Jthomas Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Hi There New here from Portugal, bought the VFR a year ago, and i had made some work on renewing the bike. we are talking about a 1991 VFR 750 F-M granite blue (i think this is the name of the factory color) Don´t have pics from the before but this were the shortcommings - broken fairings on the right and dents in the tank due to a fall - bad paint job (black with blue tone) - Exaust (a mess there were some iron between the holes, it broke into 3 when i took the exaust off) - clutch cover cracked (previous owner fall to the right and the bike was dragged and open a hole in the clutch cover, it was welded but was dripping oil still) - 2 of the 3 yellow cables from stator to the rr were burned, bike was allways discharging (thought it was the rr or stator but was just 2 cables burned) - bike was always dripping oil and gas to the floor (oil because the bad welding of the clutch cover and gas from the pipe connecting the gas tank - bike was always stalling after reving or just died when iddling What was done - complete reconstruction of the fairings with new paint job, piano black. - complete exaust, original with carbon fiber renegade muffler - New clutch cover from ebay with new gasket (broke one screw when torque screwing, fortunetly was able to take that screw out) - New plugs, from the back cylinder it was easy but the front cylinder was a pain.. need to pull radiator to the front, and still not easy - New fuel filter with fuel pipe (found out that the cable from tha tank to the gas pump was leaking) - new little filter from a small box lacated at the right of the carbs. - Oil change with oil filter - painted central stand (was in bad shape, corrosion) - chain was cleaned and lubed - the weels were cleaned and polished and the swing arm was clened too, (the gas flow throught) - take the dents from tank and paint took me some months to do all this. Right now looks like this The symptoms of stalling stopped, i think it was the sparks, they were yellow and bad tighteen, and no more liquids fel to the floor Need new brake pads in the front brakes, ill do it next week. And i hear a ticking that disapear when i rev the bike, only ear it when iddling. Honda tech guys said it was normal to this bikes due to the gear driven cams Will post more pictures when stops raining around here and have time for a ride Good rides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonerydin Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Looks great! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdouvill Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Very goog job indeed. Can't wait to see more pics Envoyé de mon SM-A510F en utilisant Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Yeah the ticking is normal, some are WAY louder than others - mine's barely audible for example, especially once warmed up. I find it's worse when it's been parked up for a month or two (mine's a sunny day only bike), but quickly disappears and stays virtually gone when used more than once a week. Looks like a beauty anyway, great job on the restore :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 10 hours ago, gonerydin said: Looks great! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Thanks :) 8 hours ago, bdouvill said: Very goog job indeed. Can't wait to see more pics Envoyé de mon SM-A510F en utilisant Tapatalk Thanks :) i'll send the ones i have stored in the phone. 1 hour ago, 750 said: Yeah the ticking is normal, some are WAY louder than others - mine's barely audible for example, especially once warmed up. I find it's worse when it's been parked up for a month or two (mine's a sunny day only bike), but quickly disappears and stays virtually gone when used more than once a week. Looks like a beauty anyway, great job on the restore :) Thanks :) well the bike was parked to do the restore from december to march. But yours doing the normal the ticking dissapear after warm up, mine actually the reverse, little louder when is hot, but is always there, little but there. i strongly believe it´s like you said its normal. Actually i got 2 noises, one that is like wooden knock, that disapear once i push the clutch (Honda tech said was something about the driven gear of the clutch? i believe this is the name. the honda tech guys told me the repair would be expensive and that a lot of bikes have that without problems and the other witch is this tick tick tick little audible (they told me that noise is good, means valves are loosen, and is bad if the noise stops mean they are too tighteen? Gotta believe them right i'll make a movie on the wekeend so we may compare This was the first repair on the day i bought the bike. after the first two hours riding, once i stoped at my door and tried to start the vfr, she didnt start. Low batery symptoms with multimeter the readings were 11.5 v. and after recharging, with the bike running, at the batery terminals i read 12.1V something was wrong tested the stator, and the rr, they all seemed healthy. when i was taking the right fairing this was what it looked like it's a plastic plug that connects the 3 yellow cables from the stator, it´s likely that someone let it bad connected, and due to the hight current these tiny cables transport disaster happened. it was normal that vfr didn´t charge like this. from the 3 yellow cable that came from stator to the rr, two were burned, after repair at iddle at the batery terminals i read 13.7 this was some dents that i removed from the gas tank, and the old color, a darken blue with metallic particles When i was doing the plugs change and fuel filter with the fuel line from gas pump to the tank (if you watch there is no fuel line from