Misspent Youth

Nice install. Looking forward to underway test results (as opposed to operating in the garage) before I order mine. Not that anyone cares, but I did the whole "add new grounds, buttonhook new positives into the main battery cable, etc." which meant soldering in my new upgraded R/R, so I'll have to restore the stock setup first and then add the VFRness. My current charge runs 14.06-14.09 at 5K, with volts dropping from .09 to .06 as rpms rise. I'd like to get a solid 14.6 or so from the VFRness, in addition to a tidier install than my current home-wired setup. Thanks for the install post!

Good question. While waiting for Zam to respond, I'll say I suspect he'll say the main cable that the R/R wires tie into is plenty big enough to prevent backup. My own buttonhooking job has not melted down and still consistently puts out 14.06v at 5k, and up to 14.25 when rpm below that. I added inputs and grounds until the voltage wouldn't go any higher, so I'm satisfied I've overcome the small wires and am getting all the R/R has to offer (it was in the high 13v region before the rewire). My lay understanding of why the R/R got hot was because juice was backing up into the R/R due to the too small OEM wiring, and that the wiring free-up allowing more juice to the battery should let the R/R run cooler, but that hasn't occurred. The R/R still gets too hot to touch.

To clarify for me, you left the OEM arrangement for the R/R to the stock harness and just added wires to it? You didn't cut the R/R/harness connector out and direct-wire the R/R charge wires into the main battery lead? I took a different tack and may need to change it. I bypassed the stock charge wire and cut it out. I direct-wired the R/R charge wires together, then tied them to a single 12 ga wire that I ran to the postive battery post as an add-on. I figured the 12 ga wire would be sufficient, given the skinny R/R charge output wires, and didn't want more wire than I needed. Then I bypassed the stock harness and direct-wired the R/R ground wire to the brake valve ground, where the main battery ground attaches, again using 12 ga wire. I picked up a little (1/4 volt) with this direct wire arrangement, but, after hitting 14.6 or so at 1,500-2,500 rpm, then decreasing as rpm increases, still ends up at 13.94 v warm @5 k rpm, clean connections, brand new battery, brand new upgraded R/R and brand new Honda stator. Hence my interest in your technique. Thanks again. _________________________________________________ Correction to above - I had run a single 10 ga commoned GROUND from the R/R ground wires to the brake valve, and had run to the battery positive post a SINGLE 10 ga (not 12) wire commoned between the two R/R charge wires. That arrangement got me 13.94 v at 5k when warm (13.89 v when cold). This is WITHOUT the stock charge line. To implement the suggestions in this thread, I: 1. Left the added ground line to the brake valve. 2. Undid the commoned 10 ga wire to the postive terminal. 3. Ran TWO 12 ga wires, one from each R/R charging wire, to the same buttonhook hole in in the positive battery cable (soldered the connections w/butane torch). Result: 14.10 v at 3,500, 14.04-07 v at 5k. (Stock spec lower end is 14.0 v). Then: 1. Added EXTRA 10 ga ground from negative battery post to frame ground. Result: No change. 2. Added back in the STOCK charge line (16 ga?) to the positive battery post. Result: No change. I had previously cleaned both grounds (frame/brake valve), and the connectors for both battery terminals. The two wires off the R/R charging wires aren't affected by any uncleaned connections. Conclusion: It looks like I've added enough wire to allow the (upgraded Honda, w/1000 miles on it) R/R to deliver its max charge to the battery, and I've added enough grounds. It looks like the extra ground, and the stock charging wire, are unnecessary in that their presence doesn't allow any more juice to hit the battery. It looks like the max charge this particular R/R is putting out at 5k is 14.07 v., thought it easily hits 14.30 v in the lower rpm regions (declines as rpm rises until it stabilizes at the 14.04-07 v.). The stock setup with new battery, new stator, and new R/R never made more than 13.60 v at 5k. Doing these changes (or substantially similar changes) in this thread brought the charging output into the specified range, albeit at the low end, at 14.04-07).

