Kill switch not stopping engine

[SABen]

Good afternoon to all Viffer fanatics.

 

I bought a 2002 VTech about three weeks ago and the bike is a gem. Few small things I will fix on her, some already done.

 

My biggest headscratcher however is my kill switch / Ignition Switch

 

Bike will not start with either one of the two off - As it should

Engine will not stop when I hit the kill switch - Not normal

Engine will not stop when switched off at the ignition - Not normal

Engine stops when I hit the kill switch AND turn the ignition off.

 

As the bike is still in almost showroom condition I cannot think that anybody messed with the wiring (nothing is impossible) but I will go in and take a look when time affords it.

Can anyone give me a indication of how the cabling should run?

 

 

[Grum]

21 hours ago, SABen said:

Engine will not stop when I hit the kill switch - Not normal

Engine will not stop when switched off at the ignition - Not normal

Engine stops when I hit the kill switch AND turn the ignition off.

 

Wow very strange. Strong suspicion of modified wiring or possible wiring short 12v to 12v. Never heard of this one before.

 

Has this anomaly been there since you picked it up 3 weeks ago or only just happened? This could potentially be a warranty issue if purchased from a dealership. You have a strong case here, you have an incorrect and potentially dangerous situation.

 

Kill Switch has two functions when in the Kill position.

1. Engine Stop Relay coil 12v is removed Black wire = Dead Engine.

2. Removes 12v Starter Relay coil voltage on the Yellow/Red wire = Starter will not Crank over the engine.

 

Question - Can you crank the Engine with the Kill Switch NOT in the RUN position, it shouldn't crank?

 

Ignition Switch to Off Kills power to sub Fuses C, E and F refer the attached drawing ( 2005 model should be similar to yours).

Loss of power to fuse C being the 12v power to the Kill Switch and the Bank Angle Sensor also knocks out the Engine Stop Relay to kill the Engine.

 

Engine Stop Relay is not being controlled properly by the sound of things.

 

Have you got the Service Manual? You can download it from this forum.

Do you have a multimeter?

If Yes then...

Suggest you follow the Kill Switch power path...refer attached wiring diagram. 

1. Measure Voltage at the Engine Stop Relay on the Black wire there should ONLY be 12v on this wire when Kill Switch is in RUN position with Ignition to On. Activate the Kill switch a few times while monitoring the voltage. It might be easier to monitor this voltage at the 18P Blue connector located just forward above the L/H radiator, remove the left side cowl.

What do you measure every time you operate the Kill Switch? 

 

[SABen]

Hi Grum

Thank you for the reply

 

Private sale, so no dealership.

 

When kill switch is in the Off position the engine does not crank.

 

It seems I need to start with Fuse C and the Engine Stop Relay.

 

I will give feedback once I had the time to check this.

 

Apparently the dealership that serviced the bike told the previous owner there is nothing wrong and that it is part off the HISS system. Yet another reason I don't trust dealerships anymore.

[Grum]

19 hours ago, SABen said:

Hi Grum

Thank you for the reply

 

Private sale, so no dealership.

 

When kill switch is in the Off position the engine does not crank.

 

It seems I need to start with Fuse C and the Engine Stop Relay.

 

I will give feedback once I had the time to check this.

 

Apparently the dealership that serviced the bike told the previous owner there is nothing wrong and that it is part off the HISS system. Yet another reason I don't trust dealerships anymore.

That's one good thing, the Kill Switch when activated does inhibit Cranking.

"When kill switch is in the Off position the engine does not crank"

- Sorry to be pedantic assume you Did have Ignition to ON when checking this?

- Very Important for diagnosis, Please Check exactly this - Ignition ON, Kill Switch OFF, Press Starter Switch - Does the engine Crank ?

 

Absolutely completely wrong that either Kill OR Ignition Switch doesn't stop the engine. HISS cannot cause the condition you have. Crazy to think a dealership would say such a thing!

 

 Questions..

- With the Engine Running. Then turn Off only the Ignition Switch (assume the engine continues to run). Do the Headlights go Off and the Instrument Panel go blank?

