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Please help! Bike turns over but not firing/ not starting?


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You haven't specifically mentioned wether you've attempted the flooded start, I guess we just assume you've done it a few times!

 

I'd be pulling the plugs check for correct part number, see if they are fouled, or wet with fuel.

Even unplug the fuel pump electrical connector or pull the Fuel Cut Relay, crank the bike over a lot to vent the cylinders without the plugs. Confirm your spark with all 4 plugs at all cylinders.

Once you've established the state of the plugs, reinstall (or fit new ones)and see if it fires up.

 

Unless you're ECM is faulty, any sensor that is out of a known range or faulty should flag a trouble code. You appear to have no current faults!

Any safety logic issues will inhibit your ignition, you don't appear to have any issues with that either!

 

You do hear the fuel pump prime at every Ignition Switch turn ON, do you?

 

AND - You have confirmed you have a known good healthy battery, Yes????

With a voltmeter on the battery what does the voltage drop to as you crank the engine?

 

Try starting with a small amount of throttle opening any change?

 

Grasping at straws a bit, running out of ideas!

 

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Yeah, seems with fuel, spark and compression it should run!

Although it appears to have both symptoms off too much and too little fuel at same time!


Compression is also untested and unverified.

That seems unlikely that all 4 cylinders would lose all compression though.
When my VF500 had hole blasted through one piston, it was still running and wasn't noticeable... 

until one piston seized and snapped con-rod through side of engine case...

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Hey guys, 

 

I have done multiple flooded start procedures with no result coming from it. 

 

I don't have any vacuum tester or compression testing kits. 

 

I have started with the fuel system troubleshooting.

 

Step 1:  MAP sensor connection inspection: Turn off ignition, disconnect MAP Sensor connector, check for loose or poor connection on sensor,

Reconnect MAP Sensor, place motorcycle stand down, Start engine,(obviously not firing when I do this), is the MIL Blinking?

 

Answer: No, with the bike as is.

 

                (Yes, if I jumper for error codes?)

 

Step two:MAP Sensor power input line                               voltage  inspection:

 

Turn off ignition, disconnect MAP sensor connector, measure voltage at wire harness side. + To Yellow/Red terminal, - to ground.

Is the voltage between 4.75 - 5.25V?

 

Answer: No, when ignition off.

 

                (Yes,: 4.98V when ignition on).

 

I have not done any further tests as those first two show loose connection, open or short in yellow/red wire, and/or loose or poor contact with the ecm connectors. 

 

I eagerly await your responses to this information. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Phye07 said:

Hey guys, 

 

I have done multiple flooded start procedures with no result coming from it. 

 

I don't have any vacuum tester or compression testing kits. 

 

I have started with the fuel system troubleshooting.

 

Step 1:  MAP sensor connection inspection: Turn off ignition, disconnect MAP Sensor connector, check for loose or poor connection on sensor,

Reconnect MAP Sensor, place motorcycle stand down, Start engine,(obviously not firing when I do this), is the MIL Blinking?

 

Answer: No, with the bike as is.

 

                (Yes, if I jumper for error codes?)

 

Step two:MAP Sensor power input line                               voltage  inspection:

 

Turn off ignition, disconnect MAP sensor connector, measure voltage at wire harness side. + To Yellow/Red terminal, - to ground.

Is the voltage between 4.75 - 5.25V?

 

Answer: No,w hen ignition off.

 

                (Yes,: 4.98V when ignition on).

 

I have not done any further tests as those first two show loose connection, open or short in yellow/red wire, and/or loose or poor contact with the ecm connectors. 

 

I eagerly await your responses to this information. 

 

 

Sorry mate but you don't have a fault code for the MAP sensor and it won't cause the engine to not start!

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So to clarify with you Grum,

 

Having no MIL Blinking after the first step means there are faults or are you saying there are "no" faults, i.e. this shouldn't effect it starting? 

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All I'm saying is that it would seem pointless to pursue a MAP issue.

