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Cluggo

Side stand issue

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Just purchased a 1999 vfr800 today. It’s the red, silver anniversary edition that people either love or hate. It’s got 49000 km on it and rides great. I’ve come off a versys 650 so it’s a big step up...even tho I love the versys....apart from the seat. Is there anything you can recommend that I should do straight away apart from change oil, filters, check rectifier, chain? It does have one issue, that is it will only start with side stand up, even in neutral. Must be a faulty switch so I’ll need to get that fixed. Has anyone got any suggestions?

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4 hours ago, Cluggo said:

Just purchased a 1999 vfr800 today. It’s the red, silver anniversary edition that people either love or hate. It’s got 49000 km on it and rides great. I’ve come off a versys 650 so it’s a big step up...even tho I love the versys....apart from the seat. Is there anything you can recommend that I should do straight away apart from change oil, filters, check rectifier, chain? It does have one issue, that is it will only start with side stand up, even in neutral. Must be a faulty switch so I’ll need to get that fixed. Has anyone got any suggestions?

If you need to start your bike with Sidestand UP and clutch pulled in AND your Neutral indicator light is working normally, then I think you have an Open Circuit Clutch Diode. (Upper diode in the drawing)

 

The fact that you can start the bike with the Sidestand UP verifies the Sidestand switch and its wiring is O.K.

 

See attached diagram.

If the upper diode in the diagram goes Open Circuit then the Ground supplied by the Neutral Switch cannot get to the Starter Relay to energise it. The only other Ground path is then via your SideStand in the UP position and clutch pulled in. The clutch Diode is located in your Fuse Box.

A simple check to confirm an open diode would be to simply remove the Diode unit and rotate it 180deg and re insert (provided it's not keyed). In this state you would be able to start your bike normally, however with the faulty diode now in the Neutral Indicator light line your neutral light won't work. You could also just measure it with a multimeter in Diode Range if you have one.

 

Welcome to the forum Cluggo, that's a beautiful looking anniversary 5gen. Enjoy your ride.

Cheers. :beer:

 

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Thanks so much grum. Not sure if I have to have clutch in tho, still up at dealers so will check

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44 minutes ago, Cluggo said:

Thanks so much grum. Not sure if I have to have clutch in tho, still up at dealers so will check

You would have to have the clutch pulled In otherwise the Sidestand has NO effect! UNLESS the clutch switch has been By-passed! And that would be dangerous.

Perhaps the dealership should sort this issue for you, make it part of your purchase agreement!

Where in Aus are you?

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You're right Grum; the earth path for the starter solenoid must go through EITHER the neutral switch (in neutral) OR the clutch switch (pulled in) AND the sidestand switch (stand up).

 

So if you always have to have the stand up to start, then the neutral switch (or the wire) may be disconnected. The diode need not be involved. 

 

What is the neutral light doing?

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Neutral light works fine, and I don’t need to hold the clutch in to start the bike, just the stand needs to be up. 

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Unfortunately I bought it direct from the owner, not the dealer, even tho the dealer had it at his showroom. Think he was doing the seller a favour as the seller is buying a bike from them. Hope I haven’t forked out good money on a dud. Spur of the moment to buy it, paid $2700. Of course didn’t get a mechanic to look over it first, heart not head. Thanks terry for your input too. Grum, going by your logic it sounds like the clutch switch may have been bypassed. Why would anyone do this and why would it be dangerous. Sorry re my ignorance

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On 26 August 2019 at 5:36 PM, Cluggo said:

Neutral light works fine, and I don’t need to hold the clutch in to start the bike, just the stand needs to be up. 

Then the bike has been modified! As you can see from the drawing which is actually shown with the Clutch Pulled in, the switch is closed. So the clutch switch is open circuit if NOT pulled, in this case, the Sidestand will have NO effect in the energising of your starter relay. Sounds like the Clutch Switch has been by-passed!!

The worry is, if you are sitting on the bike and in gear with Sidestand up, you can just hit the Starter Button and your bike will jolt forward as the starter tries to kicks in!!

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Well perhaps they thought it just might be an easier way to get around the original issue, in that the Normal Neutral start was not working because of a potential Open Circuit Clutch diode.

Hopefully it shouldn't be too big a deal to get it all back to standard ops. The fact that your Neutral light works means there is no issue with the Neutral Switch.

Are you competent with a multimeter? I've mentioned above the easy way of checking the Diode. Have a good look at the clutch lever and see if you can locate the Clutch Switch near the base of the lever. With your ear close to the lever and as you slowly pull the clutch in you should hear an audible click as the switch activates, there should be two wire attached to the switch. Hopefully they are not just shorting wires!!!! But that would explain your situation if they were.

 

Are you able to discuss the situation with the previous owner, they may give you a good insight as to what and why the starting system is not correct?

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No, useless with a multimeter, but getting the whole bike checked over before I start riding it hopefully in the next few days. Will take along all these ideas so that mechanic doesn't spend too much time thinking about it. Guess if he is a good mechanic he should sort it pretty quickly. Thanks for all your help. Im still having problems navigating this forum. clicking on things I shouldn't and not always finding full comments. A new learning curve for me.

