Swiffers new front end

[Guest Swiffer]

Hi folks!

This is a "questions" thread hoping to convert itself to "check this out", let's see if that will happen.

I'm swaping to a USD fork and since I may not go the RC51 route (that is scouted by Safe-T and others), I want to run some things buy you guys.

Let's say I use a GSX1000 fork - what are the things to consider?

1) need triple clamps and steering stem that fits - no problem, RC51/929/954 works

2) Front wheel,

2a) one that looks something like my Marchesini 5 spoke Duc rear

2b) One that fits the GSX fork in Honda triples (rotor size, wheel axle diameter, distance between forks at wheel axle)

I was in a domestic war zone last night(3 kids with colds) and couldn't look up rotor diameters for GSX1000 (320mm I think) and rotor diameters for possible swap options.

3) Calipers - GSX original

4) Break master - f4/f4i/RC50 etc depending on the style I choose at the bars

What more info do I need to be able to choose a wheel/fork combo?

Here is a table of interesting numbers: (not just to copy/paste a spread sheet, believe me)

Model??.?FL (mm)??..RD(mm)??..WAD(mm)??..Comp.???..?DBF c-c (mm)

VFR????.?. 774????..?-?????.??.?????...?.?No????.??.....?

RC51

00-01?????742????.320????....22????.per definition??????214

02-04????.???????.???????.???????????..No???..???.?

CBR

929 00-01???724????..???????..25???...per definition??????.214

954 02-05???724????..???????..25????.per definition??????.214

GSXR 750

88-95??????730????310?????...20??????????.????..??..214

96-99????..?.730????320??????25?????????.Yes??..???214

GSXR 1000

01-02????.?725????.320??????25(?)????????Yes?????...214

03-04 ?????.????..?.300??????..????????.??..Yes???.??.214

GSXR 1100

90-94???..750-770????????..????..?????????????? ???..214

95-98..???750-770????????..????..?????????????? ???..214

TLR 1000????.??????.?.??????.?25????????..No??? ?..??.214

Ducati .

748/916-998??.??????..320??? ??..25???????..No????? ???

FL = Fork length fully extended

RD = Rotor Diameter

WAD = Wheel Axle Diameter

Comp? = compatible with RC51/929/954 steering heads

DBF c-c = Distance Between Forks center to center

OK, finally some progress.

These are the forks that is going on the bike: GSXR1000 -01?s

They will be mounted too low for above the top triple mount of the bars so I?m looking in to Cycle Cat 929/Duc risers (thanks for the tip Busy!). The 6 pot calipers looks promising (although not radials...)

As I mentioned before, it seems that when I compare 5:th gen owners comments to my own experience there are some differences.

It seems even more cramped! To fit a USD fork in 929 triples takes all the room that is there ? and then some, I will have to cut some fairing edges off.

The rubbing of oil cooler hoses against the lower triple, that all USD modders talk about, is there of course.

I have a 929 lower triple but since I have had a RC51 lower in my hand and know what they are like, I can tell that an RC51 lower wouldn?t help. It doesn?t lower the grip on the forks enough for the hoses to go free. I needed another approach.

I noted that, if the hoses from the oil cooler had been pointed more outward, or the cooler had been mounted slightly more forward it would not rub.

So I combined those two:

The wood is a hardwood, otherwise the edges of the cooler would cut into the wood and the wood would destroy the wafer metal that is between the oil passages in the cooler.

This is how much i bent it

And this is the result.

In place:

Since Blue Viffer is so impatient I add this info - originally intended for the next chapter.

I have a Marchesini 5-spoke Duc front wheel on its way. The theory is that since they use the same axle diameter as the GSXR wheel it will fit with only new spacers made. Let's see if that holds true also in practice. It will also match the 5-spoke Marchesini rear I have (nearly) fitted (go to the "Rearly Central" topic in the mods dept, if you're interested. More info there soon. ((btw why is this thread in "maintenance" now? It's pretty XXXX far from maintenance...))

I have a cracked GSX front fender laying around and I'm thinking of making a glass fiber or carbon copy of it. However if spring comes too soon for yet another project (is that possible?) I have a friend that wants to sell me an un-cracked one, but I need to save as much money as possible for the Cycle Cat risers.

Stay tuned!

In the next chapter a Marchesini front will be fitted and rotor options discussed.

The color of those GSX calipers were rather terrible imo.

I felt I had to do something about it (and the front wheel or risers aren't here yet) so this is what I did. I went for gold(ish) as the GSX fork is gold/yellow. The original yellow GSX and the old VFR is there as reference.

What do you think?

