Burnt Main Fuse B + Idle RPM problem

[Guest craigthomson]

Hey Guys,

Been reading this site for a while and recently been lookup up about the various electrical problems that people have experienced. I have recently encountered an issue with my 2006 VFR800, and thought I would ask here for some opinions.

The bike is second hand, I'm the third own, based on what I can see the modifications that have been done to it are: Staintune exhausts, braided brake lines, powercommander III.

Not to long ago I was having a problem where at random on occassion the idle would drop to about 500RPM and even had it stall the engine once. So I took it in for a service and decided to have a major service done to see if there was any potential problems with it. The mechanic gave it the all clear but I did notice that they did adjust the idle speed from 1k to 1.5k. Didn't have any idle problems with the bike since that service.

On Wednesday last week, I was commuting home from work and as I was pulling up at a red light, the engine cut out on me, I was fortunate that I had just finished pulling the clutch in and had a bit of momentum so I could continue to pull over to the side of the road. After that and checking the bike quickly, decided to start the engine up again and proceed to get home as I wasn't far.

After getting home and putting the bike in the garage, I could detect a faint burning smell which smelt sorta like wiring/electrics burning. So I turned the engine off and decided to check it out in the morning as it was too late of a night for me to really look into it.

The next morning I decided to start the bike up again to see if I can detect a problem, once again I could smell the faint burning smell, but after 5 seconds of idle speed with the engine warming up, the idle all of a sudden shoots up to about 3 to 4k, thus freaking me out at this point so I turned the engine off. Decided to ride my other bike that morning to work (GS500, so glad I didnt sell it yet)

Got home that night after purchasing a multimeter. So I stripped the right and left hand fairing off, the seat, took the batter out, the battery was fine, fully charge and has voltage of 12.7. Had a look around the rest of the bike, then I moved the Main Fuse B and discovered that is where the burning smell was coming from.

Given that Ive had past idle problems, the Main Fuse B and/or its socket being melted/burned and the engine shooting the idle right up when it was warming up, any thoughts what the exact problem could be ?

I'm a little reluctant in starting the engine again just in case of further melting/burning of the electrical system, I have booked it in for diagnosis with the bike shop on tuesday, but if I could figure out the problem is before then it would be a bonus because it would then mean I should get similar results from the mechanic.

[gll429]

BIG cup of coffee!!

this was for the R/R.. however.. it does relate to your problem.. bad gounding!!

you need to cut away the melted block and see what wires fused together.. and repair them or if the SHOULD be together.. soldier them!

looking at the pic you have.. it looks like just 2 wires. one very thick goping to the fuse and one thing one. getting to much juice and frying! if this is the case.. replace the thin wire with a thick one.. or double it up as below..

have fun! :fing02:

todays how to.. save your R/R hopefully from going bonkers on you. :computer-noworky:

this is my personal set up that i have done to many bikes with great results.

this his HOOPDC'S 95 vfr750. :fing02:

Regulator rectifiers absorb 3 strong alternating currents (AC)

from the stators yellow wires, and change them to a steady stream of direct current (DC) via the red wire. .

if the R/R gets to much juice it sends the overflow to the ground with the green wire..

however.. the green wire is kinda wimpy and runs to the main harness and meets a bunch of other wires with juice going through them..so the flow gets a bit hot...

and heat build up is what kills the R/R

ok.. take a sip of coffee...breath..

if your not deaf like me ..put on AC/DC's "long way to the top"

sooooo, what you need!

i am assuming you know who to solder and have an mini or electric soldering iron,..if not.. get one and practice a bit.

you need green wire,eyelets, a brown wire, connection ends, a computer fan, heat transfer compound, a wire brush and a pick. :comp13:

take r/r and stator wires ..disconnect them. take the pick and remove the tanks from the blocks and scrub them clean!

now.. take the eyelets and solder them to the green wires. if your wire is thin you can double up or triple if needed.

make 3 off them about 5 inches long.. you can cut them short if needed.

find your tail connection and splice in one of the eyelet extensions and bolt it to the frame .. taking a little paint of helps with the connection. do this with the green wire coming from the R/R and the bunch of green wires up at the front of the bike.

take your computer fan..(this one from a dumpster..RECYCLE!)

