JES_VFR

Hey Trace you bring up a good point, but I think you don't see the real truth. None of the breakthroughs in the alternate energy arena started with these big industry leaders, Its all these small little companies that design and develop the technology, then GM, Ford, Exxon, LUK or even the USAF comes along and wants to buy out the patent. Some of the stuff the try and produce, a lot of it they just bury. Add in all the scammers, liars and idiot, it quickly becomes apparent that this industry has major credibility issues. Hell I'm employed in it now and I'm still a skeptic when it comes to other technologies. You are 100% correct it is all about Money and Energy Density. Gasoline has just about the highest density out there. That's why we have been using for all these years. The problem I have is that we never mastered efficiently combusting it. Heck that is why we don't and can't use something like methane is energy density is so low that you have to use a supercharger to compress enough of it into our inefficient combustion chamber to make close to the same power as gasoline. All I'm trying to do with this is add my own additive to the gasoline and make it burn more completely while still in the cylinder. I don't know that I'm trying to break any laws of science, I'm just trying to bend the equations in my favor for a change.

Forget about the oil, but yeah your right NO tap or spring water. Distilled or other wise purified water (I'm using Reverse Osmosis purified water as always for a couple of reasons) 1. I already have a filter setup attached to a faucet, for filling a medium size fish tank, as my tap water is that bad. 2. Over the long run the cost of using filter is cheaper by the gallon than buying distilled (its about 1.00/gal as opposed to 2.99/gal). Out on the road I suppose I'll just hit a drug store if I needed it desperately. 3. Since I'm doing some work on a renewable bio-mass based fuel process, one of the by products is RO water. So for me its just more serendipity. by the way I'm using KOH (Potasium Hydroxide) as the electrolyte right now, but that may be changing.

Well at that rate, you will have 1700 L * (2 min/ 1L) = 3400 minutes. Again that is a bit of a conservative figure, from the company (better to under quote the output than over quote it). With the pump, I'm getting a little more than .75 lpm. I'm not sure why, but I've measured using the old displacement method and consistantly gotten about .75 l of gas in a minute. It may have something to do with pump generating pressure flow and the flow scrubbing small bubbles off the plates, which clears the plate to form more gas. I do know that units without the pumps make fairly large bubbles that rise in the tubes like bubbles in soda, cling side wall of the tube. My unit even when it was setup on a bench test, makes white froth in the output tubes more like the bubbles rising in draft pint of guiness (ie. there are no recognizable bubbles until the gas rises to the surface). based on what I saw on the bench a liter of water will last 1833 L * (4 min/3L) = 2444 minutes or more than 40 hours. The question now is if that tiny bit of hydrogen and oxygen is going to really change the thermodynamic conditions inside the cylinder enough to realize any gain. I mean we are talking about ~640 parts per million or 0.064% HHO. Hmmm.... Well, nothing to do but wait for data, seeing as how you already have the stuff installed. I guess I now have some reservations about the efficacy of this system. I'd have to look up the number of liters of liguid gasoline you would need to make the number of liters of gas vapor you would need, assuming you need 1 mole of gasoline for every 14.7 moles of O2 (which is what % by volume of a liter of atmosphere?). but here is a rough equation. if the motor displaces 1560 L/min at 4000 rpm, then its pumping 280 L/min of O2, and so if we assume an ideal set of conditions use a stoich air fuel ratio, we need 19.1 liters of gas vapor. .75 liters of HHO is not as far away from the quantity of gasoline vapor as it seems at first. Now I know that equation is not 100%, but it gives you some other idea into how much gasoline is needed to make and engine run and also how little HHO would be needed to have an effect. As you say its installed, so we will see how it does when I get the tuning finished. And I have some other things to try to improve the hho production as well.

You are definitely on the right track here. That is pretty much what we are doing altering the gasoline's reaction rate to a point where we not only gain back the relatively small amount of power to make the HHO gas, but we also get more usable power. The energy is there in the gasoline, its just that with the current ICE technology up this point, were just throwing most of it away.

here are the shots of where main tank is and the fittings running to and from it. first the rear view then the view from below It doesn't need a large tank as one liter of H2O will make around 1700 liters of gas.

