BiKenG Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 I'll try Mohawk's idea (and some others) and report back here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Looking at this some more, here's some additional observations:- The tweeting, twittering that can be heard after the fuel pump has shut off is NOT fuel leaking through a valve. It is the TBW servo motor, although why the motor makes this noise I've no idea. But other VFR1200s make the same noise, so it's unlikely anything to do with my idle speed problem. If while the engine idles (too fast of course) I :- - open the twistgrip a very little, the engine revs rise a lot more with very little movement of the butterflies, indicating that the small opening I can see while it's idling would be sufficient to cause the high idle speed. - force (carefully) the butterflies to close more, the engine slows down. I'm convinced that if they were completely shut, idle speed would be normal. So I'm back to trying to figure out why the butterflies are slightly open when the engine should be idling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 Mohawk's idea hasn't changed anything. Strangely, if the ignition is turned off while the throttle is open, the butterflies stay open. They don't close by themselves when power is removed. This may be part of the problem if the butterflies are somehow too stiff, but for this test, when battery is re-connected and ignition turned on again, it all resets to the exact same set up as before. The butterfly mechanism and links etc are never at the closed stop. There's an adjustable screw for each butterfly to set the bottom stop. They are white painted and not to be altered, but even with everything off, none of them are actually in contact with the mechanism. So whatever is setting that fully closed position, it's not those adjusting screws. So the butterflies are NEVER at the closed position set by the adjusting screws and when the ignition is turned on, they open more. Ignition off and they drop back,, but not all the way to those screws. So what's the point of those screws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 25, 2014 Author Share Posted September 25, 2014 I have also noticed what looks like the idle air bleed. For each intake body, there's an air passage that runs from the air box and into the intake below the butterflies. I can't see that it can be anything except the idle air bleed, but the really interesting thing is that each of these has an adjusting screw. Not tried to adjust them, but they look like they can be turned with a screwdriver. I like this idea as the manufacturers always set the idle speed too high for my liking, so the idea of being able to actually adjust it is rather appealing. The downside is that there's 4 screws, one for each intake and adjusting them all 'in sync' could be tricky without doing it on a flow bench, but surely not impossible. It must be possible to mark the current position so you could always go back to it. Anyway, just thought that was interesting, even though not a solution to my problem which concerns the butterflies being open when they shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Well I can report that the high idling speed has been fixed. Yay! Water had got in to the throttle servo gearbox and TP sensor which are all under the black plastic cover on the LHS of the throttle bodies. There's white paint on some of the screws, but the cover had to come off so I ignored it. Where the servo motor's gear meshed with the reduction idler (between servo and throttle shaft) at around idle speed (and engine off) the servo's gear had rusted. Even though the idler is plastic, there was sufficient build-up of rust to jam the 2 gears at that position. Not completely, obviously as the servo was capable of driving them past that point, but it obviously did interfere with return just by the return spring. After a lot of tidying up of the servo gear, with a needle file, I was able to re-assemble everything and the butterflies now easily return fully closed when you manually open them and let go. It now idles at about 1600 rpm when cold and when warm that drops to about 1100 rpm which is spot on. Wonderful. Thanks for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 did it cure take clutch thing too ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveVXR8 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Is that where the idle should be? Seems a touch fast and I'm sure mine doesn't idle that high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted September 29, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted September 29, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 29, 2014 Author Share Posted September 29, 2014 did it cure take clutch thing too ?? The clutch/rpm issue appears to be a normal feature of many modern Hondas. Now tickover/idle is back to normal, I haven't I noticed the clutch causing an rpm change. I suspect it is only apparent at higher rpm. Is that where the idle should be? Seems a touch fast and I'm sure mine doesn't idle that high. I'm pretty sure those are the standard values. Being a V4, it doesn't seem even that fast, but I may have a look at reducing it further sometime. There's an air bleed screw in each throttle body that I'm pretty sure will control it, but you'd need to use flow meters to ensure all cylinders had the same flow, or the idle would be rough. As I said, sometime in the future, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworth Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 did it cure take clutch thing too ?? The clutch/rpm issue appears to be a normal feature of many modern Hondas. Now tickover/idle is back to normal, I haven't I noticed the clutch causing an rpm change. I suspect it is only apparent at higher rpm. It is NOT a normal feature of any Honda or any other manufacturer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 idle speed of the VFR1200F is 1,150 +- 100 rpm mine does not do anything like you described with the clutch release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 Well, we have a difference of opinion here as some are saying most (all?) bikes do it and some say no bikes do it. However, as I said (possibly in the thread dedicated to this issue) it is a timing issue, not throttle (otherwise how could they do it on non TBW bikes) and I suspect it is a change of mapping that means the timing advances more rapidly. So at normal tickover/idle speed, there is NO actual change, but as the revs increase, the timing advances faster when in gear and clutch engaged which means when the engine is already spinning fast enough to mean the timing would be different, then it will be like a switch with the revs rising and falling as the clutch is pulled in and out. In fact, disconnect the clutch switch and it occurs as soon as you put it in gear. So what I'm saying is that for a normally running bike, you would NOT notice anything. But if it's idling above whatever the threshold is (which is obviously lower than 3K) then you will notice an rpm shift. It's hard to second guess the reasons for doing this, but I doubt it