Baileyrock

Howdy! Your weight will require springs in the area of .95 kg front(min)and 1200 lb rear spring (min) rear. You don't mention what Gen VFR your riding, we can better suggest Mods if we have more info. Welcome to VFRD btw. BR Sorry about the slow response. My bad on the year, it's an '02. I didn't think to put the year in since it was the "Sixth Gen fourms" Is the 6th gen spring alone replaceable on the stock shock? I just got the bike and dont' want the wife to slit my throat by spending 800 dollars on a new shock quite yet. Thanks! No you are right it is a 6th gen thread, but many 5th gen guys have posted too and what works/fits a 5th gen doesn't always work on the 6th. :fing02: Yes you can change out the spring on the VFR shock, but it's a POS compared to most other Honda sport bike shocks and I wouldn't waste the time or money putting a 1200-1300 lb spring on a stock VFR shock. Options: The easiest mod I would suggest is to install a CBR 1100XX shock on it, it's not stiff enough for your weight but it's a bolt in mod and will quicken the steering a little because it's slightly longer. Stock VFR rear shock has a 15.3 kg spring, the XX has a 16.8 kg spring. It's only 10% stiffer, but that's better and would add some extra ground clearance too. The next step would be slapping a 1200 lb spring on a F4i shock with a 12mm (or bigger)top mount spacer and hope there's enough rebound adjustment to control the 1200 lb spring, if so your in like flint. :goofy: Either one of these shocks(F4i, CBR xx) can be had for $50 ON EBAY and the F4i shock has rebound & compression adjustment. Springs avg. $100 per end(front/rear). The 929 shock is a common mod for 5th gen, but there's a fitment issue on 6th gen that requires a mod to a bracket at the rear of the bike too. The next step is to have someone re-valve an F4i shock for the 1200-1300lb spring, JamieDaughtery is member here who does that. This is probably around $300 w/new spring. Used Ohlins or Penskes are another choice, I found a Ohlins on eBay from a CBR F2/F3 for $300 and installed a 19kg spring w/no valving change and it works Great, only had to make a spacer for the top mount. Lots of options out there which cost less than new but require some slight mods. BR

This is a great topic and I look forward to it's development so i am Pinning it. :fing02: Thanks and good luck. BR ps get some pics in here before I have to Ban you! :wink:

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes: I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring. BR I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded. I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference. Great, glad Elka did you right Jason. :fing02: I fought the same type attitude about thinking that a heavier spring would make my ride harsh! It does not, it's valving that effects harshness. Running the proper spring rate only make the bike work for your weight, valving is whats needed to smooth things out! BR

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :fing02: I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring. BR

Well my question then is, what happens if you lose 5 lbs, or ride without all the gear all the time? It seems that doesn't leave you much adjustment. I know I'm going to lose those last 10 lbs. real soon. :blink: Maybe Baily/Pete can chime in on this. I would think you wouldn't want to go below 1/4-1/3 of the preload range, just to retain some flexibility? If you get the proper spring rate right the first time, I don't think 10-20 rider lbs will Blow you out of the proper range vs running a spring several hundred pounds off or to soft on us heavier guys. :ph34r: You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :fing02:

Jamie, Where was the problem in the flawed spring rate calculator you were using before? I remember it coming up with extremely low numbers for the VFR rear spring. The Modified formula seems much closer to what we've been seeing on the higher end, but an 1100lb spring for a 110 lb rider seems extremely high IMO even for a 145lb rider. If you continued down the scale with that formula to the stock spring rate of 15.3kg(850lb), the formula would suggest the stock VFR was built for a One Pound Rider! :ph34r: Something seems amiss here! What are your thoughts on this? BR

LOOKS LIKE THEY'VE BEEN LOOKING AT OUR THREAD! :blink: Dan, That's great to hear that there's at least one shop that seems to be doing it right and seem to support what Pete & I and now Jason have discovered, congrats on finding them. Your bike should feel Great! :ph34r: BR

You da man Pete, You are the one who sent me a copy of Trevitt's book and we've shared a shitzload of info, data and results for a long time trying to figure just what was important to proper bike set-up and spring rate calculations and just how vital Free Sag is to it. :fing02: I also got a great deal on your spring inventory! Keep Fighting to fight to help educate VFRD members one shock at a time! :goofy: BR

