Member Contributer redmarque Posted October 9, 2007 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 9, 2007 Great Arion! this is just the type of input I've been looking for! hossack suspension is really an unknown quantity. I agree that to adjust the weight bias using a custom swingarm would be the best solution as I don't really want to increase the wheelbase or rake\trail :blink: Will just have to see how it works with the VFR swingarm first. On your advise I am going to re-address the anti-dive situation. Tok Tokkie has suggested 60% anti-dive? I think I will try and calculate how much BMW used by scaling up the pic and entering in FFE software. On another note. My copy of the VOSA MSVA Inspection Manual arrived yesterday! :huh: It's the UK Vehicle & Operator Services Agency Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Inspection Manual. ( yawn ) basically when you build a one-off bike in the UK it has to undergo an engineers report before they will alocate a Identification Number and allow a Registration number to be assigned to it. 29 Chapters of rules and regs about how high the lights are allowed to be, where the number plate can go. if any of the parts will cause injury, brake testing and exhaust noise etc. Great bed time reading! I can see why most people use an existing frame and modify it saves loads of hassle! :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted October 11, 2007 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 11, 2007 Been pondering the anti-dive on my design... Arion seemed to thing it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel which got me very worried :unsure: At the time i hadn't got my laptop with the FFE software installed.. but I picked it up this evening and went over the design again. Here are the graphs for anti-dive, rake, trail and wheel trajectory. lets say that sag is 25-30 mm and over all suspension movement is 120mm (same as standard VFR) As you can see the anti-dive after 30mm goes upto 50% in the next 60mm of travel. If the base link is shorted by 5mm anti-dive goes up to 60% in the same distance. phew! :thumbsup: what a relef! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Those FFE graphs are way cool! Good to see more progress, thanks for the update/s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted October 15, 2007 Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2007 On the FFE graph of anti-dive percentage: 1. It changes from pro-dive to anti-dive at about 35mm wheel deflection. Is 0 wheel deflection when forks are fully extended (ie front wheel just about airborne)? If so then 35mm is about normal static pre-load so it will be anti-dive under all normal conditions. 2. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like. I appreciate it is pro-dive all the way but it must be progressively less as the spring loads up I would expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted October 15, 2007 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 15, 2007 On the FFE graph of anti-dive percentage:1. It changes from pro-dive to anti-dive at about 35mm wheel deflection. Is 0 wheel deflection when forks are fully extended (ie front wheel just about airborne)? If so then 35mm is about normal static pre-load so it will be anti-dive under all normal conditions. 2. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like. I appreciate it is pro-dive all the way but it must be progressively less as the spring loads up I would expect. Yes that's right Tok. Zero is fork fully extended. So normal pre-load should be at about 25-30mm. I should be able to change this as the front shock top mounting will be adjustable for ride-hight. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like?... don't know? Though I imagine pretty disgusting in comparision.. :pissed: I'll have to check whether the FFE software can calculate it? As for progressive - the graph shows a steady increase in anti-dive upto full travel. (If mr foale's maths is correct) also the rising-rate linkage will increase the force on the spring the further it's compressed too. P.S. if MR Ohlins is reading this, I could really do with a nice pair of shocks to test with? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted October 22, 2007 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2007 Only a small update for now... My ducati monster... :D Opps! franken VFR is coming on nicely... Picked up the main engine carrier bushes on the weekend, so a few more tubes cut and fitted. Had an inital quote for the custom yoke too - £500! <_< Going to see if I can leave work early this week to visit the machine shop and discuss options. (one of the engineers has built grasstrack bikes before, so hopefully I can get someone excited about making bikes) I'm hoping that simplifying the design will bring the machining cost down. Has anyone used http://www.emachineshop.com? Keep riding! :thumbsup: Redmarque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 You are going to have fun when it comes time to check the valves. Just lift the frame off the engine I suppose. I am just noting it - structurally your frame looks the berries; not compromising the frame to ease maintenance is fine by me. I'm with Ralph, but given the effort that's gone into this so far I had to wonder whether it was perhaps a bit of an illusion. So I went back a page and found this. I'm going to guess that with the bolts out the cam cover can be moved down and out? Also enjoyed seeing this again (I just jump to the latest page so I forget what's gone before): RedMarque, given the (so far) minimalist bodywork you seem to favour, what do you have in mind for the rear end? Because something that looks so right simply should not be covered :thumbsup: May I suggest an LED tail-light with internal wiring in one of the rear horizontal tubes - if in the lower one it would certainly be unobtrusive. Regarding www.emachineshop.com - I recall a guy from the VFR 'big list' who used them and was very happy with the result - IIRC it was for a mount for a camera/GPS/something. Sorry I can't give any more info than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Regarding www.emachineshop.com - I recall a guy from the VFR 'big list' who used them and was very happy with the result - IIRC it was for a mount for a camera/GPS/something. Sorry I can't give any more info than that. :idea3: Murray has it right, that was the tale. http://www.bytebrothers.org/Reviews/eMachineShop/Default.