pump ) This was the old clutch cover, it is not visible but was welded, but still dripping oil, so i used some epoxy to temporary stop the dripping some pics i had on the phone (phone camera quality really sucks i know ) Cheers and good rides :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdouvill Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Is that muffler a Delkevic? Any though on quality and sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, bdouvill said: Is that muffler a Delkevic? Any though on quality and sound? No it´s a Renegade, sound is good, quality i'll see, only rode 80 miles since i have it. i'll make a vídeo of the sound, bought it second hand, but is the same one in the vídeos bellow, with the diference these guy use two of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEmfIHNICy4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdouvill Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Thanks for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 18 hours ago, bdouvill said: Is that muffler a Delkevic? Any though on quality and sound? I got Delk to produce the 3rd gen high level, they wouldn't do it until I pestered them relentlessly. Their quality is great, the sound is fantastic - even better without the baffle :) Here's a comparison vid on my bike before I put the left exit on And the left exit for shits and giggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 6 hours ago, 750 said: I got Delk to produce the 3rd gen high level, they wouldn't do it until I pestered them relentlessly. Their quality is great, the sound is fantastic - even better without the baffle :) Here's a comparison vid on my bike before I put the left exit on And the left exit for shits and giggles wow that whity looks new mate. great work with it. Congrats 120%New :) somehow i like more the noise of that Sebring muffler. Delkevic looks better but the sound of the sebring something else Since you got me with the sound of yours here is mine On start up with exaust (here cant hear tick tick) With muffler off, and after 5 min warm up the tick tick becomes more audible somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Took a lot of time, effort and money to get it as it is. It was red originally! The Sebring exhaust gets rid of the rear manifold and is essentially straight through, I had to have two separate rolling road sessions done to tune it correctly, it's just shy of 100BHP at the rear wheel now, it really flies from about 4krpm as the exhaust and dynojet kit favour the top end over the usual low down grunt, but certainly not slow at lower revs. The paint, indicators, screen, mirrors, tank badge, decals...all custom, the front wheel is off a 94-97 model so it has floating discs. The front forks were revalved by Maxton and I'll be buying a Maxton rear shock later this year, it handles better than any bike I've owned and I've owned a LOT. My other steed is an SV1000 that's pretty nice looking as well :) Got this to go on the SV as well...although it'll bolt right into the VFR as well but it takes a lot of work with moving radiators etc Anyway, your bike's looking and sounding great. Any more plans for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 19 hours ago, 750 said: Took a lot of time, effort and money to get it as it is. It was red originally! The Sebring exhaust gets rid of the rear manifold and is essentially straight through, I had to have two separate rolling road sessions done to tune it correctly, it's just shy of 100BHP at the rear wheel now, it really flies from about 4krpm as the exhaust and dynojet kit favour the top end over the usual low down grunt, but certainly not slow at lower revs. The paint, indicators, screen, mirrors, tank badge, decals...all custom, the front wheel is off a 94-97 model so it has floating discs. The front forks were revalved by Maxton and I'll be buying a Maxton rear shock later this year, it handles better than any bike I've owned and I've owned a LOT. My other steed is an SV1000 that's pretty nice looking as well :) Got this to go on the SV as well...although it'll bolt right into the VFR as well but it takes a lot of work with moving radiators etc Anyway, your bike's looking and sounding great. Any more plans for it? That golden front on the VFR thats the mod everyone wants. its something else. it would stay perfect on the VFR or on the SV1000 i know the feeling man, once you create that kind of relationship whith the bike you´ll run out of Money and time , but learn a lot too, i experienced that, like a decease Nice sebring. you taken out silencers inside it? 100hp at rear Wheel, from factory what supose to be the hp at rear Wheel? mine is stock, just muffler. At dyno did you check top speed at redline? I ask this because a friend of mine got a vfr750 but from 97 and he keeps telling gearboxes from these models are different and they have more top speed. you paint yours right? thats not the white factory color but its even better, keep the good work that SV semi naked ........ gorgeous. what bike you preffer? haha Right now on mine the mods i want to do is, clear carbs and valve work for peace of mind. 50k miles its just about time to it, because dont know if previous owner had done it , and around here vfr have the reputation of hercules bikes that never breaks down, and so they neglect the common services oil changes etc. in the future muffler to the left side to see that 8 spoke beauty wheel Did you check the vídeo of the ticking noises? for compare Cheers and good rides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 So the GSXR front end on the VFR would be a bit of work - the radiator would need moving, oil cooler relocating or blanking, steering lock adjusting - it's fairly involved and I honestly don't think that other than the brakes, it would improve things. Well, it'd look a bit better but that's subjective! The paint on the VFR is a standard Toyota white that has gold flake in it, so on close inspection in the sun it is really beautiful, it's got its fair share of stone chips and so on though as I ride it hard when the sun's out! The Sebring was expensive to fit and expensive to tune the carbs for. You can buy left exit exhausts from Black Widow but their quality is a little questionable, the Sebring's are rare but do pop up on German Ebay from time to time, I saw one sell on UK Ebay for about £70 last year, unreal! I'm unsure if you'd need to tune the carbs for the black widow system as I think it might connect to the manifold on the rear, so not a great deal changes other than the collector box not being present anymore. Mine was showing approx 98bhp at the rear wheel depending on the ambient temp, it was about 28c that day and I've not got a K&N, the dyno guy advised a K&N would genuinely be of benefit in my bike as it requires the faster air flow to make use of the smaller jets and completely open exhaust (so no baffle at any point of the system, it's basically just four wide open pipes. 4-2-1 to be precise) I could probably squeeze more out of it by getting the head skimmed and ports flowed, but what's the point, it's more bike than I am rider so no need :) The bike from factory came with 100bhp but this was at the crank, so minus whatever through the drive train...I think I've gained about 8bhp, it's very noticeable up top. Do I prefer the VFR or SV? Close call, I think once I've sorted the SV's handling out (it's not that bad but it's not exactly confidence inspring) then I'd find that question hard to answer - they're both very pretty, both sound great, the SV's quicker and lighter but the VFR feels more solid and is glued to the road, I can also ride the VFR at virtually 100% throttle a lot of the time (on private roads, obviously!) and I never get scared of it, the SV does make me worry though as the throttle is snatchier and it's SO easy to bring the front end up, I'm no wheelie master! I own both and can use both whenever I want...so it's all good. I'm thinking of adding a 250cc moto cross bike to the garage as none of this costs me a lot to own (costs me a lot to modify though!) so maybe I'll gain wheelie confidence with that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Oh and the ticking sound is fine, wouldn't worry about it. Even if your engine did explode, you can get second hand ones cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 30/03/2017 at 9:14 AM, 750 said: So the GSXR front end on the VFR would be a bit of work - the radiator would need moving, oil cooler relocating or blanking, steering lock adjusting - it's fairly involved and I honestly don't think that other than the brakes, it would improve things. Well, it'd look a bit better but that's subjective! The paint on the VFR is a standard Toyota white that has gold flake in it, so on close inspection in the sun it is really beautiful, it's got its fair share of stone chips and so on though as I ride it hard when the sun's out! The Sebring was expensive to fit and expensive to tune the carbs for. You can buy left exit exhausts from Black Widow but their quality is a little questionable, the Sebring's are rare but do pop up on German Ebay from time to time, I saw one sell on UK Ebay for about £70 last year, unreal! I'm unsure if you'd need to tune the carbs for the black widow system as I think it might connect to the manifold on the rear, so not a great deal changes other than the collector box not being present anymore. Mine was showing approx 98bhp at the rear wheel depending on the ambient temp, it was about 28c that day and I've not got a K&N, the dyno guy advised a K&N would genuinely be of benefit in my bike as it requires the faster air flow to make use of the smaller jets and completely open exhaust (so no baffle at any point of the system, it's basically just four wide open pipes. 4-2-1 to be precise) I could probably squeeze more out of it by getting the head skimmed and ports flowed, but what's the point, it's more bike than I am rider so no need :) The bike from factory came with 100bhp but this was at the crank, so minus whatever through the drive train...I think I've gained about 8bhp, it's very noticeable up top. Do I prefer the VFR or SV? Close call, I think once I've sorted the SV's handling out (it's not that bad but it's not exactly confidence inspring) then I'd find that question hard to answer - they're both very pretty, both sound great, the SV's quicker and lighter but the VFR feels more solid and is glued to the road, I can also ride the VFR at virtually 100% throttle a lot of the time (on private roads, obviously!) and I never get scared of it, the SV does make me worry though as the throttle is snatchier and it's SO easy to bring the front end up, I'm no wheelie master! I own both and can use both whenever I want...so it's all good. I'm thinking of adding a 250cc moto cross bike to the garage as none of this costs me a lot to own (costs me a lot to modify though!) so maybe I'll gain wheelie confidence with that :) yheah improvement on ridind and on looks too. to me the achiles knee of the vfr is the front suspension and front breaking dont get rid of that sebring. tuned and with left exit is really different. actually didn´t tune after installing my muffler. Right now around here in Portugal they are trying to intruduce periodic inspections on all motocycles, the centres allready have the equipement to testing bikes, its a matter of months, and these aftermarket mufflers will