Ehonda Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Hi all, read a few somewhat related topics but can't find an answer, I've been fixing up a 93 750 that was running perfectly from when I got it 3 months ago until 3 days ago. I had swapped the tail for a 2009 Ninja and hadn't bolted down the rectifier and an earth wire that looks to go to the rectifier wasn't returned to a ground. Also took both side engine covers off for painting. Bike won't start now, it struggles even with a truck battery or running car jumping it, left it for nearly 30min to charge and got maybe 2 revolutions. After this I remembered the earth wire and read about the rectifier being bolted down, rectified these to no avail (new to bike mods, never heard of one before). The starter relay looks fine. Its plug and rectifier plug are ok. I've wasted about 6 hours trying to work out the problem, everything else kinda works (indicators light up dim but don't flash (led), tail/stoplight fine, horn etc). Also changed the front headlight to an eBay generic Streetfighter one, and the gauges to Suzuki GS500. Have I wrecked the rectifier? I never smelled any smoke, and it didn't slowly get worse like the other threads have mentioned, it was straight to struggle town. Battery is new, and have two of them, makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mk2davis Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 It sounds to me like you have a bad connection somewhere. Because it sounds like you may have one or two grounds that are questionable, have you tried with the jumper cable lead connected to the frame instead of to the battery? If everything is low on electricity, I would start looking at the battery leads. RR's are not necessary for the bike to run, at least for a while, so unless there is a short within the RR (in which I would expect it to get very hot), the RR is not preventing the bike from running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 +1 check all your ground and if you install new ground make sure there metal to metal contact. Not metal to painted surface . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr350 Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 Would also try jumping positive direct to the starter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 I love electrical troubleshooting. Did it on multimillion dollar weapon systems for years. If you were closer, I'd help in person. Do you have a good multimeter? Since you say the lights are dim, that makes me think 2 things (are they dim even when hooked up to truck battery?): 1. Bad connection from battery or to ground. One of the main connections if not only the starter has trouble. If the voltage drops too low, you might not have enough power to charge the ignition coils to make spark jump across the plugs. - Is your main fuse box etc under the seat like on a 5th gen? Something may have jiggled loose or a fuse isn't making proper contact with both sides. - With the key switched on clamp the ground lead to the battery (-) terminal and work your way, probing voltage at each connection, to the starter solenoid 2. Resistive (not direct) short, i.e. your battery is constantly discharging somewhere it shouldn't be (worn insulation, bolt pinching a wire, etc...). This may occur all the time, or only when the key is switched to the on position. To determine this, it would be helpful to know how much current a healthy bike draws from the battery with key on and engine off. You would place an ammeter (or multimeter set to amps) in series between the battery positive terminal and the terminal connection (the wire that screws onto the battery) - WARNING - Do not try to start the bike with the meter in series unless you have a seriously heavy duty meter. Most hobbyist grade meters cannot handle the amount of current needed to run a starter. You will probably blow the fuse protecting the meter, or toast the meter if it doesn't have a fuse. - Depending on the current capacity of the meter, you may want to start out probing individual circuits. Simply pull the fuse for a given circuit from the fuse box, connect the red (+) lead of the meter to the "hot" side of the fuse connection, connect the black (-) lead to the other side, read measurement. If you find any circuits with suspiciously high readings (very near, but not exceeding the fuse rating), you may have to further troubleshoot. Another quick check you can do: Pull the fuses for all non-essential circuits and try to start. This may quickly narrow down the amount of troubleshooting you have to do. I like VFR350's suggestion too, however the bike may still run poorly if the ignition coils are not getting the power they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr350 Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 Thanks MadScientist, my thought was to just see if it will turn over at normal speed. A cracked spade connector still may have a bit o contact. And you said eveything else kinda lights up/work maybe try and bump start it. But first I might jump back further and make sure some liquid hasn't fill the cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 That is true too, there could be added friction somewhere in the system. It is kinda difficult to figure out the root cause without hearing/seeing it. A few other things might help us/you figure out the problem - How long has the engine sat since it last ran normally? While it doesn't directly effect the starter, how old is the gas? This might give you issues after you get the starter/engine spinning. Maybe take a look over the wiring harness for rodent damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehonda Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I copy pasted this out of my notes from this afternoon, sorry for the summary -Battery charged 13.4 jumper, 12.7 alone, no diff -Try start with car jumper no diff -Won't turn unless kick stand up -Lights ok, blinkerswitch relay won't work + blinkers dim+ taillight parker inop unless all lights connected -tried isolating starter, no diff. -isolating starter off relay bypass cables, heavy arcing and got hot quick Battery back to 12.7, no diff -Clutch in start disconnected, no diff either way -checked fuses, all ok -cylinders dry -now will try starting with side stand down, still struggling -I've tucked all wires inside the frame and under the fuel tank/ front of airbox also Took it for a ride a week ago, went like the clappers, started immediately cold no choke, no splutter, no smoke, perfect. How many earths has it got? I traced and cleaned battery ground cable, it's fine. Just tried bump start 2nd gear, even timed with starter switch to assist, nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr350 Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 