Abs Modulator Removal

[BiKenG]

Can I please start by asking that we don't get bogged down in a discussion about the value or otherwise of anti-lock braking systems. I am after some technical information about removing it from a VFR1200 and any electrical issues that may arise.

As far as I can se, there is a single electrical connector to the ABS modulator and it looks to me like the only 'output' that might be required is the VSP (speed) signal that goes to the ECU and the dash. My guess is that the ECU will show an error if it's not getting that signal and maybe the speedo won't work.

However, the modulator has 'inputs' for Front and Rear wheel speed sensors. Would it be possible to simply connect say, the Fr sensor to the VSP line to ECU and dash? So the ECU and dash would be directly reading the speed from the Front wheel - which is how most bikes used to be. Or use the Rr instead as I can't see it would make any difference?

The issue as I see it is whether the signals are compatible. Is the VSP signal exactly the same as the individual wheel speed signals, or does the modulator send a different type of signal as VSP?

I know some on here have played around with these connections in order to eliminate the power restriction in the lower gears etc and hoped that someone has looked into the signal types and might be able to offer an answer - or indeed suggest any other method of eliminating the modulator.

[Veefer800Canuck]

[vfrflanders]

I think it's going be very difficult to eliminate the ABS. Your dash is going to look like a Xmas tree with flashing MIL codes.

It's even possible you won't be able to start your motorcycle anymore (certain MIL codes will stop your engine from running)

Best way to test this - trial an error - see what happens if you remove the ABS connectors...

[BiKenG]

I think it's going be very difficult to eliminate the ABS. Your dash is going to look like a Xmas tree with flashing MIL codes.

It's even possible you won't be able to start your motorcycle anymore (certain MIL codes will stop your engine from running)

Best way to test this - trial an error - see what happens if you remove the ABS connectors...

I agree, the easiest way to find out is do as you say, but I do not yet have a VFR1200, so was hoping somebody who does have one might be able to confirm, having maybe already tried it?

However, as I mentioned earlier, the only output from the modulator seems to be this VSP signal. There's nothing else that I can see which might indicate to the rest of the bike that the modulator is missing. So if I can simply use the speed signal from one of the wheels, the problem is solved. But it's tricky trying to find this all out without the bike to test. Hence my plea for information.

[BiKenG]

Just had another look at the wiring diagram, at a higher resolution and can see that the VSP output to the ECU from the modulator is actually shown as RR VSP, so looks likely it's simply the Rear wheel speed sensor output, passed on to the ECU

However, there is also another connection I'd not noticed before It's a Br wire designated SC-S and is a direct connection between the modulator and the ECU. This could be important. Anyone any idea what this does? Is it perhaps a simple 12v on or off to let the ECU know all is well - or not?

[vfrflanders]

Maybe you're lucky, if you can live with a blinking ABS light on your dash.

ABS operation stops if you have a function failure.

If you you "create" a function failure, ABS operation will stop.

Check out "service manual" page 18-10.

[Veefer800Canuck]

Pull the fuse, remove the warning light?????

[vfrflanders]

Pull the fuse, remove the warning light?????

yep

Just had another look at the wiring diagram, at a higher resolution and can see that the VSP output to the ECU from the modulator is actually shown as RR VSP, so looks likely it's simply the Rear wheel speed sensor output, passed on to the ECU

However, there is also another connection I'd not noticed before It's a Br wire designated SC-S and is a direct connection between the modulator and the ECU. This could be important. Anyone any idea what this does? Is it perhaps a simple 12v on or off to let the ECU know all is well - or not?

No need for this.

For example, if you remove the solenoid for the ABS it will create a function failure for the ABS. The ABS stops working.

Remove the ABS light from your dash and everything will look "normal", but the ABS won't be active anymore.

This is the theory, but you have to test it!!!!!

With some wires you even can make an ABS on/off switch.

Good for track days...

[Volfy]

It's not that uncommon to remove ABS from cars and bikes. The old BMW servo brake system were notoriously hated, so some of the owners opted to remove the ABS and go back to "manual". Youtube has quite a few vid on this. See an example here:

I'm sure it could be done on the VFR1200. Now you do have another complication in the C-ABS system, so you will have to convert that to separate and isolated front and rear brake systems. On the electronics side, you will probably still have to leave the modules in place so as to pass the wheel speed sensor signals to and from the ECU. May be just plug up all the hydraulic ports. In the event that you manual brake hard enough to lock up the wheels, the ABS module will sense it and assume the system failed and light up the ABS light. Otherwise, in normal operations, as long as the wheel speed sensors are reporting normally, there should be no errors.