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3 minutes ago, Cluggo said:

No, useless with a multimeter, but getting the whole bike checked over before I start riding it hopefully in the next few days. Will take along all these ideas so that mechanic doesn't spend too much time thinking about it. Guess if he is a good mechanic he should sort it pretty quickly. Thanks for all your help. Im still having problems navigating this forum. clicking on things I shouldn't and not always finding full comments. A new learning curve for me.

Ok. Well at least you have some good ammunition regards your issue, but this most certainly is an issue that needs to be sorted ASAP.

Good luck and keep us posted as to how you go and what the mechanic finds.

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30 minutes ago, Cluggo said:

I’m on the central coast nsw

Bummer, if you weren't too far away, I'd have a look at it for ya.

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That would have been great. I rang the previous owner and he said it’s normal, it’s a safety mechanism. Wonder what else I’ll find if he’s willing to tell furphy s like that. 

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2 hours ago, Cluggo said:

That would have been great. I rang the previous owner and he said it’s normal, it’s a safety mechanism. Wonder what else I’ll find if he’s willing to tell furphy s like that. 

That's weird it's meant to be a safety system that currently isn't! 

Another thing you should check is with the engine running and in gear (Clutch in of course), lower the side stand, the engine should instantly cut out.

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Ok, will do. Picking it up in a coupe of hours and taking it to a bike mechanic tomorrow for a thorough check over. Hope he doesn’t find too much wrong or else my bargain bike will no longer be a bargain and I’ll be in trouble! Thinking should get oil and filter done, air filter, hoses checked, coolant changed, brake fluid changed, seals and bearings checked, electric cables checked. Suddenly that’s sounding very much like a grand!

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Some countries have different rules regarding sidestands I think.  There could be a version for Oz that supposed to be like that.

 

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35 minutes ago, JoelF said:

Some countries have different rules regarding sidestands I think.  There could be a version for Oz that supposed to be like that.

 

Agree there may be different versions. But there is no way a bike can only be started with the side stand UP. And also not to have the clutch pulled in! ......unheard of, it's wrong and just outright dangerous.

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1 hour ago, Cluggo said:

Ok, will do. Picking it up in a coupe of hours and taking it to a bike mechanic tomorrow for a thorough check over. Hope he doesn’t find too much wrong or else my bargain bike will no longer be a bargain and I’ll be in trouble! Thinking should get oil and filter done, air filter, hoses checked, coolant changed, brake fluid changed, seals and bearings checked, electric cables checked. Suddenly that’s sounding very much like a grand!

Did the PO supply you with any service history? If not then yes do all of the above. Throw in a new set of spark plugs for good measure. Hopefully with all this done and your starting system sorted she'll be a great ride. Good luck.

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10 hours ago, Grum said:

Agree there may be different versions. But there is no way a bike can only be started with the side stand UP. And also not to have the clutch pulled in! ......unheard of, it's wrong and just outright dangerous.

Hmm, I agree that it's dumb but my dead-stock 2001 Ducati Monster 900S cannot be started or run with the sidestand down and I am pretty sure it'll try to start in gear with the clutch out.

The former is absolutely intended from the factory, the latter might be my clutch switch if it ever had one.  I cannot warm up the bike on the sidestand due to this arrangement.

 

An even worse situation, some Ducatis came with spring loaded auto-retracting sidestands.

 

I could bypass the Ducati sidestand safety but I would prefer an arrangement where it'll not run with the sidestand down and the bike in gear so I tolerate the sidestand safety.  At home I have a rear wheel stand handy so it's not a big deal.

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10 hours ago, Grum said:

Did the PO supply you with any service history? If not then yes do all of the above. Throw in a new set of spark plugs for good measure. Hopefully with all this done and your starting system sorted she'll be a great ride. Good luck.

Yes, I did write plugs down so that will happen too. Hopefully it will be ready by Friday or next week so will let you know how it went. 

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2 hours ago, JoelF said:

Hmm, I agree that it's dumb but my dead-stock 2001 Ducati Monster 900S cannot be started or run with the sidestand down and I am pretty sure it'll try to start in gear with the clutch out.

The former is absolutely intended from the factory, the latter might be my clutch switch if it ever had one.  I cannot warm up the bike on the sidestand due to this arrangement.

 

An even worse situation, some Ducatis came with spring loaded auto-retracting sidestands.

 

I could bypass the Ducati sidestand safety but I would prefer an arrangement where it'll not run with the sidestand down and the bike in gear so I tolerate the sidestand safety.  At home I have a rear wheel stand handy so it's not a big deal.

Hi JoelF.

Agree there are different starting systems and your Ducati is one, but we are talking about a 5gen VFR. All 5, 6, 7, and 8 gens allow you to start in neutral Sidestand down or up, and in gear Sidestand up clutch in, as per the Start System Diagram above. At least that's the way it is for Australian models, can't understand there would be any difference in the starting safety logic between countries! 

Cheers:beer:

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