ShipFixer

Do you have speed bleeders? Non-ABS here, but the SMC was kind of tricky to get refilled. If I remember correctly what I did, I used a clamp to hold the SMC activated (squeezing the caliper up to the fork leg), pushed down on the brake pedal, then released the clamp to let the SMC take in fluid from the rear circuit. I want to say doing that a few times got fluid moving through it and working once I got it down. If I did not have speed bleeders installed, I think it would be a lot tougher to do the SMC from dry by myself. I tried a vacuum bleeder on the SMC, but it really doesn't do anything. You have to do some variation of the bleed procedure in the FAQs here, or fake it like I did with trigger clamps and speed bleeders 🙃

Yep, it does. Answer is...there's no other way to close that loop I can think of. Till I learned about the key switch sequence I thought it was just the limitations of early ECUs and whatnot. Like I have seen some examples where the steps in an older engine controller are "big" so things suddenly and noticeably change over a few hundred RPM. That's sort of what the VFR always felt like to me when it was stepping the fuel up and down at cruise and I wrote it off as the limits of the day. And some people notice it, and some people don't, so it was also probably down to the tolerances of each bike and whatever the sensitivity of that rider is. Now what I think is the behavior between O2 sensors active or not is so arbitrarily close, it's probably really an open loop algorithm in implementation if not outright design, and Honda just tipped the scales overall towards emissions and efficiency. We know the manufacturers have always done this with lean mixtures at cruise RPMs to meet mandates, this is just like Honda went the extra mile when they didn't have to and it's super annoying. They might have even had O2 eliminators in mind, and wanted to do things to protect the longevity of the cat, etc.

There is a way to see what your bike is like without the closed loop mode with the O2 sensors, discovered by that other forum. Turn ignition key "ON" and then kill switch "ON." Let pump prime (whining noise). Turn ignition "OFF." Turn ignition "ON" and hit starter before the whining noise and dash light/pattern ends. For one reason or another, this puts the bike in a completely open loop mode without the O2 sensors, riding to a fixed map. Haven't ridden a 5th gen enough to know if it's noticeable, but a shitty thing about the 6th gen is there is clearly open loop logic on top of the closed loop control, where even with eliminators it will still dial back mixture in a noticeable way. Whether the key/switch dance is an intentional bypass built in by Honda, or a flaw that faults out that logic, we don't know. But it works.

I would check the over/under on the cost of a new ECU and making it work to include using the catless 98/99 headers or VFRD headers, vs. just buying a Rapid Bike Racing and fixing and upgrading it all at the same time.

If you’ve already seen a lot of the coast and this is by car, I would consider this. Day trip into Big Sur from SF/Santa Cruz/Monterey, then inland from SF once you check out Napa Valley and the usuals. Drive through Yosemite National Park from the west side to the east, and expect to take a day taking it in. Spend a day in Mammoth Lakes, and/or drive north to Lake Tahoe to check it out. Drive down the back side of the Sierra Nevadas, or back through to the coast to go down through Big Sur.

Yeah but the RBR also skips all those manual steps, or the need for dyno testing... 🙃

I had an exhaust shop expand my Delkevic pipe to match the VFRD header. I gave them $20, it took them five seconds and they didn't want anything for it. It's way easier for them than any of the home-expanders. The one I picked up gave up before the Delkevic pipe did.

😐

Suzuki GSX-S1000GT maybe. It is VFR-ish and even a bit lighter, on par with the 8th gen. More power, but lots of little things I am not a fan of like the high mount bar instead of riser clip ons, cheap looking front end, etc. Stock bar position looks a bit like a VFR with helibars too. I had them, went back to stock...I like being able to put more weight on the front end without getting too CBR-ish. Plus I've liked the looks of my bike ever since it came out. There is nothing about the Suzuki or its close competitors at Kawasaki that really say anything to me. I'd come to like it, but not like my VFR. All this is why I'm much more likely to get something completely different like an Africa Twin than ever replace my VFR...

Yeah my interest in something bigger is limited. Riding more upright on an ST or whatever is weird and cruiserish. Wish more people liked this kind of bike so there were more options. Or at least the business case to have done more with the 8th gen. It does often occur to me that the modern ~900-1100cc parallel twins from Honda are pretty close in power and torque curves and could be made into something like a VFR that doesn't suck while isn't as expensive for them to produce as a Euro compliant V-4. Like if my VFR died and I wanted something new, they could be making something reasonably equivalent. But instead we're getting...well, nothing like that 🤦‍♂️ 8th gen is the last we will see for a long, long while...

In those scenarios I'm just on and off the clutch more probably, so don't notice. I think it's probable that's what the engine braking adjustment in RBR should do, but the translation in both the GUI and the manual leave a lot to be desired so I haven't messed with it. Somewhere between "reduce engine braking" and "slipper clutch" is where your answer lies if you want it to ride differently right around zero throttle. The other thing to look through is how the throttle bodies and starter valves in VFRs interact. Googling this and the other forums will give you lots of information on things that will affect your off-idle throttle behavior. Some in the manual, some tribal lore. Unlike some other things, closed throttle = closed throttle bodies, and the starter valves are providing the air at between zero and a few percent throttle. Some people attribute the abrupt nature of on and off throttle behavior in the VFR to that "fully closed" position in the butterflies. You will also see some discussions of re-balancing the starter valves from zeroed out balance across all four, to something like the 5th gen with 10 or 20mm difference Mg across different ones. Some people believe doing that improved their off-throttle behavior so they balance theirs that way. I like mine balanced as per the manual, I think the bike is overall smoother that way. I've balanced them the other way(s) and it wasn't bad, just not better across RPM range, etc. I don't discount the opinions of people specifically looking for the same thing you are and saying it helped them, though.

