redmarque

New upper and lower designed and fabricated. Increased the area which the tubes join around the bearing cups for added strength.

Popped in on James the welder's shop this morning... Progress!!! :cheerleader:

While reading about programmable ignition and injection someone from 'elsewere' recommended IgniTech (Polish Company) Anyway looking though their product list.. Honda PGM-FI – VFR 98-02 http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm Setup could be a challenge and at 458 Euro it’s not cheap either.

Yep, it's going to be a challenge.. fortunately not for me though! I'm hiring the same guy whom did the welding on Mk1. After all this effort and accuracy I don't trust myself! The front parts of the legs and ajoining tubes aren't tacked on yet, so that the rear legs can be welded first.

Another goal reached! :biggrin: So pleased the forks are ready for welding. I'm never ever profiling tubes with such low angle joints and bends again! :blink:

The handlebar steering axis would ideally need to be directly above the fork turning axis (concentric). As the forks follow a curve as they move up and down, the steering axis can only be in perfect alignment at one part of the travel. Also as you turn the steering away from center the plane in which the fork turns and the handlebar turns become non-parallel slightly. it's worth incorparating a rod end ball type joint in the linkage to allow for this. If you don't make sure that the steering is as near concentric and parallel as possible you will get what's called 'bump steer' as the arms move up the linkage will turn the handlebars for you! I heard from a reliable source the prototype bimota tesi threw off the first test rider because of this issue. Car's also suffer from the same problem in there suspension systems Might be worth you making a model from balsa wood or simular so you can understand the forces. As to shock positioning: please take the challenge of putting it somewhere interesting! I'm no engineer so tried to keep it simple.. :491: Your planned rake figures seem rather relaxed... Have a read of this article by Tony Foale: http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm Watch One man's Dream - The Britten Story there's some footage of the bike without fairing on. Also highly insparational viewing for any project bike builder ! :blush:

I don't think you should have an issue with eccentric adjusters if you have a large enough surface area and clamping force. John Britten used an eccentric in the lower wishbone to adjust for ride height on the shock mount. Also have a look at this amazing TL1000R engined setup or pics here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~riccij/gallery.html another point.. if your going to change the rake by shortening the top wishbone. your steering/handlebar headstock must remain concentric and parallel to the fork axis. As it can't remain fully parallel though the entrire travel set it parallel at about 1/3 travel, if you understand my meaning.

Small update! :491: Here's the 10g 6061 T6 subframe ready to be welded. battery and ECU will hang inside here. Lower suspension arm sitting in it's fixture. Currently not happy with the join beween the bearing holder turned part and main tubes. Needs to be stronger as will take entire front end load under braking. :scratches head: emoticon

Bolt torque really depends on application For engine bolts, shock mounts and linkages use the service manual values for whichever model the parts are from. I'd recommend using loctite high or medium strength and put nylock nuts on everything else that might vibrate loose! Red

The bump stop in a shock is a hard rubber ring that is fitted around the shaft. At the end of stroke it takes the final impact once all the travel is used up. My point was to make sure that when the forks move up the bump stop is hit first not the fork hitting steering linkage! In Tony Foales FFE software you can add in the weight on front and rear, but you'll have to guess what they are until the finished/complete bike can go on the scales. You'll also have to add the weight of the rider! Once these final weights are set the shock's springs/damping can be altered to suit. hence why i'm getting someone else who knows what the're doing to change this for me. both front and rear sag will need to be measured and possibly ride height front rear will need adjustment too. As to the engine model - i spent many a fine hour measuring and re-measuring the motor and all parts before designing the frame. getting everything to fit together correctly is No1 priority! leant the hard way on Mk1

The advice I’d give is to pick a rear shock that acts in the same way as you plan to implement. I.e. direct attached to the swingarm or using some type if rising rate linkage Another consideration would be the suspension travel of your hossack fork, choosing a rear shock that has the required travel i.e cbr954 as I’m using has 63mm of travel and the fork moves 120mm. If you haven’t yet bought it Tony Foale’s FFE software is invaluable in calculating the detail for this aswell as the path and anti-dive information. http://www.tonyfoale.com/ I’ve picked the cbr954 shock because of it’s short overall length. This helps with packaging, so that the shock top mounting doesn’t have to be so high. Apart from the BMW duolever, shocks aren’t specifically designed for hossack use: you will probably have to get any shock you purchase re-sprung and re-valved to suit the weight and damping required. I’ve planned on using the stock shock as a template for a Nitron one that’s going to be specifically made and setup by PDQ in the UK ( The owner Larry Web worked with Norman Hossack when he did the original Hossack road conversions) Here’s a link to shock overall lengths and travel for various bikes http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/53111-honda-kawasaki-yamaha-and-suzuki-shock-lengths/ Also remember that shocks have bump stops which you’ll want to hit before the fork touches any steering linkage. Hope this helps. Red PS Do you have any pictures or design sketches of your project you could post? It’s always good to see how someone else looks at the design!