[BiKenG]

The idea is to remove ABS completely. The hydraulics will be re-arranged with manual control of the front and rear. No other intervention, no PCS or delay valves or any such nonsense, just brake lines connecting the Master cylinders and calipers and so unaffected by any system controls.

The ABS light on the dash won't blink as it's driven by the modulator which is not only the pump and servo etc, but it's also the electronic control box for the ABS. So removing it will prevent any possibility of ABS light warning. In truth, I wouldn't be using the stock dash and so there will be no ABS light at all. But in any case, once the entire modulator assembly is gone, there's nothing to create any warning or act in any untoward manner.

The only issue is how the main ECU will react to this and I don't think it's a major problem as it looks like there's only 2 connections FROM the modulator TO the ECU. The VSP looks like it won't be a problem if the Rr wheel sensor is just connected directly to the ECU. There's just the SC-S connection and according to the manual, when troubleshooting, this is connected to ground, so it looks like a simple signal, either ON or OFF. But was hoping someone might have previously looked into this. Hence my question.

This is a serious project and not messing around with stuff I don't understand. I've been riding bikes without ABS all my life so removing ABS from a bike is nothing scary. I'm not removing it for any misguided reasons of manly bravado, but simply that my project leaves no room for that huge lump, so it has to come off. My FireBlade project has no ABS, never had it in the first place. A bike without ABS is not scary. Brakes still work. In fact likely to carry on working long after electronic ABS systems have screwed up in some way. No, I'm not a fan of electronic rider aids, but in this case, it's just for purely practical reasons that I need to remove it as Honda did not offer the VFR1200 without ABS. If they did, I'd start with one of those.

So, anyone any more idea about the brown SC-S connection from modulator to ECU?

[Veefer800Canuck]

So what is this project that necessitates removing the ABS module to save space???

[crakerjac]

The idea is to remove ABS completely. The hydraulics will be re-arranged with manual control of the front and rear. No other intervention, no PCS or delay valves or any such nonsense, just brake lines connecting the Master cylinders and calipers and so unaffected by any system controls.

The ABS light on the dash won't blink as it's driven by the modulator which is not only the pump and servo etc, but it's also the electronic control box for the ABS. So removing it will prevent any possibility of ABS light warning. In truth, I wouldn't be using the stock dash and so there will be no ABS light at all. But in any case, once the entire modulator assembly is gone, there's nothing to create any warning or act in any untoward manner.

The only issue is how the main ECU will react to this and I don't think it's a major problem as it looks like there's only 2 connections FROM the modulator TO the ECU. The VSP looks like it won't be a problem if the Rr wheel sensor is just connected directly to the ECU. There's just the SC-S connection and according to the manual, when troubleshooting, this is connected to ground, so it looks like a simple signal, either ON or OFF. But was hoping someone might have previously looked into this. Hence my question.

This is a serious project and not messing around with stuff I don't understand. I've been riding bikes without ABS all my life so removing ABS from a bike is nothing scary. I'm not removing it for any misguided reasons of manly bravado, but simply that my project leaves no room for that huge lump, so it has to come off. My FireBlade project has no ABS, never had it in the first place. A bike without ABS is not scary. Brakes still work. In fact likely to carry on working long after electronic ABS systems have screwed up in some way. No, I'm not a fan of electronic rider aids, but in this case, it's just for purely practical reasons that I need to remove it as Honda did not offer the VFR1200 without ABS. If they did, I'd start with one of those.

So, anyone any more idea about the brown SC-S connection from modulator to ECU?

If you want to go through all that work, why not just re-locate the rear wheel sensor to the front wheel? No mucking with the ECU, you still get speedo readings, and the ABS will never kick in...

[2thdr]

It's interesting that in post #1 you made a plea not to enter into a discussion about the merits or demerits of the ABS system and everyone abided by your request. However in post #10 you proceed to do what you requested others not do. If it's such an issue for you, why not pick a different bike for your project?

[BiKenG]

So what is this project that necessitates removing the ABS module to save space???

I want to remove the fairings and make a naked bike. Such a great engine and handles well too, but I prefer a naked bike. I did it to a FireBlade which was very successful, but in the end I just want to get away from an in-line 4 engine and I like a challenge

It's interesting that in post #1 you made a plea not to enter into a discussion about the merits or demerits of the ABS system and everyone abided by your request. However in post #10 you proceed to do what you requested others not do. If it's such an issue for you, why not pick a different bike for your project?

