Kochan Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 Hi guys, I'm back with my dear VFR800. This time the bike does not want to start. I can see no spark whatsoever on any of the coils. Here is the situation: + The battery is fully charged + The bike is in neutral (neutral light on) + The side stand is up + The ignition ON + The engine stop switch ON + The fuel pump primes + No FI errors + The engine cranks + I can hear the fuel pump works = No start So the first I've checked was spark, and there is no spark on any of the coils. The next things I've checked: - ignition pulse generator (works on another bike) - cam pulse generator (works on another bike) - side stand sensor (works) - initial voltage on all coils present - every coil has solid ground on the green wire Any help with the diagnosis is much appreciated. I will get back to it on Monday after work... Best, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer airwalk Posted September 1, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 1, 2023 Bank angle(tip-over) sensor, if it has such a thing. Otherwise ecm not saying “fire now!” to coils, unlikely on a fairly new model tho. Lack of good elec. contact where ecm plugs into main harness (maybe) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 2, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 2, 2023 Hi Greg. You sure have covered a lot of bases..... - What led up to this situation? Bike recently serviced, modifications, new battery fitting, R/R being replaced, etc. or just happened for no obvious reason? - Does your bike have the Honda H.I.S.S. key security system? - Try holding the clutch lever in, sidestand UP while cranking, does this make any difference? - Assume battery terminals are clean and tight? - Did you check for any active Fi fault codes, Sidestand must be Down? - Assume your Fi light goes OFF normally after Fuel Prime has completed at Ignition Switch On? - Are you very sure you don't have a spark, not just a flooded start situation? Plugs not soaking wet with fuel when removed? Possible leaky injectors? Perhaps a bad batch of fuel? Fuel Tank water condensation? Don't have a rodents nest in the Airbox, any chewed wires? Just thinking outside the square a little! Check the Neutral and Sidestand switch saftey logic Grounds at the ECM, probe these with a meter making sure these Grounds come and go with the operation of both Sidestand and Neutral switch. Make sure these Grounds are good, not just to frame but back to the battery Negative Terminal. - Neutral Switch Ground should be at A7 (Black ECM connector) a Green/Red wire. - SideStand Switch Ground should be at A20 a Green/White wire. - Make sure the ECM GROUNDS at the ECM Gray Connector B1, B2 Green/Pink wires and B14 Green wire are good back to the battery Negative terminal. Remove both ECM plugs have a very close inspection of pins and sockets, check for any sign of corrosion/oxidization especially for the A7 and A20 pins/sockets. Give the connectors a spray of something like CRC 2-26 electrical contact spray. Note - Your ECM connections might vary depending on year/version However the ECM wire colour codes should be standard. For Info - Faulty BAS (Bank Angle Sensor) = No Fuel Prime and Fi Light permanently On. Also, you can be sure that if you had an issue with either Cam or Ignition Pulse Sensors or their wiring the ECM would certainly let you know with Code 18 or 19. Good Luck, keep us posted. Do widzenia. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 Thanks for all the replies. On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - What led up to this situation? Bike recently serviced, modifications, new battery fitting, R/R being replaced, etc. or just happened for no obvious reason? I should start from the beginning. In 2018 I serviced the bike at the Honda dealer in my hometown, Krakow, Poland. Long story short, they messed up my rear wheel hub and a few other things and, because I did not know any better mechanic shop, I said to myself that from now on I would service the bike myself. They told me that the cam chains need to be replaced soon. I don't want to go into if this was necessary or not but the cam got more and more noisy over time. In 2019 I decided to replace the tensioners, it didn't help so I replaced the cam chains with the dedicated DID chains. This was my first complicated bike job so I of course messed it up. I did not put my owner marks when disassembling and I put the bike together using the factory markings. I set the timing wrong a little so the bike was starting but it couldn't rev above around 4.5-5k. Thanks to the help of VFRdiscussion members I diagnosed a lot of components and came to the conclusion that there was something wrong with the cam chains (sic!). So I decided to go back to the old ones to test it. It didn't help but during the chains replacement, I figured out that I got the timing wrong and I set the timing correctly this time. The bike finally worked as expected but on the old chains so I was back to square 1. After all the trouble I went through, I didn't have enough time and energy to replace it with the new chains so I left it as it was and ignored the nose. I used the bike from time to time. Then the pandemic hit, we got locked down, etc. After that my father passed away and I was devastated for a long time. I didn't use the bike at all. I started riding again last year. I noticed that the noise gets louder and more annoying. Finally few weeks ago I decided to replace the chains with the DID chains I got. This time I did my own markings, photo-documented the state of the things before, and checked the timing of both front and rear cam shafts a few times after the replacement. It looked exactly as before. I put the bike together and to my