GSXR1000 caliper repaint

A burst of activity when some packages arrived resulted in this:

The front wheel is in place and I can measure how much offset I need on the rotors. I need 10.5 mm and that means Duc R-rotors. Safe-T has said so all along, but I wanted to make sure. They are ordered and on their way.

What I may ad that hasn't already been clear is that VFR rotors won't fit since the inner diameter is to small for the Duc wheel.

The front ride height as it stands now (no sag measured) is EXACTLY what Stockie has!

PICT1289b.jpg

The GSX-R fender is up for a paint job. It was dead black when I got it and is now in the process of turning red with a black center stripe. The original black was too boring and I happened to have some BMW "black saphire" paint sitting around. In the pic you can see the BMW black in the middle and just primer on the sides. It is not as sparkling as it looks in the pic, it just has some depth. The black stripe will be approx 2" wide - I think. Let's see how it turns out.

PICT1293a.jpg

CycleCat risers for a 954. I decided on these since they will mount under the top triple and still give me the bar height (relative to the top triple) that I had when I used VTR bars on the original forks.

The height is good, but the risers hit the instruments if I turn to the stop.

I turned some mounting rubber thingies around to move the instruments a bit more forward but it wasn't quite enough. I don't need much more space, but some. I'll figure something out.

Cycle Cat risers

Sorry for making you turn your heads, but I don't have time to fix that now

Edit: HS made me fix it (I think...)

As you all know by now, you need the front fender of the fork donor bike (or compatible). As I mentioned before the black GSXR fender is going thru changes and I wanted to share them with you.

First the primer covered sides

GSXR fender in its prime?

Here it is painted red (that should be pretty obvious...) but the white stripes are not there yet. They are to be where the thin white stripes are, but approx 7mm wide. When the clearcoat is applied the black stripe will be glossy too.

GSXR fender getting there

It seems like the pointers I got from a pro painter has payed off. Let's hope the rest of the bike will be able to shine as much.

If you're this slow, you get to post a lot!

The finished fender:

finished

I first did it with white lines half the width of these, but those lines looked "scared" almost like they were trying to hide. This is better I think.

Clearcoating was a bitch...

Edited June 2, 2009 by HispanicSlammer

[Guest Swiffer]

GSXR : 214mm between fork center

RC51/929/954: 214 mm between fork center

GSXR 1000 01-02: 320mm brake disc (rotor in your language?)

GSXR 750, 96-04: 320mm rotor

Marchesini Duc rotor: 320mm

GSXR axle: 25mm

Duc:25mm

GSX 1000 01-02 length: 725mm hm...

GSXR 750, 96 -> 730mm

Why should I not be able to put a Duc wheel in a GSX fork (of the right year) on the VFR?

What are the hidden problems?

[SAFE-T]

Why should I not be able to put a Duc wheel in a GSX fork (of the right year) on the VFR?

What are the hidden problems?

The Ducati 5-spoke Marchesini should be a great choice. Keep in mind the Ducati forks are closer together than Japanese forks - get a pair of Ducati rotors from an 'R' model, which have a 10 mm offset - you may still have to shim the rotors outboard, or move the calipers inboard to get them to match up, but it's very doable. I had to move my 998R rotors out about 3mm on each side.

The thing that works so well about the RC51 fork is it's length - 32 mm shorter than the stock VFR fork. Combined with the CBR929/954 'gullwing' upper triple that dips down approx. 30mm, you get an inverted fork that you can still mount clipons above the triple clamp. In comparison, the 01-02 GSXR1000 fork is 50mm shorter, while the 96+ GSXR750 fork is 45mm shorter. This would only leave 10mm and 15mm respectively above the top triple - not enough to attach clipons which are generally 30mm at the clamp. If you want to use the GSXR forks, you would have to raise the forks in the triples 20mm for the 1000 forks and 15mm for the 750 forks. It's been proven acceptable to lower the front end height of the VFR 5mm, but you would still need a way to drop the rear end to compensate, taking into account the fork axle offset of the donor GSXR and it's effect on rake and trail.

Depending on what kind of rear shock you have on your VFR, you may be able to reduce ride height at the rear. Alternately, you might try a longer shock linkage or even a shorter shock which you could shim to the correct ride height. I'm not as familiar with the shock mounting on the fourth generation VFR750 but I do know there are several Honda rear shocks that will fit on VFR800's, as covered here.

If you are going to get GSXR forks, get the later model 1000 forks with the radial calipers B) This gives you the choice of using either GSXR radial calipers or Kawasaki ZX636R calipers, which are the same Nissin units. GSXR750 forks are considerably cheaper, but the lure of radial calipers on the 1000 forks would be too much for me to resist.