Thanks for posting the diagram and explanation. I'm no electrical diagram reading guy, so please let me confirm that: You ran one 12 ga wire from each of the R/R's positive outputs and buttonholed them into the big stock to-the-battery positive terminal somewhere south of the terminal, itself (ignoring the amp meter issue). True? Then you ran the R/R ground directly to the battery negative terminal? Then you buttonholed the R/R ground to the frame ground? Then you ran a second ground from the R/R ground line from the battery negative terminal to the frame ground under the plastic? Then you ran a separate ground wire from the brake res to the frame ground? If true, you have no new wires added to the positive terminal, but two new wires added to the negative terminal? (one incoming from the R/R and a new one leaving to the frame ground) If not true, please clarify as to how these wires are physically attached. Sorry in advance if it's my electrical ignorance but if it helps, I am learning a lot, and others likely are, as well.

Did you test OEM wires w/Yamaha R/R before upgrading wires to determine which (or if both) made the difference?

Thanks for the tip. As for charging voltage distribution, as I understand how things are OEM wired, you are correct and the charging voltage-to-battery connection off of that skinny red wire is the last stop, after first passing through the starter solenoid, etc. My routing has taken the OEM harness (and consequently, the starter solenoid) out of the charging circuit completely. I've noticed no operational issues resulting therefrom, but I'll give some thought to reestablishing the OEM arrangement. Re: Engine ground point - I don't know, but that eliminating that possible ground point's corrosion issue (with consequent bad grounding, etc.) was one of the prime motivators for my wanting to carve the OEM harness out of the equation. Thanks again.

To clarify for me, you left the OEM arrangement for the R/R to the stock harness and just added wires to it? You didn't cut the R/R/harness connector out and direct-wire the R/R charge wires into the main battery lead? I took a different tack and may need to change it. I bypassed the stock charge wire and cut it out. I direct-wired the R/R charge wires together, then tied them to a single 12 ga wire that I ran to the postive battery post as an add-on. I figured the 12 ga wire would be sufficient, given the skinny R/R charge output wires, and didn't want more wire than I needed. Then I bypassed the stock harness and direct-wired the R/R ground wire to the brake valve ground, where the main battery ground attaches, again using 12 ga wire. I picked up a little (1/4 volt) with this direct wire arrangement, but, after hitting 14.6 or so at 1,500-2,500 rpm, then decreasing as rpm increases, still ends up at 13.94 v warm @5 k rpm, clean connections, brand new battery, brand new upgraded R/R and brand new Honda stator. Hence my interest in your technique. Thanks again.

Please describe what you mean by "commoned them". I can solder, but don't know the methods of connection, connectors to be used, etc. What is your method of connecting the new add'l 12 ga wire to the two green wires on the R/R plug? What fitting did you use at the battery positive terminal that accomodated the 2 new 12 gauge wires? Or did you use two separate fittings? Did you bypass the stock R/R feed to the stock harness through the white connector on the skinny red wire, or is that still connected? If so, how did you attach the two new 12 ga postive wires to the R/R positive output? Finally, why did you run the R/R negative to the frame, rather than to the battery (as you ran the R/R positive to the battery)? Thanks for your work on this. Very helpful.

I used to have a Honda Pacific Coast (V-Twin), which model was produced from 1989-1998, and those guys were always replacing their stators, which were probably similar, if not the same as, the ones we have in these bikes. For the record, I replaced my failing original r/r with Honda upgraded one and got 13.98 at 5k (had been at mid-13s before, and clock was starting to clear, etc., indicating problem when I bought it), would pop over 14 off idle, drop on rising rpm, etc. Stator checked OK statically and output 59 vac. Thinking to get the volts at 5k over 14, I then replaced the stator and volts to the battery actually DROPPED to 13.94, warm at 5k. Bike has 14k on it. Still pops over 14 v off idle to 2k or so, then drops off to the 13.94 (warm) (13.89 cold). Everything works, so taking a wait and see attitude here now.