I hope to never have to do whatever is being discussed here 🤣

One observation that might help - when I look at my map its about what I think it should be. Plusses in the mid range and mid throttle region and then some minuses at high RPM and high throttle. It's smoothing rather than just adding everywhere. There are some discussions on FB where people are trying to essentially push the map "up" to get more something. Like accept the changes and open the aperture, repeat. This will get you past the recommended +/- quickly and probably just dump fuel, if that. Unless you are seriously modding, the RBR is probably already giving you a really good answer and I would not overthink it. I have a full exhaust, new plugs, and fresh injectors and I have left mine alone other than checking on it. OBTW get your injectors cleaned if you haven't. Worth it!

1.) I haven't looked in a while, but ignition timing is automatically tuned in advancement just like fueling. There is a "base map" for the 6th gen and then it auto tunes off that +/- constantly. The 6th gen has more ignition advance timing range than the 5th gen but there is a limit in the bike (forget, someone else knows what it is though). "Probably" more true to say it's already advancing as much as it can within what it sees from the stock narrow band sensors. I don't remember seeing my ignition map advanced all the way up to either the software limit or the bike limit. You can adjust the limit just like you can shift the fuel map limit beyond +/-8 but it doesn't seem necessary. Without wideband sensors really unlikely to be useful to shoot in the dark here. 2.). Last time I checked no. The software for your PC is regularly updated though. Seems like every time I turn that laptop on. 3.) If you mean full closed vs just closing it a bit, then no, you are slamming the butterfly valves closed and "see starter valve discussion" applies. If you just mean there is more engine braking than you would like, then maybe? User experience gets hard because all of us will have different observations in proprioception. Some people really can't stand the surge/lag in the stock ECU for emissions at cruise and love that the RBR finally fixes it. Then a large number of people don't notice it at all and think "How Honda intended it" is perfection or something. I can tell you if I shut my throttle a lot and open it with the engine clutched in, yeah, its rough. But I also just don't do it that often and do use engine braking plenty without problems. Whether that's 20 years of VFR adaptation on my part or a problem...dunno. Zero difference before and after RBR on that front if that's what you're really asking. Have not played with engine braking functions but answer is "maybe," someone else has. I didnt find the settings in the software easy to understand at all. A slipper clutch may also be the thing?

Yikes...

Hyperpro spring kit by itself will get both ends pretty close to "really good" for not much money. I did that before a full rear shock and RaceTech valves up front and it was really good. Especially if you full-service the forks at the same time.

The RBR is one of the most "noticeable" upgrades I've ever done, right up there with getting correct springs the first time. Headers open up the top end with it, but the RBR you will notice all day long at low RPM and midrange. And getting rid of bad closed loop behavior is the best!

Finally installed another thing I got from @SEBSPEED: I also installed a new black plastic ignition ring (covered in Cerakote trim wipes), and wet sanded and polished the ignition switch face while I had it all apart. Twenty years of key scratches gone! Got a new key ring with a soft lanyard so I can hang my fobs and whatnot over the front, and hopefully prevent future damage. But the Cerakote should be waaaaay more resilient, I tried to lightly scratch the underside with metal and its not trivially easy like the original silver paint over aluminum.

Something to look at for future installers. I rode ~100 miles yesterday and the brakes were great. But I noticed brake fluid weeping very slightly out of the left front flare nut, again. This is from the left caliper Secondary Master Cylinder to everything aft, so it is not going to pop tall under lever pressure when you test things, unless you put a clamp on the SMC I suppose. It's also not something you will obviously feel in the brakes, like any level of leak in the front lever to caliper lines. Anyway, you can reach this junction to get a turn on it with a 14mm crows foot on the Galfer nut, and a 10mm flare nut wrench on the flare nut. I loosened the frame clamp, and used the 14mm on my socket wrench to really turn it: Now to ride again and see!

They were backed out no more than 1/8 of an inch and the stator has a perch in the middle, so I don't think there was contact. Didnt see any signs of contact either. Just rattling against the alternator cover as the magnets pulled it around. I should have checked this first as it was the thing I last touched. Same time, glad this is all it was as any other culprit past CCT is an ugly one.. Definitely more torque than I used before (I was concerned about small bolts in aluminum, and torquing with the case in the other hand is kinda awkward) with my small torque wrench, so not likely to happen again.

I think I undertorqued them. I was worried about small bolts, etc. But by "loose" I mean all four bolts were backed out 👀 Which also correlated to "five miles later" and "electrical demand locks it in place." Going to replace the rear one when it arrives, but fwiw the new one and the two existing ones feel exactly the same. Not sticky, not weak, etc. I am considering calculating spring force on a new one when it arrives. Alloy difference in steel springs is almost trivial, so would be a physical difference if they are in fact different to counteract things like creep deformation, etc.

Loose stator is the final answer. Like not a little loose or a bolt torque imbalance either. Re-torque and try again...

Auto stethoscope says likely source is behind the alternator cover. Sigh. Pretty sure everything in there is torqued properly. Something moves and rattles metal to metal at idle and doesn't move when the brights are on. Electric load is more relevant than RPM. Body work coming back off...

No longer think its the CCTs. It's something around the alternator maybe. What...I don't know. Sound goes away when the brights are on so it could be the bolts on the stator came loose (unlikely), the new Oberon clutch slave isn't working out (also unlikely)...dunno. Clutch basket maybe. IMG_0131.MOV