can you be more desciptive ie still struggling is that just a slow turn over or a lump (stroke) @ a time? isolated starter, heavy arcing upon contact (i can see that) or during contact duration? Was it turning over any different? wont turn over except kickstand up, is that in neutral as well? clutch seem to disingage correctly? hows it spin over with no plugs? cold bump strarts are never fun tires slip more, if going that route can you get a second person for that 2 man bobsled? i had a stator come apart on a jetski wreaked havoc when i tried to start it (slow turn, mass destruction). mice made a mess of my ninja one night, blinkers and tail lights all mess up, but i have seen a single turn signal bulb mess with the blinker relay function. random i know, just trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehonda Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Didn't turn over any different with starter iso, clutch is fine, was always in neutral when trying to start. Turns over one lump, maybe two, that's it each time. Forgot to turn it over with all plugs out, did it with one plug out and was no different. I had the multimeter on the battery while holding the starter switch and the volts kept dropping steadily all the way to 2v, I let it go and it returned to 11.5, then I charged it with the car jumper again. Does that mean anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 Bad battery for sure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 Sounds like he tried to start it with a truck battery also? If not, try that, remove the other battery entirely from the circuit and try to start only with the truck battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 It's hard to jump start thru a bad battery . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr350 Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 a steady drop not sudden that does not trigger the relay to chatter is odd. even w a bad battery a charger on jump mode always has turned over or chattered fast for me. will an autoparts store load test the battery? i'd circle back to the plugs pulled and turn it over, may hear sometime you are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2014 True about jumping through a bad battery. I guess it isn't clear if the battery was removed from the circuit. If the battery has shorted cells, you will be wasting a pile of current there. Howevery, if you jumped directly to the starter from the truck battery without engaging the starter switch, the original battery should be isolated from the starter circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehonda Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 My local parts shops are only suppliers, they don't help with stuff like this, the most of the staff are no different to supermarket checkout chicks. I don't have a charger (yet), would there be my repercussions to taking the battery out of the bike, and directly hooking the jumper cables from my car to the bike? Truck battery is on 11.5v now as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 25, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2014 12v is 12v no matter what is providing it, the power drawn is determined by the load. So, you can use the truck battery without issues. I would drive the truck around to charge up the battery though. Be careful though - I assume you will use jumper cables to connect to the bike wires, so make sure the positive clamp does not come in contact with the frame/chassis or "bad things" will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehonda Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Here's a vid, jumping directly linked car jumper cables to bike battery cables with battery removed, relay just clicks, positive cable starts smoking if I hold the starter button more than 3 seconds, all other accessories still work fine, blinkers are a little retarded/ erratic though. trim.rHI81T.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfr350 Posted February 25, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2014 although i can't tell where the ground is in the clip, thinking pull the starter and see if it works or is fried. continuing to smoke wires is a bad road to go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted February 25, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted February 25, 2014 If you want to know if the starter relay has crapped the bed, leave everything like you have it, but disconnect the starter. Measure if you have 12v between the starter wire and the chassis when you thumb the starter button. If yes, that rules out the relay, which is really just a high-amperage switch controlled by the light duty switch on the handlebars. If the wiring on the bike is fine, nothing should start smoking with the starter disconnected, as no current will be flowing. If anything starts smoking, there is a major short somewhere on the bike - I would look in the starter circuit since the amount of current needed to make a wire of that gauge smoke is REALLY high. This amount of current _should_ blow the fuse on any other circuit, but the starter circuit is unfused (at least on 5th gens) so you can get this kind of current with a short in the starter circuit. If the relay checks out ok, and you want to be daring. Leave the negative cable where you have it and touch the positive cable directly to the starter connection. It will spark. The bike won't start because we aren't powering any other circuits, but will tell you if the starter itself is functioning. Alternatively, you can remove the starter and do this out of the bike - negative cable clips to starter body, positive to the connection. If the starter works fine, you have issues with the wiring on the bike (you may also have a bad battery too). Oh yeah, do what vfr350 recommended a while back - remove the spark plugs and try to turn the engine by turning the back wheel. It should turn fairly easily, remember that you are turning the whole driveline so there will be some force needed. The starter will pull a ton of current, and probably toast itself if it is trying to turn a seized engine. Alternatively, you can fly me to sunny Australia (it's summer there right?) and I will fix it. However, I'm guessing the round trip tickets from Chicago-O'hare to Sydney cost more than most of our bikes are worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ehonda Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 Problem solved, wasn't electrical, was an out of place washer sitting on the starter gear axle, sandwiching the starter gear when the engine cover was on, and thus locking the motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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