Well it was more by way of explanation than starting a discussion about it. Sorry if it offended you.

I did pick a different bike. 2 years ago I decided to work with a FireBlade instead. But now I want to get back to a V4 and the VFR1200 is the ideal platform. I'm now just looking into the various issues that will have to be overcome, prior to actually getting a bike. So I was hoping someone had figured out what e.g. the SC-S connection is. But if no-one know, I'll just have to figure it out for myself.

[hvfrdave]

Why Oh why, it will be interesting to hear what your insurance company has to say.

[2thdr]

Why Oh why, it will be interesting to hear what your insurance company has to say.

Especially in the UK!

To the OP, no offense taken. I'm just curious about what you are doing and why you are doing it! But since you haven't really let that cat out of the bag, I would say it's probably none of my business. I hope you find what you are looking for. I know of no other place where there is more info available about the VFR line...

[BiKenG]

Why Oh why, it will be interesting to hear what your insurance company has to say.

Especially in the UK!

To the OP, no offense taken. I'm just curious about what you are doing and why you are doing it! But since you haven't really let that cat out of the bag, I would say it's probably none of my business. I hope you find what you are looking for. I know of no other place where there is more info available about the VFR line...

Insurance wasn't a problem for my FireBlade project, so shouldn't be any worse for this. I guess I'll find out.

I thought I'd explained what I was doing. I'm not sure why you claim I "haven't really let that cat out of the bag". It's no secret - someone asked and I explained. I'm happy to discuss it till the cows come home. What do you want to know?

This is what I did with the 'Blade:-

http://www.dropbox.com/sh/3ncaz56xe7stlcg/pcP3FeWrbq

[hvfrdave]

Why Oh why, it will be interesting to hear what your insurance company has to say.

Especially in the UK!

To the OP, no offense taken. I'm just curious about what you are doing and why you are doing it! But since you haven't really let that cat out of the bag, I would say it's probably none of my business. I hope you find what you are looking for. I know of no other place where there is more info available about the VFR line...

Insurance wasn't a problem for my FireBlade project, so shouldn't be any worse for this. I guess I'll find out.

I thought I'd explained what I was doing. I'm not sure why you claim I "haven't really let that cat out of the bag".

It's no secret - someone asked and I explained. I'm happy to discuss it till the cows come home. What do you want to know?

This is what I did with the 'Blade:-

http://www.dropbox.com/sh/3ncaz56xe7stlcg/pcP3FeWrbqOP you say you have not purchased one as yet, The standard brakes on the VFR1200 are some of the best brakes I have ever come across on a standard production bike, they are awesome brakes. The Fireblade is a lot lighter motorcycle than the VFR1200, and I have never found a problem with the ABS, in fact riding on some of our damp and greasy roads, in the Autumn and Winter months, I am glad I have got the ABS, just in case, because you could lock the front brakes quite easily without it. I just hope you don't regret it.

[DangerousDave]

OP you say you have not purchased one as yet, The standard brakes on the VFR1200 are some of the best brakes I have ever come across on a standard production bike, they are awesome brakes. The Fireblade is a lot lighter motorcycle than the VFR1200, and I have never found a problem with the ABS, in fact riding on some of our damp and greasy roads, in the Autumn and Winter months, I am glad I have got the ABS, just in case, because you could lock the front brakes quite easily without it. I just hope you don't regret it.

The VFR12 does have fantastic brakes...but not because of the ABS. The ABS is just along for the ride until something goes awry. Disabling the ABS wouldn't make the brakes any less powerful...they just wouldn't be Anti-lock. I've ridden for decades without ABS and have always relied on my own braking skills without issue. I've crashed more than a time or two, but under none of those circumstances would ABS have saved it. Based on his blade pics, I daresay an ABS actuator would just look unsightly once he made a streetfighter out of it. This project would also allow him to find one for pennies that's been thrown down the road, since he doesn't care much about the front plastics. I'm not really a streetfighter guy myself, but they are the ultimate hooligan bikes. There's the problem for me, as I'm enough of a hooligan without any additional encouragement.

So have we determined where the engine ecm gets it's wheel speed signal from??

