BartmanEH

On 5/3/2020 at 4:09 PM, Cogswell said:

[...]

• Close the bleed valve while holding the SMC plunger in.  Keep the SMC under pressure - do not release it. [...]

While a PITA, IMHO this is a step that should not be skipped.  As we've seen with bikes that have rear calipers that will not release, the SMC can be a villain in that process, so keeping the fluid clean is important.

^^^this. I've asked for this step to be modified in the guide a few times and many people are missing this important step--close the bleeder between actuating SMC and before refilling with rear pedal. I reference this in my short form guide.

On 10/10/2016 at 3:52 PM, RBPOL said:

I am new to this thread. I have taken off the left caliper and am trying to see if pushing on the rear pedal will push out the SMC--it cannot no mater what I try. Suggestions??

This is why I recommend closing the bleeder between actuating SMC and pressing pedal per my short form guide. Closing the bleeder (even if it's a Speedbleeder) and then pressing the pedal will force the SMC back out thus filling it.

[...]Of those who are interested, what's the general consensus on an upper price threshold? That conversation should probably happen (again) before we continue down this path and end up with a $1XX kit.

Something in the order of $80/pair maybe? I'm Canadian and need to add 40% to that :-(

I edited the post above and updated it based on this year's fluid change experience.

As a follow up to this, I'm glad to report that many thousands of kilometers later, this mod is working fine for me. My concern - stated in previous post - over splitting the signal and creating an additional load on the VSS is unfounded since [1] it's working fine and [2] the original wiring splits the VSS signal into the speedometer circuit and the ECM anyway so it's always had the load of those two circuits. With this mod and and the Speedohealer installed, the load on the VSS is the Speedohealer and ECM instead of the Speedometer and ECM - that amounts to the same thing. We're all good!

Jay, the photo in "G. Left Front Caliper, Inner/Centre Bleed Screw" shows actuating the SMC, but I think this line is done with the rear brake pedal - please confirm.

Also, for the record, I never remove the front left caliper for fluid replacement - I just manually actuate the SMC with the caliper in place. Works fine and you don't risk wearing out the mounting bolts or squeezing the pads together making reassembly difficult.

I'd also like to point out that with speedbleeders, when doing the SMC line, if you don't close the speedbleeder on PCV, the rear pedal will not force the SMC back out very effectively - most of the pressure seems to bypass the SMC and escape out the PCV speedbleeder. I figured this out too late after doing two bikes' fluid replacement. For that line you really are better off closing the valve between SMC squeezes. The problem is that the speedbleeders have sealant on the threads and don't like to turn easily and will get the sealant worn off quickly if you do close and open it so many times. I'm going to look into getting a fancy (expensive) Stahlbus bleeder for at least this one troublesome position - they're designed for maintenance free opening and closing.

Jon, I'm revitalizing this thread. Tonight I rewired my SpeedoHealer as you suggested. I do feel better about the concept that the ECU will now be getting the stock unmodified signal as it was designed to do and the corrected SpeedoHealer signal now runs just to the instrument panel and speedometer.

So, first of all, a huge thank you to Jon (Coderighter) for his excellent research on this and for sharing his great solution. The only thing I did differently is that I removed the pin from the instrument side of the light grey connector and soldered my new wire directly onto the upper part of the pin contact where the original pink wire is crimped. This way I can remove the heat shrink tubing, desolder my added wire and return the pin contact into the grey connector and restore the factory wiring.

My concern is, having now split the speed sensor signal into the ECU and the SpeedoHealer, if this signal is not designed for a high impedance input, I have just increased the load on this signal. I mean, if the speed sensor's output is a whimpy hall effect type signal that requires special receiver circuitry for amplification etc., then I have just seriously compromised the circuit and, hence, the reliability.

Now I am inclined to research the speed sensor and what type of signal it generates. The Honda FSM refers to it as the VSS (vehicle speed sensor). It is maybe a magnetic field anomaly detector or similar. It doesn't touch anything but rather is positioned very close to the front sprocket's teeth and detects them as they whir around. As such, it seems to be a rather delicate signal. Power is applied to the VSS, along wi reference ground, and it generates a modulated gentle signal of some sort.

I wonder how delicate this signal might be and whether it might be affected by the apparent load of the SpeedoHealer's corresponding signal input circuit which, like the ECU, would be designed to amplify this wonky special signal of the VSS.

Meh, that's just the anal retentive electrical engineer part of me over analyzing and worrying. Bottom line is, if it works, it works! I'm gonna have two fingers of scotch right now to calm myself down :-)

Replacing the brake fluid in my ABS model--that was really something. There are no less than 7 bleeders! It took 3 people to do it. The first person operated the level/pedal and refilled the reservoirs as required, the second person opened/closed each bleeder in succession and the third person was required for the one bleeder that required manually pumping the second master cylinder on the left front brake. I will definitely be looking into SpeedBleeders or Stahlbus Bleeders for the next time to simplify the process.