I could be wrong here (wouldn't be the first time) but I thought you were using a PC with Autotune?? Doesn't that have an O2 sensor?? The 2001 VFR also has an O2 sensor even if you aren't using the Autotune and that would cause issues with the PC. Or did are you using a different header? I have the PC V with zero map in it, I've added the o2 eliminators so the PCM is not having issues with the sensor output. I don't have the autotune in my hands,... Yet. I may grab a short dyno tune, until the autotune arrives, but so far it seems to be running okay.

First off let me say that someone poked me on an aside and said "don't promise things" So let me make myself clear, I'm not guaranteeing that this cell, or any cell I can build today can or would be able to get us to the point where we are doubling the work that we can get out of the potential energy locked in a liter of gasoline... Maybe I should have said instead of the 7 MJ that a current ICE can get work from what if we could alter the combustion enough to get 10 MJ of energy from the pool of 34.2 instead?? I mean spending even 300 watts to allow the combustion to utilize release an additional 3 MJ from the gasoline combustion would be a huge win. I intend to research this and experiment with it to find out just how much can I gain. Well as I wrote earlier, I don't have a big pickup, I ride my VFR as my primary vehicle(I'm hovering around 38 mpg with all the around town running I do). The next vehicle in the family is wife's car which gets 14 mpg gallon in city driving and I can't remember what it gets highway as it has been that long since it had a day trip on it. Its next on my list to get an HHO cell. Realistically, I'm expecting about a 20% increase in mileage on the VFR and something more on the wife's. Remember that this cell has no flow control, so it only makes gas at a fixed rate, therefore the effects are the greatest at low rev's. So my bike which sees a large range of rpm is going to have smaller results compared to my wife's car that has a usable rev range of less than 6000 rpm. Testing will give real numbers. No I'm not concerned about the drier's placement. If I go down on that side and actually crack the drier, the gas in it will vent to the atmosphere. In order for it to burn I would have to have a fire going already right near the damage. Second when the bike is shut down, the cell is shut down so only the gas that is already in the lines could possibly be an issue. The last point to address is just this, HHO by itself burns very very rapidly, it gone an a flash. So it would need something like a large quantity of gas vapor to incite a major fire. Nice... Oh I'm okay with the doubters as I was a major skeptic when I started looking at this. But I've done a bunch of research and looked at a lot of sincere individual's efforts, and I cannot believe that they are all just hokus pokus frauds.