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted October 23, 2007 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2007 You are going to have fun when it comes time to check the valves. Just lift the frame off the engine I suppose. I am just noting it - structurally your frame looks the berries; not compromising the frame to ease maintenance is fine by me. I'm going to guess that with the bolts out the cam cover can be moved down and out? RedMarque, given the (so far) minimalist bodywork you seem to favour, what do you have in mind for the rear end? Because something that looks so right simply should not be covered :thumbsup: May I suggest an LED tail-light with internal wiring in one of the rear horizontal tubes - if in the lower one it would certainly be unobtrusive. Regarding www.emachineshop.com - I recall a guy from the VFR 'big list' who used them and was very happy with the result - IIRC it was for a mount for a camera/GPS/something. Sorry I can't give any more info than that. Great info on emachineshop :thumbsup: thanks guy's. You should try their free cad software.. might inspire someone? Valve clearances? wot r doze? no seriously the engine is bolted to the frame at 6 points with spacers, so discontecting (labelled) wiring and rad plumbing will be a slight mission. I didn't want the overall structure compromised but the thought was there when I positioned the tubes. A sacrifice of having a rising rate linkage on the front shock/wishbones :blink: The rear-end. - Yes i'm pleased with the shape too and after looking at a zx6r i'm confident that it's going to be strong enough for 2up. Unfortunatly those lovely tubes are going to be covered! I've sourced some, wait for it... Vespa indicators and rear light from an ET4. don't worry as they won't be recognisable! :idea3: there shape will be changed by apatures in the bodywork. stop lamp will be upside-down and re wired with leds (I can feel another browser being launched and Vespa et4 typed in to google) :goofy: That (yawn) interesting book on motorcycle assessment (MSVA) states that indicators need to be at least 180mm apart on the rear and 240mm at the front! Better get back to the angle grinder... Redmarque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 11, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 11, 2008 Well guys Happy New Year! Thought i'd show you what's been going on in the redmarque garage.... The grider's been whizzing. :goofy: I've finally have a good engineering company on board with a cnc mill and an guy whom makes grass track sidecar outfits to do the tig welding. I've finished constructing the rear sub-frame mounts Fitted the rear shock ride-height adjuster (zx-9r shock) Filled and primed the tank I do like this view :salesman: Had fork bottom/axle clamps made (sorry dodgy focus) Constructed the fork and headstock jig Sourced a CBR 600 F4i rear shock for the front sus, currently using a fireblade dogbone. (Probably have to make a bespoke one later.) Cut and jigged top and bottom suspension wishbones I Hope these are going to be strong enough! :blink: Hopefully all will be welded in the next few weeks. Wishbone bearing holders are being made this week along with top/base stem clamps. Well thats' all for now! :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 12, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 12, 2008 It's looking good. Quite an undertaking indeed, this one is!The tubing you're using looks to be about .065 wall -- are you shooting for a specific overall weight for the bike? Just curious, as I've worked on a few weight intensive projects over the years and know the huge benefits of lighter vehicles. Tubes are 1.5mm so you were pretty close! Hopefully it will be way lighter than stock, but as i don't have finite element analysis and as I don't fancy it folding up on me first ride I've really been cautions with the construction especally on the double wishbones. I think if i was making another it would be nice to use larger bore Aluminium tube. I have no idea how much it will weigh - but will atempt the bathroom scales under each wheel when it's a bit further along. the fork clamps are steel and really need some serious lightening done before welding. I've been thinking about getting the motor overbored to 836cc - TTS engineering do it in the UK for about $800? Any suggestions to where the torocharger could be fitted?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted January 12, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted January 12, 2008 Is the front suspension shock unit going to live down there? That is where John Britten fitted his rear suspension shock unit. All knowledgeable motorcyclists will immediately recognise who you are tipping your hat to there. If it is as it looks how are you going to invert displacement so upward deflection of the wheel results in compression of the shock unit? What are your intentions about a radiator? Looks like plenty of space between the shock & engine for a conventional superbike radiator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 12, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 12, 2008 Is the front suspension shock unit going to live down there? That is where John Britten fitted his rear suspension shock unit. All knowledgeable motorcyclists will immediately recognise who you are tipping your hat to there. If it is as it looks how are you going to invert displacement so upward deflection of the wheel results in compression of the shock unit?What are your intentions about a radiator? Looks like plenty of space between the shock & engine for a conventional superbike radiator. Hi Tok! No the shock is dangling because the top mounting hasn't been fitted yet! Though i'll look into that option now you've mentioned it! I'm a bit worried about the radiator myself . I have a pair of 99 firestorm ones that I was thinking of mounting each side? (btw the direction of flow on firestorm rads is the oposite from a vfr) but recently i've looked at late model gsxr ones that are curved. There's alot less space when the exhaust is fitted - especially the stock system as there's quite a curve exiting the ports. open to suggestions on radiator/s? Redmarque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 17, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 17, 2008 What are your intentions about a radiator? Looks like plenty of space between the shock & engine for a conventional superbike radiator. Tok, I've