Pics Of Cooked Stator To R/r Connector "3p"

[Guest talus]

2002 VFR 800 w/ ABS

28,000 km

Red/White 30A main fuse wire redone.

Local Honda Dealer Parts estimates:

Stator - $389.41

Gasket - $12.30

Regulator / Rectifier - $179.26

No warranty or recall by Honda Canada - I checked with three dealers and Honda Canada direct.

The good part is that Honda USA already did the "How-To" with their recall - Thanks for posting guys!!

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31304

Read more on Sixth Gen Electrics here...

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...mp;#entry398023

I'm off to the garage to do the stator tests (I clipped the melted plug out and rewired but one stator wire still gets hot to the touch at the blade connector).

Pics as promised...

Right side - problem is the toasty lower connector.

Totally melted white connector block.

2002 VFR Stator and RR wiring diagram

[chris2992]

Don't have honda do the work for you if that is their price. I had my stator rewound by Ricks Motorsport Electric for $140 and it is warranted for 1 year. I would say after reading your other posts, that one of the legs of the stator went to ground and cooked the wiring and the RR. If you search "stator tests" or "R1 RR" you will see that I used a R1 RR instead of the Honda part, R1 RR's typically go on ebay for about $40, I got lucky and picked mine up for $20. $140+$40+$15=alot better than being gouged by the honda dealer.

P.S. You have an '02, has the stator recall been preformed?

[Guest]

Thanks Chris,

No recall in Canada for my VIN. The dealers (checked 3 different ones) didn't seem to know anything about a Canadian '02 recall like the USA one - I even quoted it to them.

After reading everyone's posts this sounds like a three-for-one deal. Replace the stator, replace the R/R and replace the batter due the the "cascade effect" of one item taking out the others.

I read your rewind post and I'm going to go with that option for sure. I also like the R1 R/R mod. No way am I letting the dealer at my bike - last time they had it they lost half the fairing bolts

What a pain - summer is just getting going.

Anyway, I'm off to buy a better multimeter and see what it tells me.

[jeremy556]

My plugs looked like that too. The root of all (or at least most) of my electrical problems was the R/R monitor wire was showing a low voltage which was causing the R/R to pump out as much as 16 volts.

Stick a multimeter on your bike and rev to 5500 with the brights on. If your voltage is above 15 volts check the monitor wire.

[Guest]

I went out and bought a good digital multimeter and here are the results. I'll start at the Battery and work my way along...

Battery readings:

No Load (just unplugged Battery Tender Jr) = 13.3 Vdc

Low Load (key on, FI primer sequence complete) = 12.0 - 12.3 Vdc

High Load (while cranking to start) = 8.7 to 11.9 Vdc - not a very accurate test since I can't crank it without starting it. I don't put much faith in this test - the number are a WAG at best.

Note: Battery is about 2 years old and sat unused for 1 year without a battery tender (that what the former owner tells me anyway).

This indicates to me that the battery is in acceptable condition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Battery and Regulator/Rectifier readings:

Note: It's an 8 wire R/R - 3 stator Yellows, 2 Green grounds, 2 Red/Whites, 1 Black/White (The Black/White stripe wire goes to the Engine Stop/Starter Switch as well as the headlight relay among others - why?).

Resistance between Red/White + Battery Positive = 0.2 Ohms

Resistance between Green + Neg or Frame = 0.1 - 0.2 Ohms

This indicates to me that the Grounds are good and the Red/Whites to the Battery are also good. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

At Idle - Engine warmed up (100C/212F), Radiator Fan ON

Battery: 12.85 Vdc

Battery Neg to Red/White Wires from R/R: 13.14 Vdc (both wires had the same reading)

Battery Neg to Black wire from R/R: 11.87 Vdc

At 5000 RPM - Engine warmed up (100C/212F), Radiator Fan ON

Battery: 14.04 Vdc

Battery Neg to Red/White Wires from R/R: 14.30 Vdc (again both wires had the same reading)

Battery Neg to Black wire from R/R: 12.65 Vdc

This indicates to me that there is sufficient charge going to the battery at low and high engine speeds. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Stator Readings:

Resistance measured between each of the yellow Stator wires in turn (i.e. wire 1 vs 2, 1 vs 3, then 2 vs 3): 0.3 - 0.4 Ohms

Resistance measured between each of the yellow Stator wires and ground: Infinity

Note: the above tests were done with bike OFF, R/R disconnected and yellow Stator wires disconnected from R/R (i.e. the 3P connector pulled apart - if I had one ).

This indicates to me that things are normal. I think.