1 - You don't have an active fault code for it.

2  - A faulty MAP sensor will not stop your engine from at least starting.

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From what the diagnosis so far has told me, is that there is one of these.:

 

show loose connection, open or short in yellow/red wire, and/or loose or poor contact with the ecm connectors

 

Am I / is the result, in taking the information from the service manual with the results observed, correct?

 

Should I continue with the rest of the procedures? Even though I don't have a vacuum tester or a testing ECM harness. 

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26 minutes ago, Phye07 said:

From what the diagnosis so far has told me, is that there is one of these.:

 

show loose connection, open or short in yellow/red wire, and/or loose or poor contact with the ecm connectors

 

Am I / is the result, in taking the information from the service manual with the results observed, correct?

 

The test assumes you HAVE a fault code of 1. You don't have this fault code!

So by disconnecting the electrical plug then reconnecting it and with power on, If the MIL is now not flashing a code 1. Then that means you had determined a loose plug which you now don't have! And the ECM is satisfied.

 

There is no point running the fault code diagnosis tests if you don't have a fault code to start with!!

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Ok, thanknyou very much for clarifying that for me.

I'm just pulling all the spark plugs and giving them a clean. They all spark, but just checking them all again.

 

I do however keep draining the battery and am requiring full charges every night. 

 

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Mate be careful cleaning iridium plugs. Check they are correct part number. Check if they are black with carbon or wet with fuel, have a close look at the plugs from cylinders 3 and 4 are they particularly wet. As mentioned a ruptured diaphragm of the FPR will dump excess fuel into those cylinders via the vacuum hoses.

 

Crank the engine over with the plugs out and with full throttle incase it was flooded hopefully this will clear any excess fuel.

 

Again you havent answered. Do you hear the fuel pump prime every time you turn ignition to ON?

 

Make sure all 4 plugs for all cylinders spark.

 

ALSO is your bike wiring all stock standard? Any modifications at all?

 

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Hey mate,

The fuel pump always primes and is delivering fuel to the valves. I'm sure I did mention it in the earlier threads. Regardless, the fuel pump primes and pumps fuel👍.

 

The plugs were black and had oil/fuel on the electrodes and protrusions. I'd be assuming from flossing the engine. A couple of times now.

 

I've come inside as it's snowing right now. 🥶

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Fault codes are not end-all miracle in diagnostics. They only indicate outright hardware failures and provides start on where to look for issues.  However, codes will not show if something is still within range, but mis-adjusted. You can still have major problems that prevents the bike from starting without any codes showing. For example, MAP and TPS. Their usable output range is typically 0,5-5v. You'll get a fault-code under following conditions:

 

- loose or poor contact at sensor

- open or short on connector wires

- faulty sensor

 

ECU throws code IF output signal is not withing 0,5-5v range. However, if vacuum-hose is disconnected or leaking, MAP sensor will report 5v when it should be 2,7v at idle. ECU has no idea vacuum hose is disconnected, it thinks engine is at WOT and injects max-fuel. That's why there's additional mechanical test of measuring actual vacuum in manifold. Physical testing will always be more accurate than fault-codes.

 

Same with TPS, it outputs 0,4-4,8v from closed to WOT. Unless you have obvious hardware failures like broken wire or TPS itself, ECU will never know that TPS is rotated 10-degrees out of line. Same thing with temp-sensors. Faulty wiring or sensors can report engine's at 100C when it's cold and ECU will just operate like engine's at 100C with improper fuel & ignition values. Just because there's no codes, doesn't mean you don't have sensorissues. You can pretty much ignore looking at fault-codes completely as testing and measurements will always show actual conditions of engine and sensors.