- And with engine running, Sidestand Down, Clutch In shift to in Gear. Does the Engine immediately Stop as it should?

- Can you identify any strange non OEM looking wiring anywhere on the bike, you'll need to remove a lot of plastic to check this?

 

As possibly only a part of the fault. I'd be checking to see if the Bank Angle Sensor has been bypassed. Meaning its unplugged and the Red/Yellow wire is jumpered to the Green wire. Or the Red/Yellow wire simply Grounded.

 

I think the bottom line here (at this stage!) is that the ESR is possibly staying energised when it obviously shouldn't. Hopefully!! a few voltage checks might find out Why.

[WDIV]

Not to be discouraging at all but I'm glad I'm not the only one who bought a VFR and is dealing with some wackadoo problems lol

[ShipFixer]

Both my kill switch and ignition key switch were dirty.  I had intermittent connectivity through them which caused some random and inopportune shutdowns.  It's possible that you could have something else causing continuity in there.

 

Not hard to disassemble and clean the kill switch and clean it up, and fix whatever is going on in there.  Ignition key switch is a little bit tricky to get to, but can be done with universal joints and some extensions.

 

 

[SABen]

19 hours ago, Grum said:

 

 Questions..

- With the Engine Running. Then turn Off only the Ignition Switch (assume the engine continues to run). Do the Headlights go Off and the Instrument Panel go blank?

- And with engine running, Sidestand Down, Clutch In shift to in Gear. Does the Engine immediately Stop as it should?

- Can you identify any strange non OEM looking wiring anywhere on the bike, you'll need to remove a lot of plastic to check this?

 

Questions..

- Keys off and out - Lights and Instrument panel stays on while engine keeps running

- Yip - Its the quickest way at this stage to kill the engine

- This I will need to check when I have time to start stripping.

 

I'll remove the front fairing over the weekend and check the power to the engine stop relay as well as try to trace the kill switch cable

[SABen]

14 hours ago, WDIV said:

Not to be discouraging at all but I'm glad I'm not the only one who bought a VFR and is dealing with some wackadoo problems lol

Second hand vehicles, esp. ones that are over 20 years old - You know you're going to be fixing some stuff. At least she runs smooth and rides like a dream

[Grum]

1 hour ago, SABen said:

- Keys off and out - Lights and Instrument panel stays on while engine keeps running

RIGHT - This explains part of the Fault. The Ignition Switch is faulty or you have a Red wire to Red/Black wire short, powering Fuses C,D,E, and F. Refer Ignition Switch wiring on previous diagram. 

But how on earth does activating the Kill Switch then turn Off power to these circuits??

Strange wiring modifications maybe.

Important now to check all voltages at the ESR with Ignition ON/OFF and Kill switch 12v Power to ESR Black wire.

 

Note - Engine can Only continue to Run if 12v Power on the all important EFI power wire being the Black/White from the ESR is there when it shouldn't be. eg When Kill Switch activated or Ignition to OFF.

[SABen]

1 hour ago, ShipFixer said:

Both my kill switch and ignition key switch were dirty.  I had intermittent connectivity through them which caused some random and inopportune shutdowns.  It's possible that you could have something else causing continuity in there.

 

Not hard to disassemble and clean the kill switch and clean it up, and fix whatever is going on in there.  Ignition key switch is a little bit tricky to get to, but can be done with universal joints and some extensions.

 

 

Both work fine on their own as far as I can see. When either one of the two are of they give a clean switch to ON, but somehow they need to both be off before the engine stops, So I'm not sure the issue is in the switches, but will check them as well

 

[SABen]

7 minutes ago, Grum said:

RIGHT - This explains part of the Fault. The Ignition Switch is faulty or you have a Red wire to Red/Black wire short, powering Fuses C,D,E, and F. Refer Ignition Switch wiring on previous diagram. 

But how on earth does activating the Kill Switch then turn Off power to these circuits??

Strange wiring modifications maybe.

