wish there was a nicely laid out spreadsheet that showed what parts work with what. There seems to be healthy assortment of options for USD forks but all the other bits and what works with what.... :mellow:

MadFrog if you did your fork valving yourself you may have noticed that RaceTech's compression valving recommendations covers a few different spring rates based on the style of riding. The rebound valving is usually set to the spring but as Kevin stated above just throw in a set of less stiff springs and see how it feels. I'm not sure what oil weight your currently using but you could always thin it out a bit if the ride isn't what you want and you really don't want to take it apart again. I'm running .95kg and I am 220lbs, they are perfect for me.

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes: I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring. BR I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded. I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

Three words - BRAKES, BRAKES, BRAKES... VFR brakes are fine, until you try serious brakes. All the other benefits of the USD fork swap (increased stiffness, lower unsprung weight, closer tolerances reducing play, more adjustability, better selection of aftermarket upgrades, good looks...) are just extra benefits :wheel: Sold!!!! I'm going to blame this all on you just so you know.

One question I always ask myself when I see one of these threads is, are the VTEC forks really that bad? I find the swap to upside downs with full adjustments very intriguing.

JD if I take your 1270# and divide that by 250 I get 5.08. If I take that 5.08 and x by my 220# I get a 1117.6 spring which is very very close to being right. I think 1250# would be right for me for about 30mm rider sag. Also if I take the average Honda designed rider of 170# and x 5.08 I get 863# spring which is very close to what Honda seems to have calculated. 5.08 kinda seems like a magic number but it doesn't follow the rest of the numbers on your table. Curious, what rider sag number is your target?

Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR Parts Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase. FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase. RaceTech G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit FMGV S2040G Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve) FRGV SR2001 Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt) New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell) Numbers (with full gear, 3/4 full tank)... Front: Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster) Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm. Rear: Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load) Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

Dan, Unless GP suspension happens to be using the one and maybe only accurate VFR spring rate calculator and comes up with at least a 1200lb rear spring rate, It will be wrong IMO and you won't be able to achieve the numbers you yourself posted for Free & Rider Sag. If they come up with something light like a 900lb spring and re-valve the Penske for it, the valving will be off by the time you get around to installing the correct and much heavier spring. :sleep: You know the "Transformed Wow!" thread is one of the best threads going for info. Why don't we maybe add some setups to the front page or somewhere else that are working. We have the 3 of us so far with numbers that are 98% dialed in.

That is true, but really you have a bunch of people here with setups that can get you into the ball park. And yes RaceTech's calculator is busted.

Well here are a couple but as BR stated above they can't be trusted 100%. RaceTech 02-09 VFR - http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Honda&yr=02-09&ml=VFR800&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork&bikeid=261 Sonic http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php

Jason, From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale). I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag. The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02: BR I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

mine stayed stuck on the fork so I left it and reused it. It's all good.

You know one thing that we don't seem to be talking about is the bike height in relation to each end. I noticed when I installed my shock it was a bit taller at first than stock and it loaded the front end quite a bit more than being in the what I think is stock position now. My free sag numbers changed considerably after the minor adjustment. When were chasing millimeters in the quest of supreme balance should we also be assuring that front to back things are copacetic? I know the manual states the height of the forks but what about the rear?

I don't agree. When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world. MD and I are about the same weight right now. The numbers don't lie though... If I can only get 35mm of rider sag with only 7mm of free sag then for me to get more rider sag and not loose my free sag I must go to a higher spring rate. What is your rider and free sag if you don't mind me asking? Hmmm... that's a good point. IIRC, I didn't measure the free sag, only the rider sag, which was between 30 and 35mm. I'd have to measure to find out what the free sag is - I'll do it tonight. It's interesting (or perhaps not...) how much things have to do with "feel". When I first fitted the Elka, it felt SO much better (firmer, more controlled) than the Showa, especially in rutted corners. It also made the front end feel very wallowy in comparison. Fitting some 0.95 springs and heavier weight oil made the front feel less overwhelmed, and the cornering was superb, and very precise, especially on Avon Storms. However, even with Racetech gold valves and the front end properly set up, it was awful on rough roads at about 40-50 mph, and gave me such a workout I would've ended up with armpump on a long road. It was OK at lower speeds and great at higher speeds thouhg. Now with 0.90 springs in the forks and appropriate revalving, it feels plush and much more pleasant to ride, but I've lost that scalpel-like cornering, and it makes the rear end feel harsh in comparison. I guess you can't have a compliant ride and great handling, unless maybe it's on a lighter bike. :angry: Measure up that free sag my friend, it is the "tell" so to speak if you have the correct spring rate or not. If you have 30-35mm of rider sag I would bet you can walk over to your bike right now (on the side stand) and give it a tug on the rear end it most likely won't have any movement. I have .95kg's in my setup and it's perfect so I would agree that maybe for your 190# it was too stiff. Again the numbers are telling the tale for me, I have 35mm rider and 15mm free in the front which means I could probably get 32mm rider and 10mm or so free which is also very good. I am confident that my front is setup as it should be. What valving do you and did you have in the front? Compression and rebound or just compression?