[Volfy]

Front and rear speed sensors go into the ABS module, which then relays the rear sensor signal onto both the instrument panel and ECU. Not sure if the ABS filters the pulse train coming from the rear sensor. If you have an oscilloscope with A-B channels, you can easily find that out. The wheel speed sensors are most likely hall effect sensors that need to be driven with a voltage to get the pulse signal back. You probably could rig it up to send that pulse signal into the ECU directly and bypass the ABS module, but you need to know how to drive the sensor properly.

The SCS signal comes out of the ABS module and is connected to both the ECU and the DLC (4position) red terminal under the seat. There is a factory SCS connector (070PZ-ZY30100) that can be used to retrieve fault code by shorting two of the terminals. I dunno if the fault code is stored in the ECU or in the ABS module. That's all I know.

Really though, if you are gonna use an aftermarket speedometer/tach, you probably won't have the means to display ECU fault codes anyhow, so I wouldn't worry too much about the SCS line to the ABS module, other than you should leave it connected between the ECU and DLC connector. You can test this out by simply disconnect the SCS line to the ABS module and fo test drive to see what happens. If everything works just fine, with may be a flashing idiot light on the dash, then no problem.

Personally, if I have a VFR1200 and I want a streetfighter... I'd go get me a real streetfighter. Which, of course, I did.

[keef]

I've had a couple of real streetfighters in my time...

Why not do a vmax instead of the big vfr? Still a V4, but it has 200hp and no ABS.

[BiKenG]

(Dangerous) Dave's got the right idea. The modulator is a huge lump under the RH fairing, stuck on the outside of the frame. With the fairing off it would be totally exposed and look dreadful. I am not a fan of such electronics anyway and have been riding big powerful bikes without ABS for 40 years, so the simple solution is to remove the entire ABS gubbins. I do find it rather sad the horror this obviously engenders in the minds of so many riders, but that's another issue.

Streetfighter doesn't mean hooligan to me. In fact one of the reasons for switching to naked bikes is to slow down. Fully faired bikes (like the 'Blade and the VFR) just encourage one to ride quickly as the lack of wind makes it too easy and if it's a real sports bike, you need the wind pressure to take the weight off the wrists. The reality is that with the addition of a small screen, an otherwise naked bike can be made suitable for all day riding at e.g. 80-90 mph, whereas something like a 'Blade only makes sense above 100 mph and that's getting into 'going to jail' territory nowadays in the UK. Beside which, an upright riding position is so much more comfortable. I even find a std VFR1200 has handlebars that are too low for me now. I'm just not interested in being uncomfortable on a bike any more. So I change them to suit what I want. Seems eminently sensible to me.

I don't expect everyone to want the same things I do, we all want/need different things. The bike that would suit my requirements at this time is a naked VFR1200. Naked for the reasons explained above and based on a VFR1200 for the very reasons you others are here as you obviously understand the qualities of that bike. I think Honda should make one as it seems a gap in their current philosophy which is to take a single bike and make 3 different variants. Fully faired, Adventure style and also naked version. They've done the first 2, why not the third? Save me having to make my own. But having said that, I like ending up with something unique.

In any case, my aim would be to end up with a bike that looks like it just rolled off a Honda production line, by using parts from other Honda models. I think I was successful with my FireFighter project and I think I can be the same with this new eVo4 project.

Since the original dash of the VFR cannot really be massaged into anything suitable for such a naked bike (unlike that of the latest 'Blade which was ideal), my intention is to use a Dash 2 by Race Technology. It has everything I need and again I can arrange for the iPhone mount alongside as that's my 'built-in navigation' system, as well as music etc if I so desire. For long trips around Europe it's a brilliant setup.

But, that SCS line. It may well be that its ONLY function is for when troubleshooting and with the modulator disconnected there'll be no warnings from the ECU. I guess this is something I will find out.

I will also need to figure out how the ECU communicates the gear position to the dash as it seems to use the TXD line to tell the dash these things. This is a surprise to me as I recall previously finding that there was a single line between ECU and dash that was used just for this function with different voltages relating to each gear selected. But I cannot now see that, so my memory is obviously flawed.

Plan is to look for bike in the early part of next year, but plans can change...

If anyone knows of a crash damaged VFR1200 - let me know.

I've had a couple of real streetfighters in my time...

Why not do a vmax instead of the big vfr? Still a V4, but it has 200hp and no ABS.

Not a bad idea, but early VMax is too limited by its chassis and the latest one is just too big and heavy, way too expensive and I think it's great as it is. I wouldn't know how to go about improving it. Also, I'm more of a Honda guy. I know and understand Hondas (I used to work for Honda UK) and still tend to look to Honda first.

