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Please help! Bike turns over but not firing/ not starting?


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I have recently posted, changed my thermostat, had a vacuum leak after re-installing the throttle bodies. The issue was solved with help of the forum,( re-tightened the throttle body boots/rubber rings).  Bike ran perfectly again. 

 

I've come out this morning to ride and the idle was low. After a couple of minutes the bike started to miss then cut out. 

 

It would cough and spark for a few tries to restart. Now there is no spark at all. The bike has power and turns over, but won't fire?

 

Fuel system is working, fuel is being pumped into the head,(checked that removing the air box and could see fuel spraying onto the valves. Check every connection, fuses, vacuum hoses, but still no fire. 

 

Totally stumped and losing my riding time. 

 

Please help

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Have you actually confirmed there is no spark?

 

Try raising your sidestand, does it start?

 

What is the status of your FI Light? Any flashing code? Or does it normally cycle on then off at switch on.

 

Could you have a condensation issue or bad fuel?

 

After all that cranking and not starting you would now probably have a flooded engine. So try the flooded start procedure and make sure you have a healthy battery.

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Hey Grum,

 

Need an extension to extract the plugs. We're still in  lockdown here so have had to order one online. Will be waiting until next week before it arrives. 

*No flashing codes, the light cycles normally.  *I've checked the tank a few times.

*The bikes on the centre stand and checked the kick stand switch more than once. 

*The engine will be flooded as I was cranking with the air box off to check injectors were pumping. I.e. the fuel pump/injectors are functioning.

*Taken down and reattached all connections on the bike.

*Checked every fuse on the bike.

Also going to use a multi.meter to check continuity and voltages. 

*Battery is solid.

 

Was wondering if there was a simple answer as I've probably missed something. 

 

👍

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To clear flooded-engine, twist throttle to 100%, then crank engine for 5-sec.

 

1. No need to remove plugs to check for spark. Just pull one spark-plug wire and insert spare spark-plug into it. Ground case of plug to bolt on engine and crank. Do you see spark? What colour is it?

 

2. Measure side-stand switch's continuity to chassis-ground. Up and down positions.

 

3. Measure resistance of all fuses across legs. If I had nickel for every time I've heard, "fuse looks OK", but actually didn't conduct electricity....

 

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Having the throttle fully open while cranking shuts off the injectors and purges the engine of excess fuel.

Just out of curiosity. Place the bike in gear, Sidestand up, clutch pulled in. Try starting, does the bike crank over?

 

IMG_1011.PNG

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Also make sure vacuum hoses are connected to MAP-sensor and FPR.

I put little zip-ties on ends of these hoses to verify they are firmly attached

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Danno and Grum, 

 

I really appreciate the time you two give in helping.outnyoir fellow man. I wish there was a way I could ready the kindness. It's good to know there are people who want to just help each other out.

 

I'll post again in a few days. My hands are full.ober the weekend and won't have a chance to do more work until Monday.

 

You're good people.👍

 

 

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Hey DannoXYZ and Grum,

 

*So today I was able to check spark. It is sparking with no faults.

 

*I checked resistance on the fuses. They are all good with no faults  

 

* Checked the continuity of the side stand. It's is all in working order with no faults

 

*After letting the bike sit for a couple of days, there is more compression due to oil now reaching the rings. The flooding obviously dropped the compression by removing oil.

 

*Checked all vacuum hoses are attached and working correctly, I assume they are as there seems to be no leaking.

 

*I have taken out the battery and am fully charging it again as multiple turn overs have drained it.

 

Any further input will be appreciated.

 

Regards, Phye07 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey, 

 

The spark is blue. I tested by removing the coil and using a screwdriver and the frame. Cranked the engine and observed a blue spark. 

Plug were done in July last year. Denso iridium. 

 

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4 hours ago, Phye07 said:

*After letting the bike sit for a couple of days, there is more compression due to oil now reaching the rings. The flooding obviously dropped the compression by removing oil.