I can guarantee you that it is too soft my friend. I specifically told Elka to put an 1100# in the rear hoping to match the front end work. I got .95kg springs in the front and that setup for my weight (also 220lbs naked :fing02: ) is PERFECT. As the smart suspension dudes have already mentioned based off my sag #'s my rear is slightly too soft still and I agree with them. It feels great but based on the numbers the suspension is quite "Balanced" and that is the whole point if this exercise for me. Also as mentioned above changing the spring out is no big deal providing that the valving in the shock can handle the extra spring rate. Give Elka a call and see if upping the spring rate will be an issue. We know my rear is too soft because I am short on free sag (7mm) due to having to dial in pre-load (23 clicks) to get to my desired 35mm of rider sag. I would guess that if you tried to get to 35mm of rider sag you would have 0 free sag and your pre-load would be fully cranked. This thread is all about "Balance". I know you were looking to get some stuff for the front, PM me. You should do the same to the front as you do to the rear. Changing springs alone in the front without valving won't yield that great of a result either since you should most likely go to .95kg's as well. I was scared about increasing the spring rates and getting a stiff ride but realized that if the valving is done correctly then the ride will be firmer but not stiff if you know what I mean. I took mine out for spin with this setup and it felt awesome. Firm (responsive) but not stiff or harsh, even over the construction area's that I deliberately aimed for. I just actually finished pulling my shock, 1hr, record time for me. Elka didn't position the reservoir line correctly so it was forcing itself on a wiring bundle before exiting out of the sub-frame area. I adjusted it as per their instructions but now it's leaking and won't stop. Calling Elka tomorrow to see what they will do for me. I will most likely get them to change my spring to a 1200# if I have to send it in. This suspension tinkering is a roller coaster ride at best. It can be a pain in the rear, but it's fun to take the bike apart and even more fun riding it the way it should have been built in the first place.

Bumping the spring rate up is going to decrease your free sag to less than the current 9mm. BTW, here are Ohlins recommendations on sag, just another take on it. Static Fr: 15-30mm, R: 10-20mm Rider Fr: 35-50mm, R: 25-40mm I have 23 clicks on the rear pre-load which is about 8mm or so of artificial height (negative free sag) at the shock which translates to more at the hub where I was measuring from. If I go with a stiffer spring I won't need as much pre-load. If I didn't have any pre-load then yes It would decrease my free sag but in this case I think it will actually give me some more room. (please correct me before Monday if I am wrong ) As per Ohlins recommendations though I am almost bang on... hummm

I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side. Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :biggrin: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess. So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already. EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

COMPLETION REPORT Specs Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. My Suspension Preference - slightly to the plush side. I could have gone with 1.0kg and maybe an 1150lbs rear spring but I didn't want a "firm" ride. Valving was setup accordingly as well. I also have room built in to loose weight without causing too much firmness in the ride. Parts Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase. FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase. RaceTech G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit FMGV S2040G Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve) FRGV SR2001 Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt) New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell) I posted the above quote in a different thread yesterday but considering this is about overall balance I thought it was best here. After yesterday's numbers I adjusted my shock to lower the bikes height back to a "stockish" level. I have no idea what the stock height actually is and/or where to measure it, if anyone knows.... So after decreasing the height of the rear and subsequently unloading the forks a bit I got the following numbers (with gear, 3/4 full tank)... Front: Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster) Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm. Rear: Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load) Free Sag - 7mm, down 2mm. I can live with those numbers. A big thanks to all and especially Kevin who created this thread and put me on the right path. The bike is balanced as far as I can tell in the first go and I am happy. Now to spend the summer tweaking the dials :fing02:

Actually the VFR & F4i forks are exactly the same design as far as bolt location, the only difference is that the VFR uses a smaller bolt size than the F4i. Still no need to pull the wheel, just remove the axle (& pinch bolt if needed) and you have full access to the bolts in the bottom of the forks. Also no reason not be able to flush every bit of old oil from the tubes when there empty and use compress air to blow out any remaining flushing fluid that might still be there. :fing02: Easy, simple, quick! Unless you need to replace seals or tube bushings there's no reason to pull the forks or any bodywork! :goofy: Would I be correct by saying the internal rod for the f4i is hollow and the vfr 6thgen is solid? My rod was hollow. I know because oil was constantly dripping out of it all over my garage floor. :mad:

Be sure to let us know how that set-up works for you! :goofy: Well all the bits arrived and they are all in. I tried to do it without taking the forks off but the oil lock piece at the bottom of the fork caused some grief. I couldn't get the cartridge to seat so couldn't get the bolt back in, none the less taking the fork off added another 10 min so it wasn't a big deal. So the numbers... Rear - 35mm sag in the rear with 9mm free sag. Front - 35mm sag with 22mm free sag... is that okay or is the spring to stiff...? It can't be to stiff, considering that RaceTech actually wants a 1kg+ spring for my 220lbs. I was having some stiction related number changing but I'm pretty sure I got decently reliable numbers. So... is 20-22mm free sag okay?