Rather than reinvent the wheel, I'll here repost some good information from the UK VFR site about how your charging system works. Basically, your "stator" makes alternating current (AC), a/k/a electricity, it is sent to the "regulator/rectifier" (R/R) where the AC current is changed to direct current (DC) AND the voltage is "regulated" to something in the range of 14 volts. The R/R ties into your wiring harness and sends DC volts/amps into the battery, which may accept the charge if in good condition, or reject it, if the battery is failing or gone. If the R/R tries to stuff DC volts into a dying/dead battery, the power backs up and overheats the R/R, ruining it. If a new battery is forced to work with a dying R/R, the battery will overexert and die trying to run the bike, then you replace the R/R but if you don't replace the battery at the same time, the bad battery will kill the new R/R, and you start all over again. The stator can also go bad and/or have a bad connection to the R/R, but that is less likely. In any event, read the information below and let me know of questions. I'm sure others will come along with their input, as well. What is the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier and what does it do? The R/R is a little gizmo, a bit larger than a cigarette packet, that converts the AC output from the Alternator into a DC input for the battery - hence the Rectifier part of it's name. It also controls the DC input to the battery in a controlled voltage range - hence the regulator part of it's name. History The failure rate for this component on the '98 FiW and '99 FiX models is somewhere in the region of 70%. Generally, the failure of the R/R on the VFR gives an under-volt condition, i.e. it doesn't charge the battery. Mind you, there has been the odd, but much rarer, failure to the over-volt condition which boils the battery and can blow bulbs. The failures are mainly down to the inability of the R/R to shed heat, which then fries the electronics in them. If you touch one after a ride, you'll find it quite hot to the touch anyway. It is possible to fit a computer cooling fan to try and prevent the problem, but I think it merely delays the inevitable. An upgraded R/R is available for the '98 FiW and '99 FiX models with improved cooling capacity and has, so far, proved much more reliable than the original. The upgraded replacement is a direct replacement. Luckily, Honda realised there was a problem and replaced the R/R on the '00 FiY and later models for one that's a whole lot more reliable. The later one comes with an additional voltage sensing wire, which means it's not a direct replacement for the earlier model, but it's not insurmountable to fit one if you want. Symptoms The usual symptoms of the R/R going AWOL in the under-volt condition are:- 1. The clock resets to 1:00 AM and the tripmeter resets to 0 miles when you start the engine. 2. The engine fails to start, this can happen even if was running a few minutes previously. Often when you've stopped for fuel. 3. The rev counter and speedo needle start to do "strange" things. 4. The bike may start to stutter and cut out. The symptoms of the R/R failing to the over-volt condition can include:- 1. Blowing bulbs. 2. Boiled battery. Things to check Starting with the simple things:- 1. Check the battery connections are clean and tight. It's not been unknown for the connections to come loose. 2. Check the electrical connections to the R/R are clean. Sometimes they get corrosion in them, which ups the resistance and causes it to overheat. The overheating, in extreme cases, can melt the plastic. If those haven't sorted things out, you really need to buy a multimeter. These cost less than £10 and will prove a bonus from here on in. If you're not confident in using one - read the instructions and practise getting DC voltage readings from it. Start practising with a little dry cell (1.5 volts) battery if needs be - we all have to start somewhere. Warning:- Never, ever connect the multimeter to both battery terminals unless it's selected to the DC volts range. The resistance across the meter when selected to read volts is very, very high so it can measure the difference across the terminals without damage. The meter resistance when selected to amps is very, very low and would effectively short out the battery, possibly melting the leads and blowing the meter up. Now we're moving into the nitty-gritty. How old is the battery? Anything over 3 or 4 years old and it may be past it's best. As they deteriorate, batteries can lose their effective capacity, i.e. they behave as a smaller battery, so, it may be worth doing a selection of load tests on it. Battery Load Tests As with many electrical problems, make sure the battery is fully charged. If the charging system is playing up, you've only got a finite amount