What compression numbers# did you get?

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Did you actually jumper ECU to show codes? 

Do you have vacuum gauge?

Do you have multimeter with peak-voltage function?
Do you have oscilloscope?

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Once your battery is fully charged.

Go through the Flooded Start procedure a few times. Let's know how that goes.

 

P.s. If you had any current EFI fault codes they would be displayed/flashing while your ignition is on with side stand down.

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19 minutes ago, Grum said:

P.s. If you had any current EFI fault codes they would be displayed/flashing while your ignition is on with side stand down.

Oh, no jumpering needed? I must be looking at wrong manual.

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1 hour ago, DannoXYZ said:

Oh, no jumpering needed? I must be looking at wrong manual.

I remember doing starter valve synch on my 6gen. Because the MAP and IAT were unplugged 

during the process and my side stand was down, these error codes were flashing. Once the process was completed and the MAP and IAT were plugged in, there were no flashing codes (no current/active faults) and everything was normal, however, no doubt those error codes would have been stored and I could have retrieved or deleted them via the shorting link process if needed.

IMG_1015.PNG

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49 minutes ago, Grum said:

I remember doing starter valve synch on my 6gen. Because the MAP and IAT were unplugged 

during the process and my side stand was down, these error codes were flashing. Once the process was completed and the MAP and IAT were plugged in, there were no flashing codes(no current faults) and everything was normal, however, no doubt those error codes would have been stored and I could have retrieved or deleted them via the shorting link process if needed.

IMG_1015.PNG

Ah thank you! I don't have 6th-gen to play with, so just going by manual. There are numerous errors in manuals that's not updated with each new generation.

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Hi Phye07.

More thoughts about your issue, and if the Flooded Start procedure hasn't helped, then.......

 

Your fault description of the bike starting then shortly running rough and stalling is typical of fuel starvation, fuel flooding OR bad fuel.

 

You've confirmed your injectors are working, you have ignition and your plugs are relatively new, you have no EFI Fault Codes, your battery is good. 

So you should have combustion!!!!

 

ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE....you don't have any bad fuel issues or contamination. If your fuel isn't fresh and the tank is say half full and weather conditions are just right you may have a condensation issues. Also if you are using an Ethanol blended fuel this could exacerbate the stuation as Ethanol is hygroscopic. I've experienced condensation issues and it caused rough slow idling, in bad cases your engine will not run!

You could also have a very dirty fuel filter. So fuel pressure and flow may need checking.

 

With respect to excess fuel, are you smelling raw fuel from the exhaust? If so this situation can be caused by a ruptured Fuel Pressure Regulator diaphragm, this dumps excess fuel into cylinders 3 and 4 via the vacuum line connected to the FPR.

 

Good luck.

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Hey guys, 

 

As always, thank you so much for your input and time. Your helpfulness is not unappreciated. It is welcomed. 

 

Firstly,

To answer your question DannoXYZ, 

 

*I have since jumpered the ECU and retrieved the error codes.

*I do not have a compression gauge. I did the old school trick of placing my hand over the intakes and feeling for compression. All suck down hard and effectively. 

*I have a good multimeter

*No, I do not have an oscilloscope 👎 wouldn't know where to start with one. 

 

Secondly,

I've run through all the error codes on the bike. Checked them against the service manual and they are what would be concurrent with everything that I had unplugged whilst doing the throttle bodies and testing. Noting out of the ordinary.

If you'd like to know, they were:

1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 21, 22, 23, 24.

 

Everything that would cause errors due to removing the throttle body and all the applicable sensors. Obviously while having power to the bike these have caused such error to the ecu.

 

The fuel in the bike is good, it is pumping to the valves without interruption. 

 

The bike also hasn't fired since it first cut out completely last Friday.  After it cut out, I then tried to restart it  twice. That is when it had some coughing spluttering. 