Frankenviffers...start your engines :huh:

[BusyLittleShop]

Combined with the CBR929/954 'gullwing' upper triple that dips down approx. 30mm, you get an inverted fork that you can still mount clipons above the triple clamp.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mounting the clip ons below the triple clamps is not desireable???

border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[SAFE-T]

It's fine on a race replica like your RC45, but there is not as much clearance between the bars and fairing on the VFR. Besides, most VFR owners prefer a less racy reach to the bars to begin with.

[BusyLittleShop]

It's fine on a race replica like your RC45, but there is not as much clearance between the bars and fairing on the VFR. Besides, most VFR owners prefer a less racy reach to the bars to begin with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not clear how mounting the bars below the triple clamps interferes with the fairing???

I also prefer a less racy reach to the bars... after all a big part of my riding plans are long distance tours...

[SAFE-T]

If you put the clipons underneath the triple clamp on a VFR750/800, the control cables and levers would contact the innner fairing shroud and gauges

Not enough room

[BusyLittleShop]

If you put the clipons underneath the triple clamp on a VFR750/800, the control cables and levers would contact the innner fairing shroud and gauges 

Not enough room

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about aftermarket bar risers that mount under the triple clamps but afford control cable and gauge clearance???

929UnderTripleClampBarRisers

Edited February 11, 2005 by BusyLittleShop

[Guest Swiffer]

The GSXR 1000 fork with radial brakes have 300mm rotors as I understand it. That would make it harder to find a matching front wheel. They are also not as available as the 01-02 ones.

I have a Wilbers rear shock with ride height adjuster so lowering the rear 15-20mm will not be a problem technically for me. I have allready dropped my front 10mm and find that a good compromise between "turnability" and straight line acceleration stability. I have VTR bars on my bike now for a more leaned forward riding position and, if anything, I'd like to lean even more. However, when I mounted my VTR bars I saw that the space for bar position is limited when you go below the length wise "cut out" that is below the mirror, under the screen.

Still does not seem undoable though.

I also post a "spreadsheet" above in the first post with meassurements that can be of interest to others. As you guys add info I will update it.

[SAFE-T]

The GSXR 1000 fork with radial brakes have 300mm rotors as I understand it. That would make it harder to find a matching front wheel. They are also not as available as the 01-02 ones.

What matters more is whether the bolt pattern on the 03-04 GSXR1000 rotors is compatible with the Marchesini wheel. Although you can't use 03-04 GSXR rotors on the 01-02 forks, it may be due to a different carrier offset. The six bolt carrier pattern is remarkably consistent across several wheels, and you can actually put VFR, VTR and CBR rotors on an OEM Ducati Marchesini front wheel.

CBR1100XX rotors are 300mm, and I did test fit a set on my 5-spoke Marchesini wheel so I know they will fit. You will still probably have to shim the rotors out to meet the calipers, but this is a relatively simple issue. They will also fit a VFR wheel. A used set should not be more than $150 US.

If I was looking for a set of 03-04 GSXR1000 forks, I would look for a single right side or single left side fork seperately since most people need to replace both forks at once. I have seen 03-04 GSXR radial fork sets sell for under $200, although $350 is more usual. The 04 GSXR600 and 750 also have radial calipers, along with the Kawasaki 03-05 ZX636R - you might want to add them to your spreadsheet. Honda's '05 CBR600RR, '04-'05 CBR1000RR, Yamaha's 03-05 R1 and '05 R6 also had radial calipers, but the carrier bolt circle looks to be a different size so it will be more work to fit them to a different wheel.

[Guest Swiffer]

I'm selling the forks so I finally had the triples and steering stem off.

As I slide the RC51 stem in I notice something is wrong, IT IS A RC51 02 OR LATER MODEL, (in Europe called SP2)!!

D#%&ed, I knew I had to use a early (SP1) model and I tried to make sure that the guy knew what it was he was selling. Didn't help this time... Now a 929 unit is in the mail. I would rather have a RC51 lower triple (gullwing), but they are not as easily accessible here in Europe (I can find them at the brakers, but they are expensive!) let's se if it works out this time...

[SAFE-T]

As I slide the RC51 stem in I notice something is wrong, IT IS A RC51 02 OR LATER MODEL, (in Europe called SP2)!!

The RC51 SP-2 from 2002 on used a larger diameter steering stem. Did you find the lower triple fit in the headstock but not the upper triple ?

[Guest Swiffer]

The RC51 SP-2 from 2002 on used a larger diameter steering stem. Did you find the lower triple fit in the headstock but not the upper triple ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, the lower triple bearing was too big and the VFR bearing was too small to fit the RC51 stem (late model... why don't you guys also call it a SP2, that way there would be no more confusion in this issue - on the other hand my last post kinda kills this last sentence).