 

There's no error code that shows you've got worn rings, mis-adjusted valves or hole in piston. ECU has no idea. Only good 'ol-fashioned testing with gauges like mechanics have used for past 100-yrs will work. If you're reporting oil on spark plugs, there may be some issues internally. Time to rent compression-tester and see actual numbers. Had an engine come in once that wasn't starting. It had fuel, correct fuel-pressure, proper flow from injectors, it had spark, all sensors tested fine, no codes.  Scratched my head for while on why it wouldn't start. Did compression-test and it was 0-psi across board!!! Took look inside and it was missing pistons and rods!!! :blink:

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4 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Fault codes are not end-all miracle in diagnostics. They only indicate outright hardware failures and provides start on where to look for issues.  However, codes will not show if something is still within range, but mis-adjusted. You can still have major problems that prevents the bike from starting without any codes showing. For example, MAP and TPS. Their usable output range is typically 0,5-5v. You'll get a fault-code under following conditions:

 

- loose or poor contact at sensor

- open or short on connector wires

- faulty sensor

 

ECU throws code IF output signal is not withing 0,5-5v range. However, if vacuum-hose is disconnected or leaking, MAP sensor will report 5v when it should be 2,7v at idle. ECU has no idea vacuum hose is disconnected, it thinks engine is at WOT and injects max-fuel. That's why there's additional mechanical test of measuring actual vacuum in manifold. Physical testing will always be more accurate than fault-codes.

 

Same with TPS, it outputs 0,4-4,8v from closed to WOT. Unless you have obvious hardware failures like broken wire or TPS itself, ECU will never know that TPS is rotated 10-degrees out of line. Same thing with temp-sensors. Faulty wiring or sensors can report engine's at 100C when it's cold and ECU will just operate like engine's at 100C with improper fuel & ignition values. Just because there's no codes, doesn't mean you don't have sensorissues. You can pretty much ignore looking at fault-codes completely as testing and measurements will always show actual conditions of engine and sensors.

 

There's no error code that shows you've got worn rings, mis-adjusted valves or hole in piston. ECU has no idea. Only good 'ol-fashioned testing with gauges like mechanics have used for past 100-yrs will work. If you're reporting oil on spark plugs, there may be some issues internally. Time to rent compression-tester and see actual numbers. Had an engine come in once that wasn't starting. It had fuel, correct fuel-pressure, proper flow from injectors, it had spark, all sensors tested fine, no codes.  Scratched my head for while on why it wouldn't start. Did compression-test and it was 0-psi across board!!! Took look inside and it was missing pistons and rods!!! :blink:

 

Well the MAP sensor won't prevent the engine from starting. (As per the Starter Valve Synch process!)

 

But, if what you are generally saying about the abilty of the ECM to either detect or not detect a faulty sensor signal is true. Then the most important sensor for a Cold Start is the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor ECT. Perhaps the OP may have disturbed this while removing the throttle bodies?

Perhaps the OP has also disturbed the fast idle wax unit, effecting the Starter Valves from opening?

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so hard to tell without numbers. Ambient outside temps might give us a clue. It's about 5C here and none of my carbureted bikes will start without full choke. 

 

His initial report of it working one day and then not the next might point to an EFI issue? Doesn't seem like anything mechanical would fail overnight.

 

Also report of completely draining battery and having to constantly charge it is a clue. Not sure to what though....

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Ok gentlemen, there is fire.

 

After digging and digging, we've found it. I was able to borrow a vacuum gauge. 👍 

 

 

After so many floodings and flood procedures, I decided to just get all new speak plugs. They were always oil/fuel covered and had to be cleaned off. The new ones in this started some coughing and sputtering.

 

I removed the air box again and check all the throttle bodies to make sure they were all secure.  Restarting the bike it fires but wouldn't run, so went over the vacuum lines again. The map sensor hose pressure was zero, so  I took the throttle bodies off again to check where else the hose was going too. 

 

"THEN I FOUND IT": A random 2mm hose spliced into the the vacuum lines. It had been hidden by being taped on with the throttle body wiromf/ FI wiring.

 

The previous owner has put one of those shitty Scott chain oilers on the bike. I domy use it. 