First off thank you one and all. Well my teeange son wanted to name it "fawkes, the Pheonix" from the Potter series after the it was rebuilt from the hit and run two almost three years ago. I just tend to use the military alphabet VICTOR FRANK ROMEO. Hey I feel that way about a lot of your stuff. They will come. I'm going to switch to blue color here just so that it is easier to spot my comments What are you trying to accomplish? Better mileage? More power? I never did read a clear explanation of goals. Explain to me again how adding a stoichiometric mixture of one fuel is going to reduce the unburned portion of the primary fuel. I am not seeing the change in the amount of free oxygen available to burn off the original excess primary fuel. The oxygen is there already or the o2 sensors would not have anything to "sense" and the catalytic converter would not have the oxygen it needs to finish combusting the primary fuel. My point with the monofuel statement was that it does not need any of the atmosphere that is being drawn through the intake to burn so its not taking any of the oxygen away from the primary fuel Electrolizing water = 2H2O --> 2H2 + O2 (with the input of electrical energy from your motorcycle) Combusting those gasses = 2H2 + O2 --> 2H2O (with the creation of heat energy lost to the atmosphere) You're converting water into gasses then converting them back into water, correct? But you've used electrical energy from your motorcycle to do it. Unfortunately you don't receive all that power back, thanks to the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. A good point and a correct one, At this point and time with the unit that I put on the VFR, I need more watts of electricity to make gas than I can get back from the gas. As some more features get worked out and added I'll get much closer to unity (that is when power in - power out. Then maybe I may be able to convert the VFR to run on hydroxy gas as the primary fuel Plus, you are taking up the finite space in the cylinder that could be filled with gasoline and air and substituting in a fuel that has a lower specific energy. It has been a long time since I have sat through a Chem lecture, so please feel free to point out any error in my understanding. Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. Again you make good points, but the two things to remember are what does the HHO do to the combustion of the gasoline mixture and how inefficient is the combustion of gas before. The combustion in just about every ICE out in the world today is so slow that most of it goes out the exhaust port unburned. That is why the government mandates catalytic converters on vehicles. If the combustion was nearly complete when the exhaust valve opened, then there would be no hydrocarbons for the catalyst to reduce the emissions. And don't even fool yourself into thinking that today's ices are even close to efficient, they waste the majority of the energy in gasoline. It does take power in watts to make HHO, but the amount we need to make enough gas to effect combustion is a drop in the bucket compared to the MegaWatts it will liberate when it accelerates the combustion. I mean when you have 34.2 MJ of potential energy available in a liter of gasoline and a current engine only liberates about 7 MJ. If I spend a few watts (less than we use on the headlights) to release another 20-25% of the total potential within the cylinder then what's the difference. I mean if the combustion efficiency jumps to the point where we able get 14-15 MJ out of that liter of gasoline, How much will we miss the 120 watts it takes to do it? A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. Well I'm expecting the bike to make the same power as before or maybe a little more. Tuning with the power commander could be biased to make more power or gain more mileage. Dyno testing will give us the proof in this case. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before. I don't really see how it is so much more mechanically complicated as all I have to do to effectively return the bike to stock is pull the fuse powering the cell. As for safety issues, I've deliberately tested the backflash arrestor and it works containing the flash. The electrolyte is a non-issue as well as its of such low concentration that is at the bottom of the irritating chemicals list. the battery acid, the engine coolant, heck even the gasoline are all more irritating. Anyone who wants more info or to join a hho forum PM me and I'll send you links for you to seed your own research the valves and ports are only going to see a bit more water vapor than they normally do and since its not condensing on those surfaces when running should not effect them. Ihe exhaust is constructed of something other than mild steel or is other wise protected internally (like its ceramic dipped) it will not be a major factor. Now that being said, my VFR exhaust is already and ugly carbuncled mess, so I won't know until I get a new header in ss (I'd lover to spring for Ti, where is toro when you need him) harsh. give him a chance to tidy things up and come back with some real results. Or just go and read all the scientific papers that clarify HHO gas is pseudoscience waffle. I read a lot of that and there are a lot of Con-men, Charlatans and just plain honest idiots out there. So designs are over driven and make steam not HHO gas. Some use materials that leech out toxins that poison the gas produced. Some just make pretty bubbles that won't even burn because of what the doped the water with. There is a lot of crap out there and anyone interested in this needs to be careful and try to get either a vet'ed design or buy kit from a valid company. HHO gas is not a scam, water can be separated into H2 and O2 and then burned to release energy. This combustion process can have positive effects on other fuels and make for more effect combustion in them as well. Seeing that article on elsevier site is interesting since the also have peer reviewed articles like this one Peer review Well, I'm sure that anyone who puts a unit like this on their vehicle rides (or drives) it differently. That's just human nature, but over the long term a person will fall back to their normal driving style. What happens when you install an HHO cell on a modern EFI vehicle (and by modern, I mean any OEM EFI system that uses an o2 sensor and is either OBD I or OBD II equipped), is that since the combustion is so much more complete the O2 sensor gives a reading that is read as lean. This false lean reading (I say false lean because the initially the same amount of fuel has been sent to the cylinder with the same amount of air, but is it more completely completely burned so the resulting exhaust is different) causes the ecm to start adding fuel to the mixture to get back to its target value. Yeah, the computer is actually programmed to dial the mixture back to a particular level of emissions and waste. In order to stop this you have to do something to alter the either the computers allowed fuel ratios (with a chip or reflash fuel map), intercept/alter the signal of the o2 sensor itself or install a power commander type device between the computer and the fuel injectors to override the fuel demands of the pcm. On my bike I'm using the power commander. When I fit the next cell on my wife's car, I will use a reflash tool to change the ecm's mapping. And I put it on the VFR for 3 reasons, one to show that this technology does not have to enormous to work, two to show that even a bike can benefit from it and last because my bike is my primary vehicle. I'm sure that you would see noticable gains on your truck and on your RV the larger version of this cell (I have the 5x5 inch plate sized unit, but there is an 8x8 size unit as well). be sure to bring your ear plugs if you get the chance to see this cell demonstrated.