would be to raise rpm as a rider aid when taking off, since there is no rise for a bike running correctly. Whatever, it would appear that it is common practice to now alter the timing curve between being driven and idling, but under normal circumstances, the rider would not be aware of this. However, I have no definitive information on this, so much of the above is speculation, but too many people have stated this DOES happen (I certainly saw it) to dismiss it totally as untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworth Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 You seem to have created a scenario that simply doesn't exist. there is no connection between the clutch switch and anything that could control how the engine runs. It is simply a starter circuit lock-out. This is not an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 ... there is no connection between the clutch switch and anything that could control how the engine runs. It is simply a starter circuit lock-out. This is not an opinion. Yes it is. So why does the clutch switch also connect to the ECU? In the old days, you would have been right, but now the ECU is looking at the clutch switch and of course it also knows when the bike is in gear and those are certainly not simply opinions but facts gleaned from studying the wiring diagram, Quite what the ECU does with that info is indeed speculation, but based on the fact that when my bike was idling at 3K rpm, putting it in gear and letting the clutch in and out would change engine speed by up to about 500 rpm (not by moving the throttle butterflies either so therefore it MUST be timing). If you are implying this did not occur, then you are calling me a liar. I am not the only person to have noticed this and there have been responses to this very forum agreeing that it does happen. Are you suggesting they are liars also? Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In any case, I suggest you take this argument to the thread that I specifically started about this very topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted September 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted September 30, 2014 Your engaging the transmission also but the stater circuit no affect . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworth Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 ... there is no connection between the clutch switch and anything that could control how the engine runs. It is simply a starter circuit lock-out. This is not an opinion. Yes it is. So why does the clutch switch also connect to the ECU? In the old days, you would have been right, but now the ECU is looking at the clutch switch and of course it also knows when the bike is in gear and those are certainly not simply opinions but facts gleaned from studying the wiring diagram,snip My factory wiring diagram shows the clutch switch as a simple single pole switch closing the circuit to the starter relay, nothing more. You're overthinking this way too far. For something like a clutch switch to have an effect on things it has nothing to do with points to a bad ground or connection somewhere on the bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted September 30, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted September 30, 2014 Sorry BiKenG, I agree with Tamworth, I also have the Honda workshop manual, and Tamworth is 100% correct. I hope you find the problem anyway, good luck. :smile2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Well I'm sorry to have to point this out, but you guys are reading the wiring diagram incorrectly. Look again. I know what I saw, and under those circumstances, the revs would increase/decrease with the operation of the clutch switch. I am certainly not a liar and I take exception to the insinuation that that is your conclusion. As I also stated, there are MANY others who have witnessed the exact same effect and I suspect they are not lying either. To be honest, I really couldn't give a damn about the clutch issue. I stated a LONG time ago that it is NOT a problem and in fact my bike now has NO problem. So forget all the "bike's been drowned, it will have lots of problems" rhetoric. The bike is now sorted, it is running perfectly and I do NOT anticipate any further problems with it. Those with less of an understanding might still be worried, but that's their lookout and not my problem. I am not 'overthinking' it either. I observed an effect. Discovered it also occurred on other bikes, deduced the reasons behind this behaviour and concluded that it indicates no error on my bike. I've now moved on and have no more interest in this issue. It is others who keep droning on about it. So let's drop it eh? You can continue to deny the existence of any such effect if you want, up to you. Move on guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted October 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 1, 2014 First of all, I am pleased you have no more issues with your VFR1200, but don't tell me that I can't read a wiring diagram. My VFR1200 does not raise the revs, when the clutch lever is pulled in, and never has. Why you start a thread, and ask for advise, without take it on board, then throw it, in the face of people trying to help you, I don't know. Best of luck, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Dave. I have no issue with you, but you clearly have not correctly read the wiring diagram. There IS a connection to the ECU (please notice the G/W wire to the far right connection of the ECU). As I have stated, I only surmised what it might be doing with that info. But it IS doing something and I am not the only one to be aware of this. Another poster on this very forum has stated every Honda he ever had has always done it. Well, that may be an exaggeration, but the evidence is there that the ECU IS doing something. I'm sorry if you've not seen it with your own eyes, but don't take umbrage at my suggestion you've misread the wiring diagram (which you have) when you are all calling me (and many others) liars (which I am not). In any case, I did NOT ask about the clutch in this thread. I did raise another thread about that, but some are insisting on carrying on about it here. I have already thanked everyone for their input, but I am not bound to agree with everything that is said. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate the input. So please. Let's drop it (the clutch issue that is, not the bike ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiKenG Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Analysis of this clutch effect should continue no further in this thread as there is already another thread about this specific subject. Please see:- http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/79309-clutch-operation/page-2#entry970514 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 1, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted October 1, 2014 Well since you have no prove. Or makes us video of said problem. Love to see it first hand . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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