soured a ducati 748/916 radiator which should fit below the front suspension linkage. should look good too as it has a nice curve to it. :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vfrrider Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Top of frame coming together - turned bushes hold tubes in place on threaded rod - airbox wil need a little diet to fit. Has anyone tried ram air modification with a VFR? Yep, but a carbed model. May eventually try on EFI modded engine. Actually just a cold air source, not sealed. Easy way, use the turn signal holes, with cut out signal lenses, and place a 2" OD flexible heater hose (metal) over turn signal snout on back. Curl up over fairing mount on side and down into side intake holes. Works and is very tight. But the hose is the secret, has body and flex. Larry VFRrider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 19, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 19, 2008 Took a trip to the Machine Shop this morning.... It felt like Christmas.. Loads of CNC'd Parts finished! :D Yoke and Handlebar clamps. made from aircraft grade aluminium Head Bearing holder Steel as will be welded to the frame. Double Wishbone bearing holders Small bike bearings -with Steel reducers to 12mm Top and Bottom Stem Clamps Would have liked to have the sharp corners taken off but machining time is $$$ - maybe later or MK2? Next job to press all bearings in straight! :goofy: Can't wait to see what they will look like on the bike! :goofy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 19, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 19, 2008 Da Dah! :thumbsup: Squeezed the bearings in using the vice.. it fits! Cinderella you shall go to the ball! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted January 21, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 21, 2008 THIS thing is SWEET! very very cool work....nuff strokin your ego :idea3: I've got a Tyga 211 used rear fairing that may look sweet on that thing surely would be much less than what you can get a new one with that HIGH shipping charge. Send me a PM if you wish Thanks Fly. Was beginning to feel a bit despondent about the project. Please you like it so far. :thumbsup: Your suggestion on a 211 Tail is most appreciated, but I've already plans for Fiber glassing my own design bodywork - I started the project with a Suzuki SV upper fairing - I butchered it even more now! messing around with the shape hopefully when I’ve finished with it, it won't look sv at all! Makes a good basis to work from as making a fairing shape from scratch would be even harder! Making bodywork symmetrical is probably the biggest challenge :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted March 5, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 5, 2008 Redmarque is Dark, mean and Moody today. - Wishbones - rear sub frame - rear shock linkage - headstock - radiator and oil cooler mount are all with the welder! So whilst i've been waiting and a with little time at work, I thought i'd scour fleabay for some top parts! today's arrival was a lovely new pair of braking wave discs at a bargain price of £150 delivered! I've lined up some R1 calipers to clamp these bad boys too! B) All the photos are Black & White today - kinda arty-atmospheric! :thumbsup: Next another good find and back to my original idea of stacked headlights - KTM RC8 meets Hayabusa! :joystick: A few posts ago I had some cnc work done. Once the 7/8th handlebar tube was sourced in a length under 6 metres. the yoke/clamp/bar combo is coming together nicely. 5th Gen Master cylinder and clutch finished of with shorty pazzos Now i do believe that scooters have a good use... hack the integrated indicators out and use for a experiment with tail unit shaping - after all this is going to be a road bike. :blink: I never did understand why lindicators always look bad sticking out? :pissed: The type of idea i'm looking for will be a sleek blend around the back seat edge and narrowing down to the tank. Would welcome some comments and suggestions? :thumbsup: Ride Safe! Redmarque :goofy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted March 20, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 20, 2008 Welding commenced today! The frame finally is out of it's cage - there's now an empty space on the garage floor were a jig used to be! How long have i waited for this day! :D Here's James scorching metal with his water cooled tig welder - the hose off his helmet is used to supply "fresh" air from the waist pack behind his back - hope he didn't have a curry last night! :goofy: having a workshop day tomorrow so watch this space! :goofy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted March 21, 2008 Share Posted March 21, 2008 It would be interesting if you weighed your new frame. Maybe someone else who has a loose stock 5th gen frame could weigh that as well for comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted March 21, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2008 It would be interesting if you weighed your new frame. Maybe someone else who has a loose stock 5th gen frame could weigh that as well for comparison? 7.6 kg without lower bearing race. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...c=16292&hl= The frame looks gorgeous. Waiting to see the forks, not sure about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted March 21, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 21, 2008 I'll get on the scales with it on monday as i'm away until then. i'm guessing is under 5kg. Dropped the frame over the engine before leaving home today. Good to 'see' what it would look like :goofy: forks are out of the jig now plus sub-frames welding is complete - will be over James workshop next Sat too carry on scissor linkage to connect yokes to fork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer redmarque Posted March 24, 2008 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 24, 2008 7Kg - The best I can do with bathroom scales! It would be interesting to compare rear sub-frame /fork-yoke weight aswell if someone has these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 7Kg - The best I can do with bathroom scales! I thought it would be close! Now, the weight of the completed bike with a full load of fliuds? I'm guessing 460 Lbs, if you're going with minimalist bodywork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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