JES_VFR

Actually, the increased need for electric current to run the electric water pump WILL add resistance to the rotor/stator. Think of an gas powered generator that you might used if your power goes out. If you plug in a big appliance, it puts a noticeable load on the engine. There's no free power. So lets say that electric water pump is a 1hp electric motor, then it will take 1hp (plus probably ~10% efficiency loss) extra power to spin the rotor to make the current for it. I think the advantage to these electric water pumps is the consistency. The mechanical pump in the engine gets really inefficient and sucks a lot of power away from the engine at higher RPM.

Yup that's the plain truth of it.

Add in that any pump has an efficiency range that is speed dependent and the mechanical pump suddenly doesn't work so well.

Its too slow and inefficient at idle, when you need good flow. And it's too fast at High rpm's causing more inefficiency due to cavitation.

Not to mention the impeller on the stock pump is about as cheap as anyone can make one.

A properly fitted electric cooling pump is a great thing.

It not a 'free Lunch' thing so much as 'healthy lunch' kind of thing.

'JES_VFR'

Here's what I got for temps - volts

120 - 1.605

130 - 1.482

140 - 1.337

150 - 1.208

160 - 1.015

170 - .862

180 - .775

190 - .693

200 - .643

210 - .580

These my vary a little unit to unit. This should get you real close and you can tweek a little by connecting a computer to the bike while it's running and making changes. A voltage goes down as the temp goes up. Keep in mind that the temp on the right side of the screen is not correct while adjusting the table, you have to clink 'OK" to get the temp to update on the computer.

Just for info, once you set this up you can use the temp enrichment feature. You can set multiple points. I actually set one (10%) at 215 to help cool things down a little in traffic if need be. Just remember to subtract your max lean percentage from the number you want because the Autotune will try and lean it back out. For example, I wanted a 5% enrichment at 215 and my max lean percent on my Autotune is currently 5%. Add the two together and you get the 10% I put in the enrichment table. I'm guessing I could go 10% (15% in the table) but my bike never really gets hot. I think the most I've ever seen is 222. If you lived in a real hot climate, you could go 5% at 215 and 10% at 220 or something.

Let me know if you have any problems.

Thanks for the table. I'll be dumping that in as soon as I get the PC V.

How did you make out on the vacuum switches?

I'm going to need one for switching the autotune on and off as well as one for possibly switching the output of this project on and off.

I might try to re-use the pair solenoid, driving by the switch to control the flow.

If you have found a use for the extra switches, can I get the source so that I can order several for myself.

I have a feeling I'll need several more of them in short order.

According to Bike Bandit, the 5th and 6th gen use the same temp sensor so I'm guessing it would work fine. Keep in mind the sensors my very slightly from unit to unit.

Then yeah I'd appreciate the sensor tables.

Particularly since on the last ride, I did not wait to let the bike warm up and running in 45 deg air it took for ever to get warm.

And even with my nose, I was pretty sure it smelled rich to me until I really got it warmed up after a fuel stop (also got the worst mileage of the 500 mile trip).

As many of you know, I recently totalled my beloved 2003 VFR, and replaced her with a clean 2002 ABS model. Now that I'm riding again, I'm a little jumpy, I almost feel nervous back in the saddle. Part of it could be the worn and cupping D208's making the bike feel twitchy in corners, but it's probably mostly me. I've only done about 350 miles on the new bike, but I had thought that would be enough to get back into the swing of things. Anyone ever experience anything similar or have any advice?

Not sure how much I can help you other than tell you to get right back to riding.

When I went down in august of 2008, I did not have the luxury of taking my time. My bike was my way of getting to work everyday. So I was back on a bike in about a week (with my still cracked ribs).

And it was not a perfect machine either, It was my three week old RC51. I bought it as a theft recovery and it had lots of little problems. The big ones were a slipping clutch, a busted throttle tube and an Iron hard shinko rear tire (in the wrong size of course).

Maybe having to focus on making it all work as best I could, while I got parts in was how I got past the worries and fears.

Will, I thought I had two sources but the one on Ebay for $50 (with shipping) was a 1 to 6 inch hg where the model I have 6 to 24 inch hg. The other source was $20 a piece (plus shipping), however when I went to order one (for brake light experiment) I found they had a 5 piece min. Went ahead and ordered 5 thinking I would either use them or sell them on Ebay. I should get them next week. Would you like 1 or more of them? By the way, they have a normally open and normally closed contact rated @ 15 amps, 120v.

yeah I'd be interested in getting one, maybe two, but at least one. The first thought is duplicate your setup with one my 5th gen to shut off the autotune function on deceleration.

The second I'll use if the Pair Solenoid turns out to not run at lower engine temps as I need a way to shut off vapor flow from device on deceleration.

I hooked a led to the PAIR solenoid and the only time I could get it to light was closed throttle. However, I have since read that it is also on when the temp is below 160. I have not tried this but have read several accounts in a couple different places. The day I tested, I had done a couple our things on the bike and I believe when I left, it was over 160, but I'm not positive. I didn't think the engine temp would play into it. I removed my so don't feel the need to revisit this but if anybody finds out anything different, please pass it along. If this is true, the only advantage to disconnecting might be smoother off idle. Other than that, it's a none factor.