In the meantime, I thought I'd document the procedure I came up with for doing the brake fluid change. The Service Manual has a few errors in it e.g. tells you to remove and tilt up the fr. left caliper but never tells you to reinstall it and it tells you refill and reinstall the lever reservoir cover but then goes on to bleed a few more bleeders that use fluid from that reservoir. There's been a lot of posts about what the correct order is and people having problems with spongy brakes which turned out to be because they forgot a bleeder or did it in the wrong order. The following system worked very well for the two 6th gen ABS models I did last fall. It's not a tutorial per se; there's no pictures and no details (for that, you can look up the excellent HS pictorial-based tutorial or the new Jay-D tutorial) and I didn't include obvious steps like removing the seat etc.

Note: although recommended in the FSM and elsewhere, I don't remove the front left caliper for fluid replacement—only when I need to bleed air which is normally not required for fluid replacement. I just manually actuate the SMC with the caliper in place. Works well and you don't risk wearing out the mounting bolts or squeezing the pads together making reassembly difficult. In fact, I don't remove the rear wheel or the rear caliper anymore either!

I made an overall hydraulic system picture by combining elements of several pictures from the Factory Service Manual:

This took a lot of image manipulation to create but it was worth it. This overall view of the braking hydraulic circuit helps to visualize how the system works. For example, it clearly shows that the Second Master Cylinder (SMC) is refilled from the rear reservoir with the pedal.

These are the steps you need to take:
 

- Turn handlebar all the way to the left to level Lever Reservoir
- Open Lever and Pedal Reservoirs
- Remove old fluid from Lever and Pedal Reservoirs
- Fill Lever and Pedal Reservoirs with new fluid

- Remove the rear wheel (not necessary!)
- Remove Rear Brake Caliper and install on top rear of Rear Brake Disc at 10 o'clock position (not necessary!)

- Maintain fluid level in both Reservoirs at all times, check between steps below

Operate the Lever during bleeding of the initial two bleeders in the following order:

Lever Brake Line: Master Cylinder to Front Brake Caliper

[1] Left Front Brake Caliper outer (upper) bleeder (use Lever)
[2] Right Front Brake Caliper bleeder (use Lever)

- Refill Lever Reservoir as required to Upper Level Mark
- Close Lever Reservoir (done with this reservoir)

Servo Brake Line: Second Master Cylinder to Servo Proportional Control Valve
NOTE: this bleeder (even if it's a SpeedBleeder) must be closed after each manual activation of the SMC;
[3a] open Servo Proportional Control Valve bleeder (left/battery side)

[3b] manually actuate Second Master Cylinder at Left Front Caliper
[3c] close bleeder (if you don't close the bleeder or SpeedBleeder on SPCV, the rear pedal will not force (refill) the SMC back out very effectively)

[3d] use Pedal to recharge Second Master Cylinder (SMC)

repeat [3a]-[3d] several times

Servo Brake Line: Rear Proportional Control Valve to Rear Brake Caliper
[4] Rear Brake Caliper Center bleeder (use Pedal)

Operate the Pedal during bleeding of the remaining three bleeders in the following order:
Pedal Brake Line: Rear Master Cylinder to Rear Proportional Control Valve
[5] Rear Proportional Control Valve (right side) bleeder (use Pedal)

Pedal Brake Line: Rear Proportional Control Valve to Rear Brake Caliper
[6] Rear Brake Caliper Outer bleeder (use Pedal)

Pedal Brake Line: Rear Master Cylinder to Left Front Brake Caliper
[7] Left Front Caliper Center bleeder (use Pedal)

- Reinstall Left Front Brake Caliper (if removed)
- Reinstall Rear Brake Caliper using new mounting bolts: 2 X 90131-GAA-000, BOLT, FLANGE (8X25) (torque 23ft-lbs) (if removed)
- Refill Lever and Pedal Reservoirs as required to Upper Level Marks
- Close Lever and Pedal Reservoirs

- Reinstall rear wheel (torque 80ft-lbs) (if removed)

I currently have the Acumen GPI installed. It's great and sunlight readable but it is quite laggy - takes a while for it to display the gear. Anyone have the luxury of a direct comparison between the Acumen GPI and the new GIPRO DS version GPI? Is the new GIPRO DS really that much faster?

Does anyone know a source for connector contacts for VFRs? [...] I just need to find a part number or source for these connector

contacts.