Hi gang. Well, I've been telling a few of you that I was going to install an on demand Hydroxy gas Generator unit onto my 5ht gen VFR. I've had conversations with tightwad about how many additional watts can the 5th gen's charging system put out to power the Cell. Codewriter along with a couple of othes have been a godsend with PC V information. This last Sunday, I finally got 99% of the installation finished and my VFR is back on the street. I can already hear the questions. What is HHO or Hydroxy gas? Why would you want the generator on your bike? Why/How did you get involved with this stuff? So let me lay out a little history and cover some of the basics. I was a Mechanical Engineering major in college, one of the Senior design teams that I Schlepped parts and turned wrenches for was doing research into Hydrogen powered cars. I had many conversations with the team Mentor and a couple of the smarter members of the team about what was wrong with both gasoline (and diesel) fuels, as well as ethanol fuel and hydrogen. The issues all boiled down to this handful of issues. One gasoline was originally a waste product in the petroleum refining, but it has high energy density (34.2 Mega Joules/liter, consumed in one second that's potential to do 45863hp of work). When oil was more available, it seemed like a good choice for fuel even though most IC engines waste 75-80% of the energy. Thanks to its high energy density, it's relatively slow burning, so it's easy to design a safe transport vessel for a mobile vehicle. Pump gas these days is a blend of up to 87 various hydrocarbons and other additives (most additives are more waste products from the refining column). Ethanol is not as dense (its only 24 Mega Joules/liter, which is about 32185 hp), but has the features of being a renewable natural product and it is a single hydrocarbon. The downsides are that it takes a lot of energy to distill the fuel, which drives up its unit cost. Its a less energy dense fuel compared to gas/diesel as well. There is also no infra-structure to supply it to the average consumer. Slow Stable burning, single compound, but hard to make and harder to find a commercial supplier. Hydrogen on the other hand is a rapidly burning clean fuel, explosive is how some people would describe it. Its hard to store since it has to be highly compressed (like 600+ psi) or chilled to a liquid (-435 F approximately). So tank for carrying Hydrogen is either very large and thick to withstand the pressures or its large due to is extreme levels of insulation. Even recent breakthroughs in storage with metal matrices have issues with repeatedly filling and discharging cycles. The simplest process to produce Hydrogen is electrolysis. You take a tank and fill it with water and a source of ions (something as simple as some table salt can work), install two plates and close the tank except for 2 ports over each plate to release the gas produced. Run direct electrical current through the "cell" and it will produce Hydrogen gas at one plate and oxygen at the other. Still that takes a precise voltage and current for the design of this two plate cell and its not very efficient. So Hydrogen is almost unstable, its hard and expensive to make in quantity, it takes more power to make than it gives back when burned and god help you figuring out how to put it in a tank for the car or bike!!! BUT just wait a minute, what happens if we allow the two gases to be collected at a common port?? Well now you have very reactive "monofuel" called HHO or hydroxy gas. Its a perfect stoichiometric blend of H2 and O2. If ignited it will rapidly burn and produce WATER!!!!. So if you change your generator cell design to a common outlet port, you can stack cells like a battery. Essentially planning the required input voltage and currents based on the plate materials, the area of the plates and the number of cell in a stack. And now these cells are still a bit more than you want to try to fit to entirely provide fuel to an ICE. But wait a minute. Adding a moderate amount of Hydroxy gas to a gasoline or diesel engine, can radically change the rate of combustion in the cylinder. It accelerates the rate of combustion of the primary hydrocarbon fuel (Gas, Diesel, Ethanol, etc). This leads to more pressure on the piston on the power stroke so there is more torque, less heating of the block, and less unburned hydrocarbon fuel going out the exhaust port. Less waste, less heating of the block and even some more power. OKAY Now That the science lecture is out of the way, on to the installation. Well I got my hands on One of these cells In fact the cell in top pictures IS my cell. The main tank for my bike was custom fabricated and I knew I'd need a small pump owing to the orientation of the cell to the tank. So I set out to install it under the seat on my 5th gen. I guess it was pretty typical as I had not done a much under there. the back and toward the front Well played around with it a bit and eventually ended up with this rough mock up (sorry the picture is blurry but I was holding parts with one hand and trying to snap a quick picture with the other. you'll see better in a moment. The first order of business was moving the relay I had installed to switch power to the heated grips. That went well and I ended up re-using it to switch a BlueSea's fuseblock on with the ignition. Next was moving the pcm forward Here the pcm is up and out, the great wiring harness unwrapping begins Onward we went. Trimming pretty much all the plastic ribs, the bump and most of the bottom of the pcm pocket from the undertray. Gotta love those oscillating flush cutters. Some carefully pushing and shoving, a little bit of drilling and lots and lots of wire dragging and I got to this point. here is where I located the pump, and right below it the new relay for the new stebel horn. Well there the cell sits roughly in the middle of undertray, right where the tool kit and a u-lock were supposed to go. Its strapped well down and the seat's hooks have been slightly trimmed at this point to allow it to sit there Now from the side you can see how high in the undertray the cell sits and you can also wonder where the main tank is as it's not visible from this angle. here are the shots of where main tank is and the fitting running to and from it. first the rear view then the view from below Note one large fitting to fill the tank, one large fitting running out to the pump and four small lines returning from the cell. This is four cell unit and each small hose runs all the way back to the tank to prevent current leakage between cells. Moving around to and up to the left side you can see the intake supply hose as it leaves on its journey to the bubbler/drier as heads to intake. you can also see the pcm relocated to just behind the battery along with the bluesea's fuseblock. The powercommander is stuck up under rubber skirt hanging off the tank hinge and will share that space with the autotune module when it arrives. Note the cables to the fuseblock are from my battery charger, I was using that to test out the cell for output and to search for leaks. these next four photos show just how little space is left between the cell and seat. Now lets head towards the front and you can see where I mounted the bubbler/drier. This has two purposes, one it scrubs any water vapor and/or traces of electrolyte out of the gas before it goes to the intake. Two, it acts as a backflash arrestor, HHO a very reactive gas and in a back fire will go all the way back to the main tank and possibly blow it up. If you have ever seen a nitrous oxide backfire, that's the kind of sudden reaction we don't want. So we put this inline. I'll make a nice bracket for it down line a bit (Like a couple of other things), but for now that's were it is going. Here is the final money shot, all buttoned up and idling away with HHO flowing When I did fire it up with the cell running (its drawing about 9.5 amps, that's counting the 1.2-1.5 amps that pump draws as well), the idle when warmed up is about 650 rpm higher than before and it takes for ever to get really warm. I'm thinking I have to bump the PCV's engagement temperature down from 165F. I still have to get the autotune installed and I need to work on a few other little bits. I also think I'm going to be going with a bunch of led bulbs to keep the power requirements down, but for now, I'm just trying to get out ride it. Mileage and dyno numbers will follow.