For a moment I was afraid that the 4:gen model have another steering stem than later VFR models :o (can't remember seeing information about this, I just took for granted they were the same), but then when I saw that my top triple from a 929 fits on the original 4:th gen stem I felt a little better.

Vfroem: No haven't tried Durbahn... for some reason it never occurred to me, I'll check his prices thanks for the tip! I'll try the 929 first though.

But then, when surfing the Durbahn pages my Frankenbiker horns (?) grows to obscene sizes, if you get my meaning. :D

[SAFE-T]

These look like an option. It says in the list on their page that the rise is adjustable, but in the pic I don't se anything that can move to do this adjustment. Is the adjustment by sliding it up and down the fork?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the Cycle Cat website:

2. Adjustment of Bar Height

Of course, angle setting affects bar height, and it is one way to modify height. In addition, bar height is determined by the rise built into the the riser and the position of the riser on the fork tube. That is, by locating the bar riser up or down on the fork tube, bar height is changed. As different bikes will allow for different results, Cycle Cat extensively fits and tests its products to determine maximum ranges of adjustment. What you can expect is spelled out in the specs for each product.

I used a set of Tomasselli clip-ons. They are about half the price of any other aftermarket clip-on, look great and although they have a fixed height you could make them higher by making a spacer and using a longer hex bolt.

Here is where I got them.

[SAFE-T]

Ah crap - a math question :rolleyes: I haven't written half of this down, but here is my explanation, supported by the facts as I remember them.

With a flat-top triple clamp off an SP-1, the forks are almost dead even with the top, but the CBR929/954 gullwing triple drops down enough that you have room for the clip-ons on top of them.

Notice that the clip-ons are now mounted approx. 30mm lower than they were with the stock forks.

The VFR uses a flat-top triple, and therefore the stock forks HAVE to be 32mm longer so the clip-ons have some fork tube to clamp onto.

[Blue Viffer]

I'm selling the forks so I finally had the triples and steering stem off.

As I slide the RC51 stem in I notice something is wrong, IT IS A RC51 02 OR LATER MODEL, (in Europe called SP2)!!

D#%&ed, I knew I had to use a early (SP1) model and I tried to make sure that the guy knew what it was he was selling. Didn't help this time... Now a 929 unit is in the mail. I would rather have a RC51 lower triple (gullwing), but they are not as easily accessible here in Europe (I can find them at the brakers, but they are expensive!) let's se if it works out this time...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For those of you that don't understand the difference in the early versus late RC 51 Steering stem. Here is a picture of the two side by side. The 2000-2001 is the one on the left. It is the same as a 929 or 954 steering stem except for the gull wing shape. Therefore the forks can mount lower in the clamps and you will have room on top for handlebars above the stock 929 or 954 top clamp.

Hope this helps.

p.s. the one on the left has the steering stops cut off for my instalation on Blue Frankenviffer.

vince

Edited March 12, 2005 by Blue Viffer

[SAFE-T]

(Edited) The 2000-2001 RC 51 (SP-1) steering stem is the same as a 929 or 954 steering stem except for the gull wing shape.? Therefore the forks can mount lower in the clamps and you will have room on top for handlebars above the stock 929 or 954 top clamp.

vince

Not really. You still need the same length of fork below the steering stem to maintain proper steering geometry, and the shape of the lower clamp has nothing to do with this.

It is the gullwing shape of the UPPER clamp that gives you the room to mount the clip-ons. I have a diagram of this if anyone can convert it to jpeg format and post it for me.

jwahrmund - not actually a sociologist, but I did study it in school. Along with Economics, Advertising, and Public Relations. None of which I use in the formal sense in my self-employment doing plumbing repair and drain cleaning, but I finally figured out around 2 yrs. ago my sense of satisfaction in life was not going to come from the working world.

You can bet if you put a Canadian in the middle of frickin' nowhere they'll find a way to make good beer sooner or later... :lol:

[Blue Viffer]

It is the gullwing shape of the UPPER clamp that gives you the room to mount the clip-ons. I have a diagram of this if anyone can convert it to jpeg format and post it for me.

I agree with the upper clamp that gives room to mount the clip-ons.

That is why I suggest stock 929 or 954 upper, it is a gullwing shape and when used with the lower early RC 51 Steering stem gives plenty of room for asjustability.

vince

[Guest Swiffer]

Hey Swiffer How are you coming on your Front End?

vince

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a severe time problem at the moment!