AC Voltage measured between each of the yellow Stator wires in turn (as above 1 vs 2 etc): @ Idle engine cold = 21.8 VAC

AC Voltage measured between each of the yellow Stator wires in turn: @ Idle engine warm = 18.5 - 19.0 VAC

AC Voltage measured between each of the yellow Stator wires in turn: @ 5000 RPM engine warm = 67-68 VAC

Note: the above AC tests were done with R/R disconnected and yellow Stator wires disconnected from R/R.

I don't know what this means. Normal?

And you know what? - I never got the Stator VAC numbers with everything hooked up.

Sorry, I was removing the 14 gauge crimp-on butt connectors and soldering the 14 gauge wires. I kept the blade connectors from the three yellow Stator wires to the R/R harness.

I'll get those AC numbers tomorrow.

So my conclusion (at this point) is that everything is OK. Does anyone disagree? Am I missing something?

I don't know why the 3P connector fried - bad karma?

I ran the bike for a good long while - until the fan came on steady. The 16 gauge yellow Stator wires still feel like they are heating up. Changing fingers makes it fell less so - nice technical analysis hey? Should have bought the multimeter with the temperature probes!

But then again everything around that area is hot; the frame, the rad, the rad hose. The wires have to cross from the left side thru the engine V to the right side and it's hot in there also. And to top it off the damn Stator wires are 16 gage going into 14 gauge! Why does Honda do that?!?!

Anyway - weigh in with your thoughts please.

2002 VFR Stator and RR wiring diagram

[Guest]

My plugs looked like that too. The root of all (or at least most) of my electrical problems was the R/R monitor wire was showing a low voltage which was causing the R/R to pump out as much as 16 volts.

Stick a multimeter on your bike and rev to 5500 with the brights on. If your voltage is above 15 volts check the monitor wire.

Which wire is the monitor wire the Black/White stripe or the Red/White stripe (two of them).

[Guest]

Black/White is the monitor wire.

[jeremy556]

The black/white wire is the monitor wire. It sounds like you will probably end up with the monitor wire problem soon, since you are reading a much lower voltage on it than you are at the battery. The monitor wire is supposed to tell the R/R the battery voltage, and if the battery voltage is low, the R/R will pump out higher and higher voltages to try and charge the battery which ends up cooking it and everything else.

To fix, run a lead from the battery (or relay), cut the monitor wire between the harness and R/R, then splice your new lead to the R/R. If you leave the monitor wire connected to the harness you will backfeed the ignition and be unable to turn off the bike.

If you want to see some shameful electrical work, search for posts by Kanadian Ken. He has a spare 6th gen wire harness that he has pulled apart.

[KanadianKen]

If you want to see some shameful electrical work, search for posts by Kanadian Ken. He has a spare 6th gen wire harness that he has pulled apart.

JEremy - to clarify - I didn't do the shameful electrical work... HOnda did...... An asshat mechanic I might be, holder of a mean flashlight i am, but a bad electrical guy I'm not..... :thumbsup:

[Guest]

The black/white wire is the monitor wire. It sounds like you will probably end up with the monitor wire problem soon, since you are reading a much lower voltage on it than you are at the battery. The monitor wire is supposed to tell the R/R the battery voltage, and if the battery voltage is low, the R/R will pump out higher and higher voltages to try and charge the battery which ends up cooking it and everything else.

To fix, run a lead from the battery (or relay), cut the monitor wire between the harness and R/R, then splice your new lead to the R/R. If you leave the monitor wire connected to the harness you will backfeed the ignition and be unable to turn off the bike.

Sounds good. I'm going to pull the Black/white monitor wire from the block and hook up a temporary wire back to the battery positive post. I want to see if the stator wires still heat up.

There has to be a root cause of that monitor wire giving a low voltage reading?

[jeremy556]

Sounds good. I'm going to pull the Black/white monitor wire from the block and hook up a temporary wire back to the battery positive post. I want to see if the stator wires still heat up.

There has to be a root cause of that monitor wire giving a low voltage reading?

Poor connection in the wire harness it looks like from Ken's photos.

[Guest]

Wow - Great pics Ken! I was wondering why there were dual grounds and dual feeds at the RR block.

Here is a wire trace of the RR feedback wire. I'm not sure if you can view it full size and follow the highlighted trace (2000 px by 1000 px).

I'm still not sure where Honda made a connection for battery feedback.

EDIT: Here it is. Be sure to click on the "Click to view full image" at the top. Clicking on the image itself just takes you to www.imageshak

[Veefer800Canuck]

Wow - Great pics Ken! I was wondering why there were dual grounds and dual feeds at the RR block.

Here is a wire trace of the RR feedback wire. I'm not sure if you can view it full size and follow the highlighted trace (2000 px by 1000 px).

I'm still not sure where Honda made a connection for battery feedback.

Tracing the RR feedback wire.

The gallery automatically resizes the pics, so it's not really readable.

Upload the original from your PC to http://www.imageshack.us

You don't have to register and you can post BIG images.