Thanks, I'll look thru the thread and find your set-up info or you guys can just post it up in the "Transformed Wow" thread and I'll add it to the original post and keep adding info from any member who achieves the desired Free & Rider Sag number for all members to see. That way like you said members can see real world numbers and almost ideal spring rates for our VFR's by rider weight. :fing02: BR

Dan, Unless GP suspension happens to be using the one and maybe only accurate VFR spring rate calculator and comes up with at least a 1200lb rear spring rate, It will be wrong IMO and you won't be able to achieve the numbers you yourself posted for Free & Rider Sag. If they come up with something light like a 900lb spring and re-valve the Penske for it, the valving will be off by the time you get around to installing the correct and much heavier spring. :sleep:

I'm not really talking about fork spring rate calculators as forks is forks Where I see a consistent problem is with the VFR's rear spring rate calculators! I'm sure it's a simple problem in the dimensions someone has plugged into their calculators related to the rear rocker ration and all other parameters used, if you knew all the correct numbers you would think it would be pretty easy to build a accurate calculator. :sleep: I'm sure if we were all on CBR's just about every calculator would be dead nut and they sell, race and build 100 fold more CBR's than VFR's, especially here in the states. :ph34r:

That's the point, who needs a calculator when you have members here who have done it right by Trial & Error and are providing accurate real world numbers and not some flawed calculator(for the VFR numbers only). :sleep: As mentioned in other threads, I've seen spring rate numbers recommended to members here from just about every source out there World wide for a VFR (5th/6th gen owners) who weigh 190lbs that were from 800-1400 lbs. Who's right, there's only one correct rate and all the other calculators are flawed. Actually you could probably be within the desired numbers with spring rates that are 50 lbs either side of ideal, maybe slightly more. RaceTech has always been high on their fork spring calculator(IMO) and I'm not sure what happened to rear spring calculator as years ago they were Extremely High, now there Extremely Low for the VFR and both were wrong by real world numbers! :ph34r: BR

Dan, I have no idea who might have a good calculator for the VFR! I've yet to see any numbers supplied by any manufacture or suspension Pro that come close to the trial & error method Pete & I have been working on for years to achieve desired Sag numbers. I forget what Pete has number and spring wise, but he's tried many springs to finally achieve the numbers he desired. I weigh 190 lbs and have a 19 kg(1065 lb) spring on a Vtec, I get the following numbers measuring by myself: Free sag- 12mm Rider sag- 32mm These are real close for what I want, but I want to check it again check it again w/help to be more accurate. So IMO if you weight 190 plus you'll need at least a 19kg spring to get close, I'll be trying a 20 kg real soon and post my numbers. BTW I started w/a 850 lb spring on my Ohlins and had No free sag w/35mm rider sag. BR

Yeah, it's counter intuitive really, I think it's best explained in Trevitt's book, "Sportbike Suspension ..." If your spring is too soft you end up having to crank in a whole bunch of preload to achieve desired Rider Sag, this results in a Topped Out shock w/no Free sag. A firmer spring requires less pre-load to achieve desired Rider Sag leaving free movement. Something like that! :fing02:

Jason, I don't think it's unsafe at all, hell there's hundreds of Viffer owners running Zero Free sag because they've cranked it all out with pre-load trying to get decent rider sag numbers with too soft or stock springs. :fing02: I do think running zero free sag could be an issue in the right situation causing loss of traction or other negative problem. Like I said your set-up is probably better than 90% of VFR owners out there you are right in there, I just think it could be slightly better with the 1200 lb spring and you don't even have to buy one. I'm really only suggesting the change because you already have the spring BR

Jason, From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale). I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag. The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02: BR