The progress is slow to say the least. I have all the stuff to mount the fork but so far I have only tried to install the 929 steering head. It sure is cramped down there. I think I will have to shave off a piece of the faring that is right at the lower triple clamp, on both sides. Nobody will think of it unless he's a 4:th gen expert. The oil cooler hose rubbing problem will be bigger it seems at the moment) than I've heard from 5:th gen swappers. I don't think a RC51 early model (SP1) lower triple will do. It does not seem to have enough gullwing to clear the hoses. I may need to move the oil cooler forward, but then the hoses will be too short, or rearward, behind the triples, but then I don't know how it will affect cooling.

But all this is very preliminary thinking. I need more garage-time for a proper evaluation.

[Blue Viffer]

I have a severe time problem at the moment!

The progress is slow to say the least. I have all the stuff to mount the fork but so far I have only tried to install the 929 steering head. It sure is cramped down there. I think I will have to shave off a piece of the faring that is right at the lower triple clamp, on both sides. Nobody will think of it unless he's a 4:th gen expert. The oil cooler hose rubbing problem will be bigger it seems at the moment) than I've heard from 5:th gen swappers. I don't think a RC51 early model (SP1) lower triple will do. It does not seem to have enough gullwing to clear the hoses. I may need to move the oil cooler forward, but then the hoses will be too short, or rearward, behind the triples, but then I don't know how it will affect cooling.

But all this is very preliminary thinking. I need more garage-time for a proper evaluation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Take your time and do it right. Make sure you read our last few posts on the front suspension rake trail adjustments you might need to make due to the difference in rake of the tripple clamps. When you get yours together take it easy riding to get the feel for the steering. You might need to change the ride height to give you less trail so it steers either like it did or better.

Enjoy the pursuit.

vince

[Guest vfrrider]

Swiffer,

Brilliant solution to the oil cooler quandary. Does it clear lock to lock? :squid:

Safe-T, shims for the disk to caliper issue? Made of what, homemade washers of what or can you get precision washers/stock. Size, special facing, etc? i.e is aluminum OK or must they be steel with anti squeal on them, etc.

How about axle spacers, easiest way recommendation others than aluminum stock? How "snug" should they be? Is the OCC school good enough. What did your final approximate size, each side, turn out to be? :wheel:

Larry

VFRrider

Still trying to make R1 forks work, maybe successful this year, at this pace.

[SAFE-T]

Safe-T, shims for the disk to caliper issue? Made of what, homemade washers of what or can you get precision washers/stock. Size, special facing, etc? i.e is aluminum OK or must they be steel with anti squeal on them, etc.

How about axle spacers, easiest way recommendation others than aluminum stock? How "snug" should they be?

Larry, did you have your R1 axle turned down ?

I had to shim my brake calipers IN 2mm per side, and shim the rotors OUT 2mm per side (Marchesini wheel with Ducati 'R' model rotors in RC51 fork) Used regular flat washers.

My axle spacers are steel, so I painted them. Use a set of calipers to get an accurate measurement on each side.

[Guest Swiffer]

Larry, did you have your R1 axle turned down ?

I had to shim my brake calipers IN 2mm per side, and shim the rotors OUT 2mm per side (Marchesini wheel with Ducati 'R' model rotors in RC51 fork) Used regular flat washers.

My axle spacers are steel, so I painted them. Use a set of calipers to get an accurate measurement on each side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The R-model rotors, what offset do they have?

And the non-R offset?

I'm not getting rotors until I have my wheel in place and can measure the offset needed.

When reading the info on offset and type of bike they will fit (on e-bay) I get kind of confused. There seems to be no shortage though.

[SAFE-T]

'R' model Ducati's came with Ohlins forks and different rotors. The standard Ducati fork is a Showa unit that used a rotor with a 5mm carrier offset, while the 'R' model rotors had a 10 mm offset.

The 'R' model brake discs are sometimes referred to as 'narrow band' rotors. The standard model brake discs have two different styles of carrier with the same offset - I had a set of 'snowflake' rotors originally.

[SAFE-T]

Yack's thread says you can't mix'n'match the CBR929/954 and CBR1000RR triple clamps since they have different offset.

So that also means you can't mix RC51 and CBR1000RR triples.

The 1000RR forks are also 15 mm shorter than the 929/954 forks, so I don't know if you could use them on the VFR...how do they compare lengthwise to your GSXR1000 forks, Swiffer ?

Also, if the CBR929/954 wheel will accept the CBR1000RR rotors, and the RC51/CBR929/954 rotors are interchangeable, henceforth the RC51 wheel will also accept the CBR1000RR rotors. Doesn't mean they will necessarily have the correct offset, but they will bolt on.