That's great! show's his design stands the test of time. Amazing how light/stiff the fork is too.

What's interesting about James Parker's new FFE design mentioned in the article is the No 1 local club racer could brake deeper into the corners than on his race bike even though he's used to Telescopic forks! Maybe we'll see something in the Moto2 class at some point?? As to hossackviffer frame kits and torochargers we will have to see.... Its early days whether the design will 'handle' yet. but if it goes well then it's a possibility. :biggrin:

With equal length wishbones, steering links can be really simple as long as the steering arm is parallel to the wishbones and the steering axis intersects the wishbone axes. For example, see this (non-Hossack) FFE -- two ball joints. James Parkers FFE Has an interesting linkage setup. Here's an article from the UK 'BIKE' Magazine from last year. He uses a telescopic tube to connect the upper wishbone to handlebars www.redmarque.com/gsxrradd.zip (6MB 5 pages) The Journo's comments about 'front end feel' are encouraging. Part of why I believe that FFE's haven't been accepted in racing is this 'lack of feel' of what the tyre is doing or hopefully a more realistic view the un familiar feel compared to telescopic forks.

Thanks for the complement Magicman! Ah the turbo encabulator...classic technogobble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboencabulator

Update time! After re-checking dimensions: the frame is nearly ready to be fully welded. The front and rear shock mount tubes need to be bored though on the mill. cleaned the tube ends with scotchbright and acetone to de-grease. I've bought a 5 spoke 2005+ R6/R1 front wheel and axle plus 320mm Galfer Wavy discs to fit. This has ment re-designing the forks for the correct offset and new disc diameter. Next job building the fork jig/fixture.

Sounds gooood. :idea3: Can we have a longer clip with more reving... plus more screaming at the end also? :offtopic:

Seb, that doesn't include rod used in welding. Had to search the forum: Stock 5th Gen frame weighs 7.6 kg without lower bearing race.(thanks tok tokkie)

Thanks Seb! I've calulated the weight of main frame with both stearing subframe and rear subframe in 4130 1.5mm tube at 7.3kg. I'd planned on the rear subframe to be made from 6061 T6 ali tube so 'should' be a bit lighter than that still. Forks are currently 3.5kg but with the front arms and part of the shock weight to add to that, maybe another 2kg. Apparently one cbr1000rr 06 fork leg weighs 3.35kg (7.4 lbs) an ohlins one is heavier at 8.4lbs.

Progress...more tubes! Strangly simular to the last pic but with a theme of grey and rust. I will need to re-cut and profile the rear ones for a better fit, but otherwise coming together. :biggrin: btw. 4130 tube works out at $45 per metre. What i bought was shipped from the US so could be cheaper for you!

A VFRD Member asked me about my rear caliper mod and how I delt with the torque arm. So hopefully this will help explain with pictures.. I trimed off the orginal mounting from the existing torque arm plate. Backside of the caliper needed to be trimed down to miss the wheelspokes - there is still plenty of metal left Removed the CBR600RR axle mounting and mated between the two by welding in profiled 8mm thick 6082 plates If i was making this again I think I would have positioned the caliper upright or slightly forward of the axle. Replaced the stock mounting bolts with stainless items and machined the bolt heads to make the wheel sit flush. There's curtainly some weight loss over stock; plus mounting the caliper above the arm will cut down on the amount of dirt, brake dust and corrosion. Rear wavy disc is from "BRAKING" http://www.braking.com/bk/sito.asp?pag=4

Cut the front upright tubes using the paper profile and careful use of angle grider! Sure enough they fit perfectly!

Got the angle gauge from 'ebay' for about £23 UK pounds. Here you go Seb. It's a cut and shut job of the standard 5th Gen mounting and a trimed down 600RR caliper mount with 8mm 6082 T6 plate shaped and welded in between (it's not my welding btw) I had to grind down the caliper's back to get the wheel spoke clearance. whether this setup will work well has yet to be proved as the caliper is back to front on the disc...

You can always count on SEB for encouragement! Cheers! :cheerleader: Liking the LED stip tail-light idea too... how about a cylon/night rider effect on switch on? :cheerleader: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLk0Ye2Vo7Y This has been very handy over the last few weeks.. making sure that the horizontal/verital tubes are perfectly alined to each other. It can be zeroed at any angle for reference and acurate to .1 Degrees.

I know It’s been awhile… but I’ve had some time to spend on Mk2! Frame fixture/jig is almost complete, some shimming and repositioning will be required once the tubes are cut and in place. Tubing profiles are all unwrapped from the CAD model. Some scratching of head will be involved to make a template for the bent connecting top tube. Also the order in which the tubes must be fitted and welded has to be worked out so they all go in without problems. In preparation for reworking the rear sub-frame design, I’ve purchased a pattern rs125 seat unit. It will require some “modification” to blend from the tank cover… but I’m please with the general look.