But, since those first to attempts to get an ignition, there has been none at all. No coughs, no sputters, no firing of any sort there is no fuel smell in the exhaust. Well, that I can tell. It is super windy here and now also -2°.

 

I am totally stumped. 

 

I guess it's time to call someone and shell out who knows how much?

 

 

 

 

 

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We've just started to troubleshoot!

 

1 = MAP sensor connector issue or bad MAP sensor

2 = loose or leaking MAP sensor hose, or bad MAP sensor

7 = loose or poor contact ECT sensor connector, or bad ECT sensor

8 = loose or poor contact TP sensor connector, or bad TP sensor

9 = loose or poor contact IAT sensor, or bad IAT sensor

12 = loose or poor contact #1 injector connector

13 = loose or poor contact #2 injector connector

14 = loose or poor contact #3 injector connector

15 = loose or poor contact #4 injector connector

21 = faulty #1 O2-sensor

22 = faulty #2 O2-sensor

23 = faulty #1 O2-sensor heater

24 = faulty #2 O2-sensor heater

 

I usually never run engine without everything completely assembled. So now ECU's way confused and is taking massive evasive action to compensate. Fuel-trim is probably maxed out super-rich. Ok, now that you've put everything back together, clear the codes and see what's left.

 

Things aren't black & white with these things. We live in an analogue world with gradients. So get used to measuring and coming up with numbers. Exact values of those numbers point to where problems are. There's difference between 12.9v vs. 12.6v measured at battery. There's difference between 12.0:1 vs. 16.0:1 AFR.

 

Here's an example. I got call from guy who's bike just quit on way home. Crank, crank, crank, would not run again. He pushed it back and started ripping it apart replacing plugs, wires, coils, battery, ECU, injectors, FPR, fuel-pump, etc. I asked him how much gas was in tank and he sent me picture of gas-cap!!! Not, "I just put in 15-litres 5-minutes ago" or "shows 1/4-full on gauge". Having numeric target would tell us he ran out of petrol.

 

If you want to pay someone to do what you're going to do anyway, that's OK. They're just going to consult manual and reset codes on page 5-8, then proceed to measure voltages of various sensors, MAP and TPS being extremely important. Along with measuring vacuum going to MAP to verify it's actually reporting what it's supposed to. Or you can follow manual and do exact same testing yourself.

 

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Hey DannoXYZ,

 

I have been readimg through the manual also, but am thinking maybe there is something I've missed? To have fuel, air and spark, we should have ignition? 

 

Anything else you can throw at me I will gladly honour and do that procedure.

 

 

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What codes are left?

Start on page 5-14 and do all tests in order. Extremely important to report what voltages you measured in each step.

 

It's very likely wiring may have gotten broken, or a connector pin bent, or something slightly tweaked. Measured numbers from testing flow-chart will cause problem area to jump out at you. Like a lion chewing on your leg, can't miss it!!!

 

Somewhere, you'll measure 0.0v or 4.652v when it should be 4.921v and that's the smoking gun clue!!!

 

ECU is like blind man sitting in dark room trying to mix drinks. He needs someone with eyes to tell him how much rum to pour and when to flick lighter. For ages, data such as engine-position and speed was used to determine when to fire plugs. We had recent case where trigger-bumps passing under pick-up coil was damaged and ECU had no idea where TDC was.

 

With conversion from carbs to EFI, even more data is needed: air-temp (proxy for air-density), engine coolant-temp, throttle-position, air-pressure, altitude, and even phase-of-moon is used to calculate how much air mass engine has just sucked in. With correct data, the blind man knows how long to push the injector-button to send correct amount of petrol into engine to match air-flow. If any one of these sensors is not operating properly, you're gonna end up with an incorrect amount of petrol. So how do we know if sensors are working properly?

 

We're like blind man (ECU), we have no idea what's wrong with your bike. It's up to you to give us data that will help us "see" the problem. Give us some measurement numbers! :)

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