of power available from it. a. Off-load test - connect a voltmeter (selected to volts DC) to the battery and off load a fully charged battery should sit at about 12.7 or more volts. Even a failing battery can pass this test at times. b. Low-load test - a low load test is done with the engine stationary and just turning the bikes lights on and taking a voltage reading at the battery. The battery should have at least 11.5 volts with the lights on. c. High-load test - this is done when cranking the engine over on the starter motor. You should have more than 10.5 volts while the starting motor is cranking the engine. If the voltages are appreciably lower than those values, the battery is probably on it's way out. Replacement Batteries. If you need to replace the battery, then get a recognised and quality make. For example, the Yuasa YTX12-BS is available from Halfords at around £50. Before you fit it to the bike, ensure it's been fully charged. What model of R/R is fitted to your bike? If you lift the seat and have a look just outboard of the LH subframe rail, just behind the cutout in the rear fairing you'll see a grey box a bit larger than a cigarette pack. If it's made by Shendingen (who make them for Honda) you'll see a number on the top of it starting with SH. If it's SH579A-11, then you've one of the original and gloriously unreliable R/Rs fitted. If so, then there's a good chance it's put up the white flag. If the number on it is SH689DA, then you've got the upgraded item. As mentioned earlier, it is much more reliable than the original, but there is still the possibility of a random failure. Anything else is a non-standard or pattern-part R/R. For what it's worth the '00 FiY and '01 Fi1 models had R/Rs with SH579C-12 on them which are much more reliable. No matter which model is fitted, it'd be worth doing a charging system output voltage check. Output Voltage Test As alluded to already, the R/R fails when hot, but it can seem to recover when it's cooled down again. The ideal time to do this test immediately after a ride round, if possible without stopping the engine and remove the seat using the spare key. 1. With the voltmeter (set to the volts DC range) connected to the battery, at 4000 - 5000 rpm with the lights off you should have anywhere between 13.5 and 15.5 volts. 2. Turning the lights on could cause the voltage to drop by up to 0.5 volts. Anything seriously outside those ranges could indicate the R/R is giving up the ghost. Although Haynes specify the charging voltage should be 14.2 volts for the FiW/FiX models. It's nice if you can get it, but don't worry if you can't. For example, the upgraded SH689DA model regulates at 13.8 volts - chase the 14.2 volts and you'll be throwing a lot of serviceable R/Rs away. Another oddment, is some people say the lights should get brighter when you rev the engine. That isn't necessarily the case. The SH689DA model can provide more voltage at idle (or slightly above it depending on what idle speed you've got set) than at higher revs, for example, the one on my VFR provides 14.2 volts at idle, but 13.7 volts at 5000 rpm. Please be aware that multimeters can have slight errors between them. What one is reading could be very slightly different on another. If the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier is unserviceable Many thanks to Journeyman for this little bit of useful information. Because the alternator is mounted inside the engine the heat from the engine could affect the insulation on the alternator stator windings. The insulation may even break down between the windings. This typically happens under load and when the engine is hot. You will still get a good output voltage from the R/R, but as the VFR uses a delta wound stator, the alternator will give a much lower AC voltage and much higher AC current. I will warn you though, having received further information from Brain's, the following procedure may not conclusively prove the alternator stator serviceable or unserviceable. As Brain's reminds me, a multimeter doing resistance checks only uses a few volts, whereas the alternator at high speed may well be inducing in excess of 200 volts at high engine speeds - a much bigger test of the insulation of the windings. Therefore there is the real possibility that a multimeter will say everything is OK, but in use it may well not be. To check the insulation of the alternator stator coils you'll need to do the following:- 1. Disconnect the R/R connection to the alternator - the one with the 3 yellow wires. 2. Select the resistance (Ohms or Ω) range on your multimeter and touch the two probe ends together. The readout on the multimeter will give you the effective zero reading - so if there is a value shown and your multimeter cannot be zeroed - as many cheaper ones can't be, you'll have to deduct this number from any further measurement. 