and fit it over your R/R.. you may need to make a mounts for it.. this one was perfect.. just needed a shave to open the spot for the plug.

drill the mounting holes.. then remove the R/R and put lots of heat transfer compound on it.. this is just a dab.. dont be shy with it. :biggrin:

mount your R/R and fan.. ground the fan neg wire and and the connection plug on the positive. splice in the brown wire to the power wire for your brake light. brown is power accessory on hondas. :fing02:

and your done! :bliss:

this may seem like overkill... but overkill in the garage is MUCH better that a dead bike on the road! :fing02:

[Guest]

I had the same issue. Order a new sub harness from Honda. It comes with a much larger gauge short wire than the OEM. They changed the harness since 2006.

Additionally, order one of the VFR harness from "Wire My Bike" website. This will keep this from happening again.

No need to replace the regulator unless it is burned or fails the diagnostic test.

Since replacing the short harness I haven't had any issues with the issue.

Additionally, make sure your battery is in good shape. Take it have a load test performed on it. If it is good make sure you keep it charged up when the bike isn't in use. If the battery is very low, I feel it puts additional pressure on the electrical system causing the inferior wires of the OEM system to heat up and ultimately melt the wires.

Joe

[Guest]

Well decided to get off my arse and test the voltages on my bike, with a little help from the missus because trying to hold the multimeter connectors and look at the rpm and the voltage reading while twisting the throttle was too difficult by myself

So with the Stator disconnected from the r/r the following AC voltages I'm getting from the stator through the rev ranges are from idle of 21 volts through to 166 volts at max rpm on the motorcycle

Then I hooked the stator back up to the r/r and left the r/r disconnected from the rest of the electrical system, the voltages I'm getting from the r/r is 20 volts DC at idle and that increases to 22 volts DC at maximum rpm on the motorcycle.

If I understand correctly the r/r is only suppose to output a DC voltage of around 14 volts is this not correct ?

If the r/r is fried and supplying to much voltage to the wiring system then this would explain the melting of fuse and its wires.

Will have to get the mechanic to check all my wiring now to see if anything else is melted, sigh.....

Oh and I'm miss riding my vfr800 very much atm :(, currently I have a gs500 to ride but it just doesn't do it for me :(

[Guest]

Well decided to get off my arse and test the voltages on my bike, with a little help from the missus because trying to hold the multimeter connectors and look at the rpm and the voltage reading while twisting the throttle was too difficult by myself

So with the Stator disconnected from the r/r the following AC voltages I'm getting from the stator through the rev ranges are from idle of 21 volts through to 166 volts at max rpm on the motorcycle

Then I hooked the stator back up to the r/r and left the r/r disconnected from the rest of the electrical system, the voltages I'm getting from the r/r is 20 volts DC at idle and that increases to 22 volts DC at maximum rpm on the motorcycle.

If I understand correctly the r/r is only suppose to output a DC voltage of around 14 volts is this not correct ?

If the r/r is fried and supplying to much voltage to the wiring system then this would explain the melting of fuse and its wires.

Will have to get the mechanic to check all my wiring now to see if anything else is melted, sigh.....

Oh and I'm miss riding my vfr800 very much atm :(, currently I have a gs500 to ride but it just doesn't do it for me :(

i'm thinking there is a typo on your open-circuit output voltage on the stator, should be 66 volts AC, not 166.?

The open-circuit DC output voltage of the RR doesn't really mean anything because it needs to be loaded for a good measurement. i.e. needs to be hooked up in the circuit with normal electrical loads, but i think yours is probably okay.

To me the battery voltage of 12.7 VDC unloaded indicates a weak battery, but there again it needs to be loaded for a good measurement, e.g. put the voltmeter on the battery terminals and watch the voltage when you engage the starter button with the key on. The starter puts the greatest load on a battery, and if the battery is weak then the voltage will be pulled way down during this test.

I think the thin wire is the likely culprit combined with a weak battery--the RR is sending charging current to try to keep the battery up to normal (~13.6-14.4 volts DC) and the female spade lug terminal inside the plastic connector is not making a good contact and generating lots of heat from the high resistance at the terminal and the high charging current. The heating power is proportional to the current squared times the resistance value (P=I^2 * R), so an increase in either of these makes it hot.