[hvfrdave]

OP you say you have not purchased one as yet, The standard brakes on the VFR1200 are some of the best brakes I have ever come across on a standard production bike, they are awesome brakes. The Fireblade is a lot lighter motorcycle than the VFR1200, and I have never found a problem with the ABS, in fact riding on some of our damp and greasy roads, in the Autumn and Winter months, I am glad I have got the ABS, just in case, because you could lock the front brakes quite easily without it. I just hope you don't regret it.

The VFR12 does have fantastic brakes...but not because of the ABS. The ABS is just along for the ride until something goes awry. Disabling the ABS wouldn't make the brakes any less powerful...they just wouldn't be Anti-lock. I've ridden for decades without ABS and have always relied on my own braking skills without issue. I've crashed more than a time or two, but under none of those circumstances would ABS have saved it. Based on his blade pics, I daresay an ABS actuator would just look unsightly once he made a streetfighter out of it. This project would also allow him to find one for pennies that's been thrown down the road, since he doesn't care much about the front plastics. I'm not really a streetfighter guy myself, but they are the ultimate hooligan bikes. There's the problem for me, as I'm enough of a hooligan without any additional encouragement.

So have we determined where the engine ecm gets it's wheel speed signal from??

I am well aware that the ABS , has nothing to do with how good the brakes are on the VFR1200, in the dry on a good road surface, but I was talking about the wet and greasy roads, that's a totally different matter altogether, the VFR1200 is a very heavy motorcycle, and would be very easy to lock the front brakes, in them conditions. As regards to the insurance, on the Fireblade, the bike comes as non ABS, or you can buy the Fireblade with ABS, the VFR1200 does not come with that option, its ABS only, that's why I would check with the insurance company, and if they say its ok to disconnect the ABS make sure you get it in writing, stamped and dated.

[Volfy]

FWIW, I think a naked conversion is a cool project. I'd like to keep up with your progress if you are so inclined to post pics and stories along the way.

Naked bikes make a lot of sense in Europe and other parts of the world, but not quite as popular here in North America. For good or for bad, you can't go anywhere here without getting on the freeway, so wind protection is a national tradition as much as rumbling V8. I must admit, as much as I like naked bikes and thoroughly enjoy mine, there are days - like this 40degF morning - where I would very much hesitate to grab the Speed Triple key.

Instead of a naked version of the VFR1200, I really think Honda should release the VFR1200T touring version first, so they can finally retire the ST1300. They need that like beach boys need Malibu.

Then... it wouldn't be a bad idea to do a naked or power cruiser version, along the lines of the Diavel, which has been a big seller for Ducati. Revive the old Magna V65 name with it.

About the gear position info from ECU to dash, yes, it is via the digital communication line. If you got enough spare time, you can try to hack into the byte stream and may be figure out the comms protocol, but then you still have to convert that into a display. Honestly, that's really trying too hard for a gear position indicator.

If you can live without ABS, you can live without GP display.

[BiKenG]

Over the (recent) years of having a GPI on a bike, I now don't like to not have one. I know it's not essential, but it is very useful. Luckily, one never has to be without as it is simple to add on one of the several available devices that simply look at speed and rpm and compute the current gear. The Dash 2 can do that or accept specific inputs from a 'sensor' such as the VFR has on the gearbox. The later is preferable since it really does KNOW what gear you are in, whereas the former is unable to determine the selected gear if the clutch is pulled in etc. I may be able to simply hook up the Dash2 to the actual sensor and forget about what the ECU is sending.

As for whether one likes naked bikes or not, it is very much a matter of personal taste, as is a preference for any particular style of bike. I do not commute by motorcycle and only ride for pleasure which means I no longer bother to ride in winter. Been there, done that and now would prefer to take the car rather than freeze my extremities. So that eliminates the requirement for a fairing used as weather protection. The only other benefit of a fairing is for aerodynamic purposes and let's be honest, that's pretty irrelevant on the road. I still love the look of sports bikes (and still have my SP-2 - that's RC51 in the US), but I no longer have any desire to ride it. The thought of having to scrunch up into an uncomfortable position to get on it leaves me cold. Particularly since I have realised that a good naked bike is way more comfortable and at least as fast, yet less likely to get me sent to jail. I'm not a hooligan on a bike, but a modern true sports bike ('Blade, R1 etc) almost demands that you ride it fast, if only to relieve the pain in your wrists.

But I digress. Yes, bike style is very much personal taste and for me now, naked is best - especially for bikes