[jeremy556]

They put that on so the R/R could pump out more voltage to charge a weak battery faster I would guess.

Also, that trace is wrong, if you look at the top post on the second page of Ken's Thread you will see that the monitor wire is just crimped to one of the Red/White wires coming from the R/R. How it gets a huge voltage drop in a few inches is beyond me.

ETA:

[Guest]

Great tip on the image posting Veefer!! Here it is. Be sure to click on the "Click to view full image" at the top. Clicking on the image itself just takes you to www.imageshak

Yes Jereme - I was looking at Ken's pictures and I can't figure that out either.

When I think about it - this means that the RR is measuring the current voltage just 10 inches away.

Does this analogy work?

The Battery is sink full of water,

The RR is a tap that can be turned on to fill the sink. The "flow" of the RR is variable more or less depending on what is in the sink.

The White/Black wire is STOCK configuration is measuring the just volume of water just after the tap (i.e. 10 inches away).

Unfortunately, there are other users of that water downstream from the tap and before the sink.

When the White/Black wire is hooked directly to the sink the RR can get a true reading.

BTW on my '02 ABS model the monitor wire is Black with a White strip. I don't know if Honda changed anything on the ABS models. I can't see there being major changes to the wiring and certainly not to the charging system.

[jeremy556]

I think the problem with the monitor wire must be that crimp connector becoming loose, corroding, or something. Before I fixed it, the voltage on any of the red/white leads would be 15-16.5 volts, and the monitor wire was 8-11 volts.

When there was not much load (brights off), the monitor wire would be around 11 volts and the R/R was pumping out a little over 15 volts. Whenever the brights were turned on, the monitor wire would drop to around 8-9 volts and the R/R would start pumping out 16+ volts.

Now that I have the monitor wire connected to my relay (which is connected to the battery) the system voltage stays at 14.3-14.5 volts regardless of RPMs or brights.

[Guest]

Ok new numbers:

STOCK setup - RR Black Monitor wire as from factory (fried 3P connector cut out):

Battery: 15.4 Vdc at Idle

RR Red/White wires: 15.4 Vdc

RR Black monitor wire: 14.2 Vdc

Stator wires: 12.4 - 12.7 Vac at Idle

Stator wires: 11.5 - 13.9 Vac at 5000 RPM

RR Monitor wire mod - directly to Battery Positive post:

Battery: 14.2 Vdc at idle

Battery: 14.3 Vdc at 5000 RPM

RR Red/White wires: 14.5 Vdc

RR Black monitor wire: 14.2 Vdc (of course since there is only a couple of feet of wire between it and the battery Positive post)

Stator wires: 11.8 - 12.2 Vac at Idle

Stator wires: 11.2 - 13.8 Vac at 5000 RPM

My conclusions:

1. Stator, RR, and Battery are working normally (see note below);

2. The monitor wire mod is the fix. This seems to make life easier on the Battery and RR. Not much effect on the Stator; and

3. The stator wires STILL get hot no matter which configuration I use....and I still don't know why. Best guess is undersized stator wires.

Note: According to the Electrosport troubleshooting flow chart (www.electrosport.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf) if the Battery voltage at 5000 RPM is higher than 14.8 Vdc then "RR at fault. Check the voltage on the BLACK (Honda) wires. If it is lower than battery voltage, you have a bad connection between battery and RR thought the ignition switch. Fix this bad connection, and/or replace the RR..."

I'm going to button it back up with the RR Black/White wire mod in place and drive it for a bit. Hopefully I won't go up in a ball of flames!

Comments?

[jeremy556]

I'm going to button it back up with the RR Black/White wire mod in place and drive it for a bit. Hopefully I won't go up in a ball of flames!

I would say less likely to go up in flames. I have 10-15k miles with the fixed monitor wire and haven't had my battery whistle (or burned out light bulbs or ABS lights) since the fix.

[Guest]

I think the problem with the monitor wire must be that crimp connector becoming loose, corroding, or something. Before I fixed it, the voltage on any of the red/white leads would be 15-16.5 volts, and the monitor wire was 8-11 volts.

Jeremy,

Our bikes aren't that old - I think there has to be something more to it than a bad crimp connection 10 inches away. Every other factory crimp connection I pulled apart was rock solid - except for the short red (burnt) 30 AMP fuse wire - BUT even the toasted connectors have solid crimps.

And what is up with the schematic not matching Ken's finding?

[Guest]

Over in the "Beef up the wires" pin Poncho had this to say...

Who am I to question Mother Honda but I am going too.

Trying to fix some electrical problems with my handy service manual for 2003 to 2004 vfr's.