But now I can do you one more - When the engine is not running, the ignition switches off normally, and it doesn't matter if the kill switch is on or not

[Grum]

19 minutes ago, SABen said:

But now I can do you one more - When the engine is not running, the ignition switches off normally, and it doesn't matter if the kill switch is on or not

 

Bloody hell!  Now I'm really confused, this is crazy. Check for Non OEM wiring.

 

Are you able to get any feedback from the previous owner as to wiring changes or anything done electrically to the bike?

[Grum]

Can you unplug the R/R run the engine, is there any change to the Ignition Switch operation? Grasping at straws a little now.

 

- Suggest accessing the Ignition Switch 4P plug and do some continuity checks confirming good Switch operation. Refer bottom left corner of wiring diagram for Switch Connection Table.

 

I'm struggling to relate your symptoms to the wiring diagram, also struggling with what or how a wiring modification could induce such strange issues with two separate switch functions.

[ShipFixer]

37 minutes ago, SABen said:

Both work fine on their own as far as I can see. When either one of the two are of they give a clean switch to ON, but somehow they need to both be off before the engine stops, So I'm not sure the issue is in the switches, but will check them as well

 

Mine appeared to be good.  The switches are essentially open mechanisms looking up, so all sorts of things will have fallen and washed into them over 22 years. 

 

The other way to check this is at the starter harness plug for continuity.  You don't need to remove the fairing, it's by the battery under the saddle.  A voltmeter will tell you if the circuit is truly open when either of the switches is open, and closed when they are both closed.

[SABen]

Previous owner left everything to dealers, I showed him some faults he was not aware of when viewing the bike so not much there

 

Will remove the fairings this weekend and start measuring and tracing and checking for cables that aren't part of the loom.

 

Will make some notes as I go as this will be my first time chasing a electrical issue and that wiring map is already making my eyes hurt

[Grum]

12 hours ago, SABen said:

Previous owner left everything to dealers, I showed him some faults he was not aware of when viewing the bike so not much there

 

Will remove the fairings this weekend and start measuring and tracing and checking for cables that aren't part of the loom.

 

Will make some notes as I go as this will be my first time chasing a electrical issue and that wiring map is already making my eyes hurt

Some good voltage checks especially around the ESR, voltage on fuse test points Ignition On and Off, visual inspections for strange wiring, continuity check of Ignition Switch function. Are all good starting points.

 

Download the Service Manual form the forum if you don't have it.

 

May the Force be With You....There's plenty of info to get the ball rolling, very interested in what you may discover, post photos.

 

Strangest VFR fault I've ever heard of!

[SABen]

Time just doesn't seem on my side. 

 

At last got the a gap to get the right fairing off and immediate found non factory cabling.

 

There is a wire running from my red&black ignition wire to the brown wire on the fuel pump. Looks like it was done long ago as the glue on the insulation tape has started to turns into dandruff.

 

Hopefully I will get a gap to disconnect and see what happens this weekend, but I suspect it was a emergency repair to get power to the fuel ump and in the meanwhile the "broken" brown cable fixed itself and now the fuel ump is supplying power to the system after I switch of the ignition.

 

I also found a cable that looks to be connected to something to stop it moving too far - at first thought it was supposed to attach the tank to the frame, but saw no missing/empty bolts.

 

I have a karate competition Saturday, so again time away from the garage and Sunday morning has already been booked by the wife as well.

[WDIV]

2 hours ago, SABen said:

 

I also found a cable that looks to be connected to something to stop it moving too far - at first thought it was supposed to attach the tank to the frame, but saw no missing/empty bolts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's a hole in between the two bolts on the tank that it gets attached to with a screw/bolt.

[Grum]

Given your weird scenarios there had to be some strange, non standard wiring going on! That wiring is a shocker, a disaster waiting to happen! Finally things make sense!

 

Here's your original three abnormal issues.