surprise, it did not start. The rest you already know. What was removed from the bike during the job: - tank - airbox - coolers - clutch cover and everything under - valve covers - ignition coils On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Does your bike have the Honda H.I.S.S. key security system? Yes On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Try holding the clutch lever in, sidestand UP while cranking, does this make any difference? Tried that, did not help On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Assume battery terminals are clean and tight? Yes On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Did you check for any active Fi fault codes, Sidestand must be Down? Yes, no fault codes. I even disconnected the plug wonder the airbox to check if this would end up with an FI error and it did. On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Assume your Fi light goes OFF normally after Fuel Prime has completed at Ignition Switch On? Yes On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: - Are you very sure you don't have a spark, not just a flooded start situation? Plugs not soaking wet with fuel when removed? Possible leaky injectors? Perhaps a bad batch of fuel? Fuel Tank water condensation? Don't have a rodents nest in the Airbox, any chewed wires? Just thinking outside the square a little! Yes, I've checked it a few times. No spark. On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: Check the Neutral and Sidestand switch saftey logic Grounds at the ECM, probe these with a meter making sure these Grounds come and go with the operation of both Sidestand and Neutral switch. Make sure these Grounds are good, not just to frame but back to the battery Negative Terminal. - Neutral Switch Ground should be at A7 (Black ECM connector) a Green/Red wire. - SideStand Switch Ground should be at A20 a Green/White wire. - Make sure the ECM GROUNDS at the ECM Gray Connector B1, B2 Green/Pink wires and B14 Green wire are good back to the battery Negative terminal. Remove both ECM plugs have a very close inspection of pins and sockets, check for any sign of corrosion/oxidization especially for the A7 and A20 pins/sockets. Give the connectors a spray of something like CRC 2-26 electrical contact spray. Note - Your ECM connections might vary depending on year/version However the ECM wire colour codes should be standard. Thanks for the suggestion. I will test it today after work. I'll get back to you with the results. On 9/2/2023 at 2:19 AM, Grum said: For Info - Faulty BAS (Bank Angle Sensor) = No Fuel Prime and Fi Light permanently On. Also, you can be sure that if you had an issue with either Cam or Ignition Pulse Sensors or their wiring the ECM would certainly let you know with Code 18 or 19. Good to know. In general, like @airwalk said, it looks like the computer does not tell the coils to spark for some reason.. Thanks a lot for your help @Grum @airwalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeEffArah Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Sounds to me like symptons of my friends 2005. Ended up being the dreaded green wire / blue connector problem. We jumped the green wire arounf the blue connector as first task and it started and ran as before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 The connection on this green wire looks solid at first glance… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeEffArah Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Does the HISS light come on then go off ? Maybe try the spare key? Does your bike have a Power Commander by chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, VeeEffArah said: Does the HISS light come on then go off ? Maybe try the spare key? Does your bike have a Power Commander by chance? Good point but any problem with the HISS would mean HISS, and Fi light ON and No Fuel Pump prime, Kochan doesn't appear to have any of these symptoms. Might be worth trying his spare key if he has one, just to be sure I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 5, 2023 6 hours ago, Kochan said: The connection on this green wire looks solid at first glance… Sorry Greg but this is not good electrical language, it means nothing! "green wire looks solid at first glance". Always best to measure continuity of a Ground back to the battery Negative probing both sides of that Green wire at the Blue Connector, you should read zero ohms OR with Ignition to On there should be no voltage on a Ground wire with respect to the Negative battery terminal, any voltage on a ground means it's Not properly Grounded. Statements like "fuse, wiring or grounds look good" has caught out many people by not measuring, and makes the whole processs of trying to fault find so much more difficult. Good Luck - Be interested to hear how the ECM checks mentioned turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 Good point@Grum . I’m sorry, working with electricity is not my strong side. I’ll be more precise from now on. By “it looks good” I meant I measured the continuity. I will double check it today and measure the resistance and voltage. BTW do you Goya know how to remove the protective chassis from the ECM to access the black connector? This is how it looks like for mehttps://www.icloud.com/photos/#0adW_L7s9gDe5d-PGlz4gcKDQ@Grum you mentioned PIN numbers, is there a layout of the pins somewhere to download? Thank you for your help! Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Kochan said: Good point@Grum . I’m sorry, working with electricity is not my strong side. I’ll be more precise from now on. By “it looks good” I meant I measured the continuity. I will double check it today and measure the resistance and voltage. BTW do you Goya know how to remove the protective chassis from the ECM to access the black connector? This is how it looks like for me https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0adW_L7s9gDe5d-PGlz4gcKDQ @Grum you mentioned PIN numbers, is there a layout of the pins somewhere to download? Thank you for your help! Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk Do you have the Service Manual and a wiring diagram? See attached for ECM removal, section 5 of service manual will show ECM pin numbering. As mentioned wire colour codes are standard so as long as you identify the wire colours at the ECM on the plug suggested you should be fine. See if they match up with your drawing if you have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 Thanks for the photo @Grum I have the Service Manual. I thought that maybe there was some other pin diagram available. Regarding the ECM removal, there is nothing about removing the metal plate, that locks the ECM in place, in the manual. I can see no screws so I'm wondering how do I remove that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 5, 2023 Haven't seen that arrangement before, wonder if it's for the ABS A-9 versions. Is that plate a type of clip holder, does the forward smaller section simply unclip from the top of the ECM allowing you to withdrawal the ECM towards the front of the bike? Or once uncliped the whole bracket might slide off out of the way of the ECM? Perhaps you need to undo bolt number 23 see attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 The thing is that it does not look like it... This metal "chasis" is made of 2 elements that seem to be permamently fixed together. There are no bolts and It looks like it's fixed or there were bolts and they're broken. Very strange. I'll try to figure this out... In the meantime I've measured the light-grey ECM connector against the battery positive and negative terminals. Here are the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 Regarding the green wire in the blue connector mentioned before - resistance to the negative battery terminal: 0.4 - 0.5 Ω from both sides of the connection - voltage measured to the positive battery terminal shows battery voltage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 5, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 5, 2023 15 hours ago, Kochan said: The thing is that it does not look like it... This metal "chasis" is made of 2 elements that seem to be permamently fixed together. There are no bolts and It looks like it's fixed or there were bolts and they're broken. Very strange. I'll try to figure this out... In the meantime I've measured the light-grey ECM connector against the battery positive and negative terminals. Here are the results. There was no need to go to all that trouble. Why measure every wire? Sure hope you did the ohm checks with Ignition to Off? On the B Gray connector you only needed to test the three Ground wires they are the two Green/Pink wires and the one Green wire. Make sure they have continuity back to the battery negative. On the A Black connector just check the Sidestand Ground input on the Green/White wire. Make sure this Ground is there with the Sidestand up. To add to more confusion - I found another drawing that has the Green/White Sidestand wire going to B15 on the B connector, and the Neutral switch Green/Red wire going to B27, and the three ECM Grounds are spread between both A and B connectors! See attached. So check the wire colour codes, as mentioned they seem to be standard. Need to have a drawing that exactly matches your bike! It would be So Much easier if your bike was in front of me! Too many ECM variations just for a 6gen based on country, model variation, year, 2x33 pin plugs and 2x26 pin plugs versions etc. and the Service Manual doesn't cover them all - Drives me nuts! For Info - The reason for checking the Sidestand and Neutral switch GROUND at the ECM is - If the ECM does NOT see a Ground from either the Sidestand switch Up position OR the Neutral switch Neutral position = Ignition NOT Enabled, No Spark. Fuel Prime will be normal and no Fi fault codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 6, 2023 Author Share Posted September 6, 2023 Thanks @Grum I will definitely check those connections as soon as I figure out a way to get to the black ECM connector. As I mentioned, the ECM is fixed in a metal chassis that prevents the black connector from being unplugged and the bolts connecting the front ant back part of the chassis are broken. I don’t see other way to access the ECM than to unscrew the broken bolts and separate the chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted September 7, 2023 Member Contributer Share Posted September 7, 2023 13 hours ago, Kochan said: Thanks @Grum I will definitely check those connections as soon as I figure out a way to get to the black ECM connector. As I mentioned, the ECM is fixed in a metal chassis that prevents the black connector from being unplugged and the bolts connecting the front ant back part of the chassis are broken. I don’t see other way to access the ECM than to unscrew the broken bolts and separate the chassis. Wow that seems crazy! Why would Honda do such a thing, no need for such over the top security? If the bolt heads are welded to the large washers then maybe you could grip the washer with a pair of multi grips to undo. Or possibly cut a screwdriver slot in the bolt heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kochan Posted September 7, 2023 Author Share Posted September 7, 2023 Right? I found a diagram for my model. There should be bolts holding the chassis together. I have to manage this first, to get full access to the ECM. I will measure the suggested wirings, and get back to you with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.