Sorry but, No, the autotune only works on the PC V. The PC V also adds features like Gear by Gear fuel mapping, and some other stuff.

Yup I have my PCV plugged in on my 5th gen, but the autotune module is not here yet.

good luck tomorrow Rob.

got my PCV for my 01 today, can't wait to get it installed. Hopefully I'll get it in this weekend. Did not get the autotune yet. Only one tuning farkle at a time right now.

Yeah I was thinking about something like this 4 into 1 manifold I just wasn't sure of the sizes, so I was asking what others have used. I wish that someone had a cut away of the throttle bodies that could show where all air passages enter into the intake tract.

Okay I'm following that. My question was were did you find the 4 into 1 "T"?? Auto parts store or somewhere else??

Well I see you are putting the bung in the tail end of the collector. I'm just going to swap out one of my stock o2's for now. Where did you find the 4 into 1 for the vacuum switch? I already have the switch from Coderighter, but was waiting on the PC V and autotune to arrive before installing it. I'm sitting here waiting for my pcv to arrive, and I should have already had the autotune in hand (damm ebay copyright policies). My underseat area is going to be a solid mass of equipment by the time I get all the stuff installed.

First for me would be bump that exhaust, And this is coming from they guy with stock can on his 01. Its just to hideous to look at.

I'm with you on this course of action Rob. I had the choice with the pelvis of having a large chunk of shrapnel removed or trimmed off as close to flush with the bone as possible. Removing it would have meant completely separating three fractures on that side of my pelvis and then god knows how many screws to pin it all back together. It also would have meant 12 weeks in traction and certainly complications in other parts of the leg. Cutting it flush meant that the surgeon got to move on and devote his time to other serious issues in the first 14 hour trip into the OR. So what if you have a limp? I did for so long I thought that I would have it forever, but its faded to not even noticeable in the last oh 5 years or so..

Yup that's the plain truth of it. Add in that any pump has an efficiency range that is speed dependent and the mechanical pump suddenly doesn't work so well. Its too slow and inefficient at idle, when you need good flow. And it's too fast at High rpm's causing more inefficiency due to cavitation. Not to mention the impeller on the stock pump is about as cheap as anyone can make one. A properly fitted electric cooling pump is a great thing. It not a 'free Lunch' thing so much as 'healthy lunch' kind of thing.

Yeah I've heard about the leg length issues from my surgeon for about 12 years now, but then I ask him what he intends to do about the fact that my pelvis is distorted and the fragments would have to come out to straightent it and he suddenly decides that if I'm not complaining to shut-up about it. Rob, if you can stand the discomfort and are satisfied with how you can walk, then stay the hell away from the OR.

Don't give up yet,,, The last quactor that I saw about my leg said that I might as well let him fuse the tib and fib at the knee as they were just going to develop necrosis anyway. I told him, that I wanted to think about it for a bit. That was 21 years ago. 11 Years ago, I had a doctor suggest that I let him fuse the last thoracic, first, second and third lumbar vertebra's together. He said it was the ONLY real solution to the compression fractures in my back. I kept putting him off as the time off my feet was not possible with my family at the time. It was also Fortunate a physio I knew was busy pointing out that I was overweight. Finally I got serious and lost nearly 100 lbs and suddenly my back was 99% better. (which reminds me, I've got to get this spare tire off). I may not be as young as I used to, nor are you, but we still can heal. If the injured bone is getting enough blood and is healthy, I'd STAY hesitant when it comes to letting them fuse joints. Better to prove those Practitioners of medicine wrong than let them make you handicapped forever.

Ouch is right, that is pretty bad. But Just so that you keep your head up, Mine started with a bunch of metal in it and then as they took that out, they glued, screwed, stapled and wrapped parts of my ankle back together. I think mine was worse as there was more damage to the talus and other bones, but only the small tab was fractured off the tibia. Keep at it my friend.

Thanks for the table. I'll be dumping that in as soon as I get the PC V. How did you make out on the vacuum switches? I'm going to need one for switching the autotune on and off as well as one for possibly switching the output of this project on and off. I might try to re-use the pair solenoid, driving by the switch to control the flow. If you have found a use for the extra switches, can I get the source so that I can order several for myself. I have a feeling I'll need several more of them in short order.