3. On the three yellow wires coming from the alternator (not the ones from the R/R by accident) measure the resistance between each of the wires in turn, i.e. have one probe on the connection to one yellow wire, then touch the other probe to the connections for the other two yellow wires. So if one probe is one wire 1, place the other probe on wire 2 then 3. Then move the probe from wire 1 and put it on wire 2, then place the other probe on wire 3. That way all combinations are covered. 4. The resistance readings in step 3 should be anywhere between 0.1 Ohm and 1 Ohm - remember to deduct the resistance reading you got in step 2 from the values you saw in step 3. 5. Now test the resistance between each of the yellow wires and earth. There should be no continuity, i.e. infinitely high resistance, between any of the yellow wires and earth. If the values in step 4 or step 5 are outside the tolerances, then there's a pretty good chance the alternator stator coils are knackered. Replacement Voltage Regulator/Rectifiers Use the upgraded OEM one. Electrex make one, but it's reliablity record isn't anything to shout about. To get an upgraded OEM one at a good price, try David Silver Spares who do them for £55 (plus VAT and P&P), which compares very favourably with about £200 from a Honda dealer for exactly the same item, just look in "OE Regulator Rectifiers" on their site. If you get the one from "Genuine Spares" area of the DSS site (£79 plus VAT and P&P), the extra money merely goes into buying a nice Honda box to throw in the bin when you've got the R/R out of it. The cheaper one is identical, just supplied in a poly-bag. Also included is a set of longer bolts (the upgraded R/R is thicker than the original as can be seen in this link) and an additional aluminium heatsink. Reuse the original domed nuts as these stop the bolt ends rubbing away at the nearby wiring loom. It can also pay dividends to put some heat transfer paste (available from outlets such as Maplins) between the R/R and the heatsink and between the heatsink and the rear subframe. That'll help transfer extra heat from the R/R into the subframe. I'd tend to advise, if the battery is over 3 years old or of unknown history, replacing that at the same time as the R/R. A failing battery can over-work the R/R hastening it's failure. The charging system voltage is OK, the battery load test voltages are good, the alternator resistance values are fine, but the battery still flattens quite quickly. Now we're looking at the battery leakage rate. This is the current (Amps) the bike draws even though everything is turned off. Ideally the leakage should be less than 1.2mA, but with an alarm fitted and armed it might marginally higher than that. It might be worth consulting the alarm instructions and seeing what current it draws. You'll need to set your multimeter to the highest DC Amps range. this is to stop the meter overloading when it's connected. On some models of multimeter you'll need to change which connection the red lead goes to. When set to read amps, under no circumstances connect the multimeter between the battery terminals, otherwise you could short out the battery, melt the leads and wreck the meter. 1. Disconnect the battery negative (earth) lead. 2. Set to multimeter to the highest DC Amps range. 3. Connect the multimeter between the battery negative terminal and the disconnected negaive (earth) lead. 4. Going down one DC Amps range at a time, reduce the range until the reading is sensible. Always start high to protect the meter from overloading. 5. The ideal leak rate should be below 1.2mA, but as mentioned above it may be very slightly higher because of any alarms/immobilisers, but not substantially so. If the leakage is substantially higher than 1.2mA, try pulling and refitting fuses one at a time and seeing which fuse make the biggest difference to the leakage value when removed. This'll give you a clue as to which circuits are drawing too much current. Real Time Charging System Monitoring If you're concerned about the state of your charging system and want to monitor it without the faff of getting a multimeter out every time, there's nothing to stop you fitting a small voltmeter. I have a Lascar EMV1200 fitted to the Big Red Bus - my VFR. Hope this little lot is of some use.

I'm no expert, but the UK boys have found better running by resetting the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). I'd explore that, in your position.

Mine looked like that, too (as has everything other one I've seen here). Yet my brand new replacement from Honda actually lost me a few tenths of a volt, so don't be surprised if it checks out.

Updated info on this topic was just posted on the Euro board - http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/showthread.php?t=76159