Inspect the spade lugs at the fuse if possible to see if there is any looseness or dirt/corrosion that is making a poor electrical connection (i.e high resistance), repair or replace. Also check loaded battery voltage and replace if weak.

[Bad Boy]

Kennybobby is right on here. (Ignore post #2 it applies to a different problem on a different bike) For voltage tests downstream of the RR everything needs to be connected.

The 30 amp fuse that melted connects the RR (power source) to the battery. Connectors heat up because they are undersized, loose, corroded, or dirty (too much resistance) or there is too much current (the battery is getting weaker, drawing more current to recharge)

For the 6 gen VFR this 30 amp fuse connector is undersized so when the load or resistance increases it heats up. Even the upgraded OEM harness is insufficient. I replaced mine with an automotive type heavy duty 30 amp fuse holder, heavier gage wire about 2" on each end. One end soldered to the adjacent white connector. The other end solder spliced into the red wire.

I got something like this at the local auto parts store, link: http://tinyurl.com/2cu5qvb

I have not had any problems since replacing mine after it got too hot, 30k miles ago.

Have your battery charged and then have it load tested. Replace if fails test. You can not diagnose with a bad battery.

Check installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, should be 13.7-15 v

If you continue to have idle speed issues you may have something else wrong, maybe a grounding issue. Let us know what happens.

[gll429]

Kennybobby is right on here. (Ignore post #2 it applies to a different problem on a different bike) For voltage tests downstream of the RR everything needs to be connected.

The 30 amp fuse that melted connects the RR (power source) to the battery. Connectors heat up because they are undersized, loose, corroded, or dirty (too much resistance) or there is too much current (the battery is getting weaker, drawing more current to recharge)

For the 6 gen VFR this 30 amp fuse connector is undersized so when the load or resistance increases it heats up. Even the upgraded OEM harness is insufficient. I replaced mine with an automotive type heavy duty 30 amp fuse holder, heavier gage wire about 2" on each end. One end soldered to the adjacent white connector. The other end solder spliced into the red wire.

I got something like this at the local auto parts store, link: http://tinyurl.com/2cu5qvb

I have not had any problems since replacing mine after it got too hot, 30k miles ago.

Have your battery charged and then have it load tested. Replace if fails test. You can not diagnose with a bad battery.

Check installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, should be 13.7-15 v

If you continue to have idle speed issues you may have something else wrong, maybe a grounding issue. Let us know what happens.

DUH!! your last line grounding issue! if you read the post you will see i told what the problem was and how to fix it.. and MORE!

dont ignore the post!!

DO IT ON EVERY FREAKING HONDA YOU HAVE :rolleyes:

[spud786]

your posted pictures is a 5th gen, its confusing to a guy working on a 6th gen, but your basic direction is understood by those who are familiar , if not its going to be very confusing to the OP

[gll429]

your posted pictures is a 5th gen, its confusing to a guy working on a 6th gen, but your basic direction is understood by those who are familiar , if not its going to be very confusing to the OP

i posted pix of a 3rd gen.. who cares?? its the same process.. if the pix confuse anyone.. they dont belong working on a bike..let alone riding one. :goofy:

[spud786]

I just hope he's not looking for his computer fan or his 6th gen

[Bad Boy]

your posted pictures is a 5th gen, its confusing to a guy working on a 6th gen, but your basic direction is understood by those who are familiar , if not its going to be very confusing to the OP

i posted pix of a 3rd gen.. who cares?? its the same process.. if the pix confuse anyone.. they dont belong working on a bike..let alone riding one. :goofy:

What is shown in post #2 is exactly the correct solution for the problems on your 3rd gen. bike. This is an excellent job of correcting and explaining 3rd gen. electrical issues. I am not trying to diminish what you have done, it looks very well done. I suspect you do not realize how confusing this is trying to apply this in this situation. Just because someone does not have the electrical knowledge to rewire a bike does not mean "they dont belong working on a bike..let alone riding one." The OP is posting to learn, we should help not confuse.

It is very likely there is not a grounding problem. This melting fuse connector is a component problem rather than a grounding problem. It needs to be replaced with something better. A bad battery could contribute to this problem. This needs to be fixed first and may solve all the idling problem. If the idle problem persists after this repair than there may be another problem. It could be a grounding problem or any number of other unrelated problems.