Tossing this in from another thread. :fing02: So true Dan, this is the point Pete & I keep trying to get across to everyone! Most people think if you can get desired Rider Sag then the Spring is correct, but just as you've mentioned rider sag is meaningless for calculating correct spring rates w/o also having the desired Free sag numbers! The other fact is that just because some Tuner or even Ohlins or Penske says you need "....lb spring" does Not mean it's the correct one unless you get Both the desired numbers for Free & Rider Sag! Elka sent many of our members new shocks with the wrong spring rates on them and now if anyone ever bothered to check the numbers they have found them to be wrong and are needing new springs! Of course a New Aftermarket shock will feel better than a stock VFR shock, even with the wrong spring, but you are paying for the correct spring rate and Most are Not getting it! I've seen different Pro's suggest for our members VFR's rear spring rates from 800lb to 1400lb springs for the same 190lb rider! :blink: That's insane! There is only one correct rate for that rider on his VFR and every other spring rate recommendation is WRONG whether it's Ben Speis, Ohlins, Penske, Me or the best tuner in your country telling you so. The ONLY way to know if the spring rate is correct is on the bike and checking both Free & Rider Sag, there is no other way! I've said this in other threads, I think the problem is that most Pro's have a faulty spring rate calculator for the VFR model only and constantly come up with these bogus numbers. Almost always Too soft. :dry:

mine stayed stuck on the fork so I left it and reused it. It's all good. I've never had an issue reusing them.

Yeah that is the grounding block which another member discovered a few years back, it's located on the left inside of the frame rail 1/2 or 3/4 the way along the engine or something like that. A plastic POS with all the green ground wises in it and only a few out going wires to the grounding point on the frame. :fing02: I'm not sure what thread it's in, but someone covered it pretty well and it doesn't seem to be as common of a problem area. BR

Nope, but I was riding with no compression damping for a while. When I dialled in the rebound adjustment on the shock, I bcked off the compression damping to nothing, then rode on one of the nearby goat tracks at the same speed, same route each time, making one or two click adjustments on the rebound until it seemed to get worse, then went back to a previous setting. That is the best way to do it and learn it IMO! :ph34r: Currently the compression damping is at less than one-third from full soft. I did have it even softer, but found that when I was finishing turns the back tyre was spinning up on the exit, because it was compressing too readily as the torque loaded the rear spring, then extending again too fast. "then extending again too fast" that is from Not enough Rebound!

Yeah, can't do anything about a non-adjustable front fork, but on the rear w/aftermarket fully adjust shock it's better to Not have any Damping interfering with your sag check. :unsure: Avg. 3 measurements per end is a great way to go. BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again? That tells you what the spring alone feels like. It took me a while to realize I had my comp set too stiff for the longest time, when I finally backed it off a decent amount and let the spring work it felt much better. Remember the Springs hold the bike off the ground, the Damping controls spring osolation(bouncing) and weight transitions. BR

The last time I checked the numbers on my street 02 Vtec w/Ohlins shock and a 19kg(1065lb) spring I got: Free Sag: 12mm Rider Sag: 32mm This is pretty damn close, but I'm trying the 1200lb spring this time on this Penske that was suppose go on the Track Vtec. BR

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring. PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :angry: BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen? You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you? There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring. BR

I don't agree. When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world. You mention later that you have never checked Free sag and w/o Free sag the suspension just does Not work as it should. I can just about bet that w/your 900lb spring and 30-35 mm of rider sag you have ZERO free sag. OHLINS recommends 10-15 mm of FREE SAG along with 30-35mm rider sag on the rear. The point I'm trying to make about correct numbers suggested by these experts are only related to VFR numbers which I feel most of the calculators their using have an error in it for the VFR only. Is your expert an VFR expert or just using a faulty Calculator like most are using for the VFR and coming up with bogus numbers, I'm not saying these experts don't know what their doing, just do few VFR's and are using bad calculator formulas. I'm sure there all Spot on with GSXR's, R1's, CBR's etc. because they do a million of them and everyone Races them, not the 1% of VFR's they do. :angry: Also the problem with most people like us Joe riders is that we only set Rider sag and Not Free sag. Achieving proper spring rates for any bike/suspension combo can only be achieved by having not only the correct Rider Sag, but the correct Free sag too. Using these two numbers is the ONLY way to figure out if you have the correct spring rates!!! You can crank enough Pre-Load into almost any spring and get Rider Sag numbers close to desired, but for anyone of ant weight 160-170 plus on a VFR you will NOT have any Free Sag which means the springs too soft! Did your expert actually set the bike up for you or just provide a Shock with a spring on it? I'll send you a dollar if you have any measurable Free sag w/a 900 lb spring on your VFR.