Hey DanY1, what did good 'ol Tighwad say? I'm thinking the same thing you are - work up a mod that doesn't involve hacking up the factory wiring.

Hey coderighter (thanks for the BMC filter, BTW), even though my Speedohealer is only making an 8% correction for my stock setup, is it possible that the bike will behave better if I make the mod you've suggested? Even small gains in ridability at small throttle openings are welcome. I do annual starter valve syncs and have a PCIII+O2elims both of which have gone a long way to making the bike behave nicely. If doing this mod would help in even the slightest way, I'd do it. Maybe the ECU is happier all around with the stock signal inputs.

[...] I thought I was a real smart bloke by hooking my MAP sensor up to the flapper valve vacuum hose so that the MAP sensor was working while I was doing the valve sync (and therefore not giving me any FI codes) [...]

Now see? I have a real problem with all this. First of all, hooking up the MAP sensor to the flapper vacuum line is probably not going to work because that vacuum line is controlled by a solenoid that is RPM based. I haven't thought is through but it's possible that there's no vacuum on that line at idle and that's why the MAP sensor wasn't happy.

I've always done my starter valve sync with the MAP sensor connected and have always managed to get what I thought was a good sync alignment. I should clarify and point out that with my homemade manometer setup, I have an extra T so I can hook up all 4 cyl's and the MAP sensor simultaneously. It's getting real system vacuum and maybe that's why it works for me. The "book" may say to leave the MAP sensor disconnected because they know that the standard manometer jig only has 4 ports and doesn't allow the MAP to be hooked up and get al system vacuum.

I've also never used an electronic tach - it couldn't possibly matter that much. Furthermore, I want the sync perfect where my idle normally is which is a bit higher than 1200 and more like 13-1400 to help with throttle response etc.

So, like BR, I'm looking for some consensus here about whether to keep sensors hooked up or to go "by the book" and keep some disconnected like the MAP sensor. After all, the book's not perfect or at least not very complete in the story it tells.

[...]Originally I though all the mercury was gone, but found some in the chamber which I poured out into a container. then cleaned it up and added ATF which was a major failure as it was just sucked up into the engine no matter what I did! :angry: [...]

BR

BaileyRock, dude... Sorry if I misled you to a small disaster with the ATF suggestion. Works great in homemade manometers. I didn't know you had Motion Pro.

Did you keep the mercury?? I wonder if mine is low or something. I seem to get air bubbles while running. If I shut it off, then back on, it is a solid column, then starts to get air pockets again. :angry:

If you're getting air bubbles, my experience tells me that you have a leak. In the first version of my homemade manometer, I got streams of air bubbles because of leaks around the T's. I don't know how repairable your manometer is though.

All cyls fluctuate except #2 which is rock steady.

Yeah, sounds like your manometer isn't damping the pulsing well - maybe only on the cyl #2 line. You should make one, it's not so hard.

ps my manoneter has lost all it's fluid, whats a decent replacement?

BR

I use ATF in my homemade manometer (description) because:

- It has a high viscosity so it moves slowly and acts as a natural damper

- it is red so it is very visible

- it won't likely harm the throttle body or engine if it accidentally gets sucked in (not likely anyway with the long hoses I use

- it's cheap and readily available

Last time I did my starter valve sync, I connected up everything I could including the IAT and MAP sensors (but blocked of the PAIR) and seemed to be able to sync them quite well. So what is the consensus here regarding the MAP sensor? Connect it or disconnect it for starter valve sync? For my homemade manometer (post about starter valve sync with homemade manometer), I have a tee installed in one of the lines so I can connect up all the throttle bodies AND the MAP sensor all at the same time. Seemed to work for me. Thoughts?

I'm emailing with Dynojet right now to get more information about PC Vs and older VFRs.

I have another question for coderighter. Since the PC V supports different maps for each gear, and your post says "separate maps for every gear (more on this later)", are you actually using this feature? The VFR does not have a gear position sensor so I'm wondering how this could be used.

I'm still confused... will the PC V for the 2009 VFR work on the 2006 model out-of-the-box? i.e. has the right harness connectors etc.?

Adam30 said ((My velocity stacks are short/tall in front and tall/short on the rear head. Ive double checked this a couple times, since thats how the Honda service manual illustrates they should be.))...

Are you sure about that? Mine are short in front and tall in the rear. If you look at the 2002 VTEC service manual, it's not clear about this. It shows 4 stacks and some are rotated which may make them appear taller/shorter but it's not clear where they go. However, if you look at the VFRD Parts List and navigate to the Air Cleaner, it shows 2 part numbers and they are the one part number in the front and the other part number in the rear. I'd say that clearly indicates that they're supposed to be short in front and tall in the rear.

Maybe this is the source of your trouble?