If there is a grounding problem you need a solution designed for the 6th gen. bike describing which green wire to beef up. I would suggest looking at the VFRness at Wiremybike.com rather than trying to decipher a solution that addresses RR problems that do not apply and trying to sorting out a layout that is too different.

[gll429]

BIG cup of coffee!!

this was for the R/R.. however.. it does relate to your problem.. bad gounding!!

you need to cut away the melted block and see what wires fused together.. and repair them or if the SHOULD be together.. soldier them!

looking at the pic you have.. it looks like just 2 wires. one very thick goping to the fuse and one thing one. getting to much juice and frying! if this is the case.. replace the thin wire with a thick one.. or double it up as below..

do all you guys keep skipping this part or what???

[Guest]

BIG cup of coffee!!

this was for the R/R.. however.. it does relate to your problem.. bad gounding!!

you need to cut away the melted block and see what wires fused together.. and repair them or if the SHOULD be together.. soldier them!

looking at the pic you have.. it looks like just 2 wires. one very thick goping to the fuse and one thing one. getting to much juice and frying! if this is the case.. replace the thin wire with a thick one.. or double it up as below..

I was actually considering putting a fan on the r/r a couple of weeks ago because I noticed how hot it was getting around that area while commuting to work, it cant be good for the r/r especially since it sits above the radiator on my 6th gen. I wonder if there are many people with a 6th gen bike that do actually try and fit a fan on the r/r to keep it cool while commuting ?

In terms of beefing up the wires, I was actually thinking getting a VFRness as I was under the impression that this is one of things it was designed for ?

i'm thinking there is a typo on your open-circuit output voltage on the stator, should be 66 volts AC, not 166.?

The open-circuit DC output voltage of the RR doesn't really mean anything because it needs to be loaded for a good measurement. i.e. needs to be hooked up in the circuit with normal electrical loads, but i think yours is probably okay.

To me the battery voltage of 12.7 VDC unloaded indicates a weak battery, but there again it needs to be loaded for a good measurement, e.g. put the voltmeter on the battery terminals and watch the voltage when you engage the starter button with the key on. The starter puts the greatest load on a battery, and if the battery is weak then the voltage will be pulled way down during this test.

I think the thin wire is the likely culprit combined with a weak battery--the RR is sending charging current to try to keep the battery up to normal (~13.6-14.4 volts DC) and the female spade lug terminal inside the plastic connector is not making a good contact and generating lots of heat from the high resistance at the terminal and the high charging current. The heating power is proportional to the current squared times the resistance value (P=I^2 * R), so an increase in either of these makes it hot.

Inspect the spade lugs at the fuse if possible to see if there is any looseness or dirt/corrosion that is making a poor electrical connection (i.e high resistance), repair or replace. Also check loaded battery voltage and replace if weak.

Actually the stator output voltage is in fact 166volts AC when the engine was at 11,000+ rpm, so it started at 21 volts idle and gradually increased through the rev ranges, I thought the high values were normal based on what I read on Tightwad's thread on understanding the r/r with the high values he was getting through the rev ranges even though his were actually higher at 10,000 rpm compared to the max I can get of 166 ?

As for the battery, I think you are right that it is weak, it was having troubles kicking the bike over in the morning. Should have replaced it sooner rather than later.

Kennybobby is right on here. (Ignore post #2 it applies to a different problem on a different bike) For voltage tests downstream of the RR everything needs to be connected.

The 30 amp fuse that melted connects the RR (power source) to the battery. Connectors heat up because they are undersized, loose, corroded, or dirty (too much resistance) or there is too much current (the battery is getting weaker, drawing more current to recharge)

For the 6 gen VFR this 30 amp fuse connector is undersized so when the load or resistance increases it heats up. Even the upgraded OEM harness is insufficient. I replaced mine with an automotive type heavy duty 30 amp fuse holder, heavier gage wire about 2" on each end. One end soldered to the adjacent white connector. The other end solder spliced into the red wire.

I got something like this at the local auto parts store, link: http://tinyurl.com/2cu5qvb

I have not had any problems since replacing mine after it got too hot, 30k miles ago.

Have your battery charged and then have it load tested. Replace if fails test. You can not diagnose with a bad battery.

Check installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, should be 13.7-15 v

If you continue to have idle speed issues you may have something else wrong, maybe a grounding issue. Let us know what happens.