1. Engine will not stop when I hit the kill switch - Not normal

2. Engine will not stop when switched off at the ignition - Not normal

3. Engine stops when I hit the kill switch AND turn the ignition off.

 

1. Finding a wire going from the switched Red/Black Ignition Switch wire to the Fuel Pump Brown means the whole EFI system is now powered by two sources. The ESR Black/White wire, and the closed contacts of the FCR via the added wire. Keeping the system and FCR in a power loop!. This explains situation 1.

 

2. Switching the Ignition Off alone won't work because the added wire is getting a continuous voltage feed back from the ESR closed contacts. Both BAS and ESR relay coil 12v remain powered until the Kill Switch activation removing the ESR coil power.

 

3. Both switches need to be off to break the power loop.

 

Good luck, get that Fuel Pump wiring properly sorted back to standard, completely remove the added wire from the Ignition Switch Red/Black wire. Hopefully all should be back to normal!

 

Keep us posted.

[SABen]

Additional wire disconnected and all works as it should. 

 

Started checking all the connectors on the right of the bike and they looked like new, no corrosion, all still nice and shiny.

 

Sprayed them all di-electric grease before reconnecting them. 

 

Still to do the rights and the front and to remove the earth block to make sure no problems comes from there.

 

Then to fit a Voltmeter/USB charger

 

When I have done all of that I will take her out and make sure the Fuel pump keeps going while I'm riding.

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I'm going to come here a lot to make sure I keep this girl running as sweet as she is now.

[Grum]

3 hours ago, SABen said:

Additional wire disconnected and all works as it should. 

 

Good news Ben.

Gotta wonder why anyone would add a wire like that, crazy! Couldn't believe a dealership would do such a thing, how about the previous owner? Has to be the weirdest wiring mod I've ever come across, a setup that required both Ignition and Kill Switches to be Off to stop the Engine and the BAS useless in a tipover situation - amazing. Glad it's all sorted.

[Nats]

Hi, so my bike “runs on” when it’s properly up to temperature, fan running, we’re talking about 106 degrees ish. Doesn’t do it when cold.

 

If I switch off the ignition the engine does a few more revolutions before cutting out, even though the dash and all lights switch off when I turn the key, almost like dieseling.

 

I once worked on a Gixxer that you could turn the key and remove it from the barrel and the engine would still run happily. Turned out to be the main ignition connector had melted and was shorting everything together.

 

My bike has an after market ignition from before I bought it, it had no feed to the fan previously so I had to create a feed as my bike kept over heating (go figure!). I wonder if somethings broken down.. strip down needed I think. 

[Grum]

3 hours ago, Nats said:

Hi, so my bike “runs on” when it’s properly up to temperature, fan running, we’re talking about 106 degrees ish. Doesn’t do it when cold.

 

If I switch off the ignition the engine does a few more revolutions before cutting out, even though the dash and all lights switch off when I turn the key, almost like dieseling.

 

I once worked on a Gixxer that you could turn the key and remove it from the barrel and the engine would still run happily. Turned out to be the main ignition connector had melted and was shorting everything together.

 

My bike has an after market ignition from before I bought it, it had no feed to the fan previously so I had to create a feed as my bike kept over heating (go figure!). I wonder if somethings broken down.. strip down needed I think. 

Are we talking of a 2001 5th gen?

 

Your engine can only continue to run if the EFI system is still powered via the Black/White wire coming from the ESR (Engine Stop Relay). Perhaps the Relay has a problem with heat and latching on temporarily!

Suggest as a starting point to isolate the ESR by swapping the ESR with your Hi Beam Relay, see how that goes.

 

Assume you are also saying that stopping the engine with the Kill Switch has exactly the same effect??

 

If the voltage on the Black/White disappears instantly at switch OFF as it should (measure the Voltage), and you still have some form of "dieseling" effect going on, then could be leaky injectors, carbon hotspots, new plugs needed, possible leaky fuel pressure regulator......

 

Explain the wiring mod you did to get power to your Fan Fuse? A simple jumpering of the Red/Black switched wire from the Ignition Switch to the fan power Blue/Orange wire is all that would be needed. This should in No way effect your EFI.

Do you have the wiring diagram of your bike?