not pass the inspections so i really need to find an original one... but sure they are really pricy. Thats good man, stock its around 90 bhp so you got around what 110 115? Good choice of white. didnt know about that Toyota white, with that gold flakes on it should be amazing in the sun. im going to paint my car myself but im more close to use the white of opel the one used in the 2006 astra vxr (in UK the model is Vauxhall GTC Vxr i think) Different riding positions and different weight and height. Vfr sticks better to the road thanks to its 230 kg lol SV more light for sure after riding a lot the vfr and then changing to my Yamaha dtr (sold last year) i feel the dtr a lot more insecure thought they are completly diferent. The weight the fairings and the rear suspension makes vfr unique. A third one haha thats nice, i begun on off roads, i really like the 1 cilinder 2 stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 On 30/03/2017 at 9:15 AM, 750 said: Oh and the ticking sound is fine, wouldn't worry about it. Even if your engine did explode, you can get second hand ones cheap The funny thing is after temp gauge pass the middle it stops. And today on my ride i didnt ear it.. i believe its like you said, 4 month of stop made her more ticking, but if i ride it a lot the ticking will go away i hope. Changed the front brake pads today . didnt do it myself because had a good discount on the job, and repair the rear of the muffler (there were a bolt that break and the exaust gases were leaking throught that bolt and it was a job i couldn't do myself , a lot of soldering) After 4 moths she has enough health to ride, years of abuse thanks to previous owner led to an urgent attention. A resume on what was done and the money spent 110 euros on a original exaust (headers, central pipes all except muffler) 60euros muffler 120eur paint job (did it myself at home, paint grids and bondo) 150 on oil, plugs, oil filter, fuel filter, clutch gasket, gas tubes and others 50 today on the pads and muffler repair. less than 500eur to put her like new, and almost done by myself The next mods are - Front tire, next month perhaps - front discs, found today they are getting close to the limit (after wear these sets of front pads) and told that the front and back discs would be around 400 euros to change - valve and shims adjustment - get an original muffler (just for inspections) - new clutch and purge of the hydraulic clutch oil - chain Cheers and good rides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 Well if you've managed to get away without motorcycle inspections for so long then you're lucky. We have an annual check called an MOT - it just checks the basics like lights, tyres, horn, brakes - nothing too special! It's not too expensive and if you care for a bike then it's guaranteed to pass, they don't test emissions thankfully and I doubt that'll come into action with us leaving the EU in two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 On 01/04/2017 at 11:46 PM, 750 said: Well if you've managed to get away without motorcycle inspections for so long then you're lucky. We have an annual check called an MOT - it just checks the basics like lights, tyres, horn, brakes - nothing too special! It's not too expensive and if you care for a bike then it's guaranteed to pass, they don't test emissions thankfully and I doubt that'll come into action with us leaving the EU in two years. and the EU want it in all europe after 2020 so here they wanted to do it before the Eu but there is no laws for it yet. but the way they do it there in UK is nice here they will test emissions i know this because done on my car last week and the machines for testing bikes are there as weel the one to mesuare C02 and decibels found out today too that aside the muffler my windshild is not the original one, it is taller. found no logo of the make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slovcan Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 37 minutes ago, Jthomas said: and the EU want it in all europe after 2020 so here they wanted to do it before the Eu but there is no laws for it yet. but the way they do it there in UK is nice here they will test emissions i know this because done on my car last week and the machines for testing bikes are there as weel the one to mesuare C02 and decibels found out today too that aside the muffler my windshield is not the original one, it is taller. found no logo of the make A board member over on the V4HondaBBS brought me back a Powerbronze windshield from the UK a year or so ago. It looks just like yours and is way nicer than stock. Cheers, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 2 hours ago, slovcan said: A board member over on the V4HondaBBS brought me back a Powerbronze windshield from the UK a year or so ago. It looks just like yours and is way nicer than stock. Cheers, Glenn Hi there Glenn indeed looks nicer and rider gets better protection from wind, its taller and ends on a bend to the outsider. just notice it today after standing side to side with a 93 vfr It makes the front of the bike different, and now i know why i didn´t have the Honda logo in the front ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Surely an aftermarket windscreen can't be a failure? I can understand exhausts as they are a nuisance to ANYONE who isn't a biker - a loud one just pisses off neighbors, residents of any property you pass (especially early morning/late night) and irritates pedestrians - I have to spend £3000 to put secondary glazing in due to living on a main road, the motorcycles are the most irritating thing after buses and lorries. I'm not criticising as mine's obnoxiously loud - not out of choice, mind you! It's