Question, if the problem occurred because the battery is getting weaking and drawing more current to recharge, how come the fuse didn't blow before melting things ?

As for checking the installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, were you talking about doing this with the r/r connected or disconnected. I ask because in its current state, if I were to run the bike with the r/r connected the fuse and its wiring will start burning again.

What is shown in post #2 is exactly the correct solution for the problems on your 3rd gen. bike. This is an excellent job of correcting and explaining 3rd gen. electrical issues. I am not trying to diminish what you have done, it looks very well done. I suspect you do not realize how confusing this is trying to apply this in this situation. Just because someone does not have the electrical knowledge to rewire a bike does not mean "they dont belong working on a bike..let alone riding one." The OP is posting to learn, we should help not confuse.

It is very likely there is not a grounding problem. This melting fuse connector is a component problem rather than a grounding problem. It needs to be replaced with something better. A bad battery could contribute to this problem. This needs to be fixed first and may solve all the idling problem. If the idle problem persists after this repair than there may be another problem. It could be a grounding problem or any number of other unrelated problems.

If there is a grounding problem you need a solution designed for the 6th gen. bike describing which green wire to beef up. I would suggest looking at the VFRness at Wiremybike.com rather than trying to decipher a solution that addresses RR problems that do not apply and trying to sorting out a layout that is too different.

It is interesting that you say the melting fuse is a component problem, perhaps Honda designed it that way so that if something is going to melt, its something in an easy to access and easy to replace spot vs some other place where it could make life more difficult and make it more costly, am I delusional in thinking that when the mechanic checks out my bike that he wont find any other melted wires in my electrical system ?

I was actually looking at the VFRness before the problem occurred, so once I get the damage fixed and replace the battery I will have to get a VFRness installed. Good thing is it will allow me to run some accessories off it.

Unfortunately I don't really have the time to look at this issue any further due to work commitments (another words my job is sucking the life out of me), so it will be going the bike shop this morning for the professionals to look at, I really hope they know what they are doing as it wont be cheap. If I had the time I would happily deal with this issue myself and fix what ever needs fixing. However since I need my bike operational before the 22nd of November for my 3 week camping trip I was planning on doing, I will have to get the mechanic to sort it out for me. First thing that will happen is they said they will diagnose it for me today and I will go from there, but based on all the information I have read on the issue, hopefully it will coincide with what the mechanic tells me.

Its a bummer that I don't have time to fix this problem myself, its actually quite interesting, and it would save me a ton of money :(

Thanks for the help/input everyone :)

I will update this thread when I get some sort of diagnosis and solution sorted out.

Cheers,

Craig

[Guest]

Question, if the problem occurred because the battery is getting weaking and drawing more current to recharge, how come the fuse didn't blow before melting things ?

As for checking the installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, were you talking about doing this with the r/r connected or disconnected. I ask because in its current state, if I were to run the bike with the r/r connected the fuse and its wiring will start burning again.

The fuse is downstream of the problem and never saw over 30 amps is why it didn't blow--most of the current was dissipated into heating the high resistance of the poor connection, and the voltage would also drop across that connection (V=I*R) such that you didn't have any voltage left to charge up the battery. The RR also has a maximum current capacity of about 25 amps, which is why they used a 30 amp fuse--it shouldn't blow unless there is a short circuit.

i predict that you have no other burnt wires and that your battery may actually be salvageable. The loose connection in the fuse connection may have prevented the battery from being recharged in addition to causing the high temperature joint and subsequent melting... Now whatever your mechanic tells you may be another $tory...

[spud786]

I was actually considering putting a fan on the r/r a couple of weeks ago because I noticed how hot it was getting around that area while commuting to work, it cant be good for the r/r especially since it sits above the radiator on my 6th gen. I wonder if there are many people with a 6th gen bike that do actually try and fit a fan on the r/r to keep it cool while commuting ?

In terms of beefing up the wires, I was actually thinking getting a VFRness as I was under the impression that this is one of things it was designed for ?))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

IMO Its not needed on 6th gen , especially o6 models with all the goodies , the harness you have is very good, just make sure you prep all the connections and ensure good mechanical contact, and prep all your connections, i personally use wd40 its not a barrier to condutivity , my wiring is mint and im over 81,000 mile .