 

Who ever installed it had spliced a T section into the vacuum lines underneath the throttle body, but because the had taped it all up with the wiring harness I never saw it. Who knows why they did that? I guess it was to stop it from falling off and dripping the pressure, (which it did). 

 

I pulled the t section out, joined the two hoses and BOOM! FIRE!!!! 

 

Whoever fitted that ridiculous oiler onto the bike added it to the vacuum lines. I want to find them and give them a proper beating.

Who tapes an auxilry hollow tube for an oiler onto the MAP sensor Vacuum line. Morons. 

 

So after all the testing and strippimg things down and  reassembling, we have ignition. 

 

 

 

 

I must add though, now it's running again, I have alot of moisture coming out of the cans. Until it's up to about  80°C there is white moist vapour coming out. Didn't have that before. Once it's hot the moist white smoke/steam is gone but I don't like moisture coming out of my cans. 

 

The fuel is shell optimax 99 octane E85.

 

 

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Hey, hey, good job tracking that down!!! :)  Yeah, 0-vacuum would cause too-high pressure from FPR. Not to mention tricking ECU into thinking you're at WOT and injecting way too much petrol. Darn, fouled-plugs should've tipped me off.

 

25 minutes ago, Phye07 said:

Whoever fitted that ridiculous oiler onto the bike added it to the vacuum lines. I want to find them and give them a proper beating.

Who tapes an auxilry hollow tube for an oiler onto the MAP sensor Vacuum line. Morons. 

Yeah, I want to beat every previous-owner of every single bike I've every purchased. Wiring messes.... horrible... They all need educational beatings!!!

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DannoXYZ and Grum, I will post again in a couple of days and touch base with how it's going. 

 

The two of you are an invaluable asset to anyone one here. 

 

I appreciate the time you've given up helping a stranger. You have restored my faith in my fellow man ..👍

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On 2/13/2021 at 4:39 AM, Phye07 said:

The fuel is shell optimax 99 octane E85

 

Glad you have it sorted. BUT.....Don't Go Riding YET!!!

 

Sure wished you mentioned your fuel type EARLIER.

 

WHY WHY WHY are you using E85?

Your bike is designed to run on nothing higher than E10. 

E85 should never be used in older cars or bikes!!

 

As mentined earlier a couple of times about your fuel, how being bad or of the Ethanol type, sadly you just said "it was good". YOUR FUEL WAS NOT GOOD.

 

Hi octane E85 would Definitely Not help the engine start in such very cold conditions due to its lower volatility. And as to why a MAP sensor with no vacuum didn't flag a trouble code is a mystery, it should have displayed a code 2 error with zero vacuum! 

 

Syphon what fuel you can from the tank ASAP then fill it with the lowest (preferably zero) Ethanol content fuel you can find.

 

E85 is absolute SHIT for an early VFR. For many reasons!! Do NOT use it. It will damage your engine, if it hasn't already done so!

 

"Ethanol has a corrosive action on fuel-system components, magnesium, aluminium and rubber. Running E85 on older model engines without tuning and replacing some components will ruin the engine in short time. Replacing fuel hoses, fuel pumps, gaskets, seals, fuel filters, fuel injectors, throttle bodies, etc."

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On 2/13/2021 at 4:39 AM, Phye07 said:

Whoever fitted that ridiculous oiler onto the bike added it to the vacuum lines. I want to find them and give them a proper beating.

Who tapes an auxilry hollow tube for an oiler onto the MAP sensor Vacuum line. Morons. 

 

Yeah agree! Probably not as bad as the "moron" that puts E85 into a VFR!!!!:mad:

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Stochiometric ratio is 9.86:1 for E85 compared to 14.7:1 for gasoline.

Meaning you have to inject 50% more E85 (or fit 50% larger injectors). 

Only modern engines with flex-fuel sensor and pre-programmed maps for E85 can use it!!!

There is absolutely zero benefit!!!

You'd run seriously lean on E85 and end up blowing up engine!!!! :excl:

 

DO NOT RUN ENGINE ON E85!!!! DUMP IT OUT!!!

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