just the nature of an early 90s exhaust system made for racing, but I don't ride early morning or late at night so I can live with myself. I also get the emissions thing, can't say I want to be breathing in horrible fumes and anything that can minimise that is welcome in my book. BUT, expecting a 20+ year old bike on carbs that was designed in an era less worried about pollution is a bit much. I imagine whether we're in the EU or not, emissions testing will become standard here in the UK at some point, but we're pragmatic and it'll be for bikes after a certain year, I imagine this will be late 2004 onwards as I think that's when catalytic converters started making an appearance on bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 2 hours ago, 750 said: Surely an aftermarket windscreen can't be a failure? I can understand exhausts as they are a nuisance to ANYONE who isn't a biker - a loud one just pisses off neighbors, residents of any property you pass (especially early morning/late night) and irritates pedestrians - I have to spend £3000 to put secondary glazing in due to living on a main road, the motorcycles are the most irritating thing after buses and lorries. I'm not criticising as mine's obnoxiously loud - not out of choice, mind you! It's just the nature of an early 90s exhaust system made for racing, but I don't ride early morning or late at night so I can live with myself. I also get the emissions thing, can't say I want to be breathing in horrible fumes and anything that can minimise that is welcome in my book. BUT, expecting a 20+ year old bike on carbs that was designed in an era less worried about pollution is a bit much. I imagine whether we're in the EU or not, emissions testing will become standard here in the UK at some point, but we're pragmatic and it'll be for bikes after a certain year, I imagine this will be late 2004 onwards as I think that's when catalytic converters started making an appearance on bikes. its a good question, i sure hope they don´t fail because of it, and i believe they will look everything in these MOT we do here. Regulations there in UK are prety strict but somehow they are necessary, my neightbour had a Yamaha xt350 an old one and i didn´t need no alarm to wake up at 6.30am lool yheah i know what you saying, its true, but i dont think VRF's are that loud compared to other bikes mine just a little after 5k rpm i believe yours like that too. really loud is when you remove the muffler... like i had on the vídeo.. thats loud Right but in the UK you think right when doing the laws, around here we just copy the laws from other countries (EU) and i don´t say that is bad, the problem here is implementig the laws, you said in UK they will be pragmatic about the CO2 of the old motorbikes,they have that sense, around here is like 8 or 80. In London (correct me if im wrong) the cars that pollute more the air may need to pay a fee, and thats fine. Around here in Lisbon they do not allow cars older then 2002 to enter the city.. if i have a renaulf from 31/12/2001 i cannot enter but if i bought the exact same car the next day i may enter the city... To Forget about these problems at least we have great rodes to ride :) ill send some new pictures from yestarday ride Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted April 3, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted April 3, 2017 There will be a new "Ultra Low Emissions Zone" in London in a few years and it essentially bans any bike older than 2008. (I think you can pay £10/day or something, but who's going to do that?) I currently have no bikes that would qualify, but I'm sure I can buy something by then... Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
750 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 13 hours ago, JZH said: There will be a new "Ultra Low Emissions Zone" in London in a few years and it essentially bans any bike older than 2008. (I think you can pay £10/day or something, but who's going to do that?) I currently have no bikes that would qualify, but I'm sure I can buy something by then... Ciao, There's a big campaign happening through 'we ride London' to stop this, Sadiq Khan (wish I hadn't voted him in) has already put it on the back burner, I'd be surprised if it affects motorcycles. I'd hedge a bet on there being an incentive to buy motorcycles and use them for commuting over public transport/car etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jthomas Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 17 hours ago, JZH said: There will be a new "Ultra Low Emissions Zone" in London in a few years and it essentially bans any bike older than 2008. (I think you can pay £10/day or something, but who's going to do that?) I currently have no bikes that would qualify, but I'm sure I can buy something by then... Ciao, 4 hours ago, 750 said: There's a big campaign happening through 'we ride London' to stop this, Sadiq Khan (wish I hadn't voted him in) has already put it on the back burner, I'd be surprised if it affects motorcycles. I'd hedge a bet on there being an incentive to buy motorcycles and use them for commuting over public transport/car etc. So it is worldwide, here is just for cars, motocycles can still enter city even if they are old, but it will change in the future. Bikes older than 2008 would not be able to enter London? thats even harder. I understand for cars, not for bikes like 750 said, since bikes have less emissions, unless they use the same propaganda they use here "use public transports" problem is public transports really bad around here. 20 miles take like one and na half to two hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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