I am looking at the wiring diagram from the 02 to 03 abs and taking voltage reading and things are not right. Here is the thing. the white/ black wire that comes from the R/R has a different voltage on it then the red/white wires even though the wiring diagram show the they are at the same point or potential as far as voltage goes. When the key is turned off there is no voltage on the white/black but there is still full voltage on the red/white. These 3 wires can not be tied together as show in the diagram.

After more readings I have come to the ideal that the wiring diagram IS wrong. :o When I look at the diagram for after 03 models it shows the white/ black wire from the R/R the right way.

Now if someone can prove me wrong on this I would be happy to listen. I am looking forward to my talk with Honda Canada.

I get the same results...so my harness can't be wired like Kens'.

[jeremy556]

Jeremy,

Our bikes aren't that old - I think there has to be something more to it than a bad crimp connection 10 inches away. Every other factory crimp connection I pulled apart was rock solid - except for the short red (burnt) 30 AMP fuse wire - BUT even the toasted connectors have solid crimps.

And what is up with the schematic not matching Ken's finding?

Mine is an 02 with 55k miles, but the monitor wire was a problem from 20k miles if not earlier just unnoticed. Most of the electrical connectors in my bike are corroded, burned, or melted to some extent and have been since I got the bike with 14k miles on it.

Plenty of bikes with far fewer miles than mine, and years newer than ours have the monitor wire problem.

As far as the schematic not matching the actual wiring, it is not that uncommon for them not to match in my experience; usually somewhere between design and production it gets changed and not updated.

[Guest]

Plenty of bikes with far fewer miles than mine, and years newer than ours have the monitor wire problem.

As far as the schematic not matching the actual wiring, it is not that uncommon for them not to match in my experience; usually somewhere between design and production it gets changed and not updated.

Check. That really is pretty sad for such new machines.

One more question for you... I'm going to need a fuse in this new monitor wire aren't I?

I'm threading it as I type this (almost).

[Bikes]

Plenty of bikes with far fewer miles than mine, and years newer than ours have the monitor wire problem.

As far as the schematic not matching the actual wiring, it is not that uncommon for them not to match in my experience; usually somewhere between design and production it gets changed and not updated.

Check. That really is pretty sad for such new machines.

One more question for you... I'm going to need a fuse in this new monitor wire aren't I?

I'm threading it as I type this (almost).

Hi Talus ... a thought, a battery will give different readings depending on how the voltage is measured. You have already determined that with your rather thorough analysis of the problem. Doesn't hurt that others also seem to have suffered this malady, however ... we VFR riders share and this helps everybody. I have an 03 ABS bike with low use and can't help but reacting to the potential for my bike to also experience this problem. But, should I be proactive, or cross the bridge when it arrives ?

Anyhow, the only way to tell what state a battery is in, especially a sealed AGM battery is to load test it. A flooded wet cell battery can be checked with a hygrometer and it will confirm what other tests suggest. A load test is done with a battery load tester, a simple resistance tester. If the battery is tested and the voltage drops beyond a certain level, then regardless of what the static voltage is, the battery is beyond it's service life. When a battery that is in such a state is used the bikes charging system will be constantly trying to recharge the battery, and it might even think that it has done so. The bike may start just fine, show 13.5 volts and in general, act quite normal. But the load test will tell.

I have a load tester and my 2 year old sealed AGM VFR battery is just marginal, in spite of my using a Smart Charger throughout it's life. In contrast, the flooded wet cell battery in my CBX is 6 years old and holds a load test voltage for 8 seconds before showing any signs of dropping. A check with the hygrometer also shows all 5 balls floating which confirms the load test, and it shows the same static voltage that my VFR battery shows. One battery is marginal and one battery is fine, both show the same static voltage. Supports the idea that measuring battery voltage is not really telling us very much.

If you don't have or do not wish to acquire a battery load tester, any good battery shop will likely assist you and test your battery for you. These things are not expensive, I got mine for $50 at a local automotive jobber shop. If you need some measurments to go by, I can test and let you know what I measure on my batteries.

hope this helps ... LarryW

[jeremy556]

One more question for you... I'm going to need a fuse in this new monitor wire aren't I?

That would be a very good idea, as that is how vehicles going up in flames generally happen is unfused circuits.

[Guest]

But, should I be proactive, or cross the bridge when it arrives ?

The bike may start just fine, show 13.5 volts and in general, act quite normal. But the load test will tell.

If you need some measurments to go by, I can test and let you know what I measure on my batteries.

hope this helps ... LarryW

Hi Larry,

I believe in the proactive approach. Of course then I usually break something in the process...HA!!

I'm am going down to the local battery shop tomorrow to get the battery load tested. But I would still appreciate some measurement from yours as an example. Any data would be helpful - I'm trying to figure out what "normal" is.

I just did a pile of testing on the harness side of things. It's posted on Tip's and Tricks