I did have a stator go out at 56,000 mile, but thats better than average on many motorcycles.

[Guest]

Question, if the problem occurred because the battery is getting weaking and drawing more current to recharge, how come the fuse didn't blow before melting things ?

As for checking the installed battery voltage at 5000 rpm, were you talking about doing this with the r/r connected or disconnected. I ask because in its current state, if I were to run the bike with the r/r connected the fuse and its wiring will start burning again.

The fuse is downstream of the problem and never saw over 30 amps is why it didn't blow--most of the current was dissipated into heating the high resistance of the poor connection, and the voltage would also drop across that connection (V=I*R) such that you didn't have any voltage left to charge up the battery. The RR also has a maximum current capacity of about 25 amps, which is why they used a 30 amp fuse--it shouldn't blow unless there is a short circuit.

i predict that you have no other burnt wires and that your battery may actually be salvageable. The loose connection in the fuse connection may have prevented the battery from being recharged in addition to causing the high temperature joint and subsequent melting... Now whatever your mechanic tells you may be another $tory...

Thanks for clarifying that for me, makes total sense in what you described about the wires heating up. Whats interesting is when I first had these problems the first thing I did check was the battery voltage which was 12.7 volts, thinking it was in need of a charge, I did place it on my battery charger. However the battery charger indicated that the battery was fully charged. At fully charged it does seem to struggle a bit to tick over the bike when starting it. Thats why I was thinking that the battery may be on the way out or already is. Is the battery salvageable based on what I describe here ?

I was actually considering putting a fan on the r/r a couple of weeks ago because I noticed how hot it was getting around that area while commuting to work, it cant be good for the r/r especially since it sits above the radiator on my 6th gen. I wonder if there are many people with a 6th gen bike that do actually try and fit a fan on the r/r to keep it cool while commuting ?

In terms of beefing up the wires, I was actually thinking getting a VFRness as I was under the impression that this is one of things it was designed for ?))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

IMO Its not needed on 6th gen , especially o6 models with all the goodies , the harness you have is very good, just make sure you prep all the connections and ensure good mechanical contact, and prep all your connections, i personally use wd40 its not a barrier to condutivity , my wiring is mint and im over 81,000 mile .

I did have a stator go out at 56,000 mile, but thats better than average on many motorcycles.

The harness you are refering to being very good, are you talking about the OEM harness thats in the 2006 VFR or the VFRness I was thinking about getting ?

In terms of your stator, I have a friend who got about 30,000 km from his 2007 blade, he then replaced the stator and r/r and only managed to get 3,000 km out of it. I wonder what other manufactures of motorcycles are getting in terms of range with their stators and r/r

[spud786]

The harness you are refering to being very good, are you talking about the OEM harness thats in the 2006 VFR or the VFRness I was thinking about getting ?

In terms of your stator, I have a friend who got about 30,000 km from his 2007 blade, he then replaced the stator and r/r and only managed to get 3,000 km out of it. I wonder what other manufactures of motorcycles are getting in terms of range with their stators and r/r

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

THe OEM 06 harness, all 6th gens where recalled to bring to 06 level spec , If all your componentry is good the design works fine and is very reliable. Average stator life is less than 50,000 mile on a motorcycle (more than 50,000 is considered above average), I've seen them fail on other bikes at 20,000 mile. Friend of mines road glide failed at 56 k too

on the blade , were both of those oem stators, or the second an aftermarket? the vfr easliy makes it past that range

How well of condition a stator leaves the factory, Heat and vibration, all play a role, I wish I had an easy answer for stator issues to make them a life time item ,

The easist thing to start with is prepp all your connections and ensure good continuity, my favorite is wd40 everything in the charging system and big blue connectors ect. cause if you get heat build up in the wiring, it snow balls on top of itself.

also those agm batteries can show 12.8 volts an be near dead as a doornail

[Guest]

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At fully charged it does seem to struggle a bit to tick over the bike when starting it.

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Thats why I was thinking that the battery may be on the way out or already is. Is the battery salvageable based on what I describe here ?

Not likely salvageable if it was slow to turn over when "fully charged". Need to measure the voltage and watch how far it gets pulled down during cranking--if the voltage gets pulled low it is toast, has no guts left...