I've had block off plates on my VFR since before Toro was done with the prototyping of the toro-charger. I just capped the ports of the solenoid and the airbox and left it plugged in. But if it really only opens on deceleration, then I'd rather use it to control the vapor from a project device. If not I can always find a spot for another vacuum switch, a relay and another small ported solenoid.

The temp is just a 0-5v sensor. The PVC has 2 to 10 cells temp cells, you choose. The more cells, the more accurate. Lets say you choose 4, you than give them a temps, say 150,170,190,and 210. You then use a volt meter, start the bike and measure the temp sensor to ground. As you get to those temps (150,170,190,210), record the voltage. Next, enter the voltage reading in the cells below the corresponding temp and your done. The PCV will use this info to figure all the temps in between. That's why the more you use, the more accurate. Or if you want, I can email you mine. I'm pretty OCD and did all ten, twice, just to make sure.

Will your tables work with a set of 5th gen maps?

If not I'll just do it myself, it doesn't sound impossible.

I'm really hoping I can get some positive results with my project before I have to install the PC-V, autotune, the vacuum switch and more tuning stuff.

But we will see shortly.

Well, I came up with a very easy fix. The PC5 has connections to switch the Autotune on and off. I happen to have a adjustable vacuum switch left over from another project that I decided to wire to that on / off switch connection. I disconnected the vacuum solenoid and connected that vacuum line to my hand vacuum pump to use it's gauge, since that's the one I'm going to use to set the switch. I put the pump in the window pocket of my tank bag and went for a ride. The port was very stable, about 7-11 inches at cruise. I used that info to set the vacuum switch to trip at 14 inches and greater, which are the readings under deceleration. This turns the Autotune off while I'm decelerating. The switch resets at 12 inches which gives a real nice buffer area so that you don't get in a constant on/off, on/off. Problem solved, the Autotune on / off is seamless and all is now perfect.

Hey can you give us the source for the vacuum switch? I may need this for more than just a way to switch off the Auto-tune on a project I'm working on.

Also can you confirm for me, if the pair solenoid is activated or deactivated on deceleration? For some reason I thought it was deactivated, but someone else here said its activated on decel.

Lastly, you said the temperature sensor has to be calibrated, which is the first I've heard about this. Is it a difficult process, can you describe the procedure?

At this point I think the PC5 + autotune and a vacuum switch is going to about half of the hardware costs on this project.

At least I'm hoping so.

hoping to find some simple answers to some complex questions.

I would contact somebody like JE pistons and see if they have any big bore pistons in their database.

They have lot's of custom pistons that are not listed in online or paper catalogs.

The 870cc slugs for the vfr800 are one example.

Or they might even be able to tell you if another piston from a different application will fit (like say a cbr900 oversize piston).

You just have to some phone work and ask questions.

I'm not sure why Honda decided to purge the canister when they do, but I hooked a really bright LED to the connection for the solenoid and it is what it is. My experience with cars, is they purge under high vacuum, which makes more sense to me since the mixture is less critical. Besides nothing pulls air (purges) better than high vacuum. Maybe EPA thought that hydrocarbons introduced in the engine at high vacuum, won't get burned good enough. After all, they're making manufactures shut the fuel off at zero throttle (above highest possible idle of course).

The problem has nothing to do with the bike ECM. It's operating correctly. When your decelerating it goes lean to lower emissions and save gas. The bike can go lean when it's not under load, nothing will be harmed, it's a win, win. The problem is the Power Commander only looks up a mixture correction map based on throttle position and engine RPM. It has no way of knowing engine load, especially when you're not doing gear-by-gear mapping. Image, 1st gear down a steep hill, 10% throttle, 4k rpm. Well, that would be deceleration to the bikes ECM, lean mixture (>15 to 1). Now, level ground, 6th gear, 10% throttle 4K, ECM see engine under load, much richer mixture (around 13.5 to 1). Well the Power Commander only see the RPM and throttle position. To the Power Commander, there is no difference and the Autotune it will try and fix the lean mixture to match the table. Now this an extreme example, just to illustrate my point. Having gear-by-gear Power Commander maps will help a lot.

The Power Commander only knows where the throttle is at, not which direction its traveling or how fast, as it pertains to mapping. It does look at it for their 'accelerator pump' feature, which works well. I currently have that feature turned off because I'm trying to pin down a really good base map.

One of the most important differences between autos and bikes, is that bikes don't have airflow meters. This is very important. If you do a stuff to make the bike breathe better, it has no way of knowing. You'll make an already lean mixture, leaner. If you make a car breathe better, the airflow meter will see the increased airflow and tell the ECM to toss a little more fuel in, hence the power gain. All of this is with reason of course.

Okay I get it. The issue is more with the PC V's programming or the Autotunes programming.

Are you planning on going to Gear by Gear mapping as it still sounds like it would help with this issue.

Also is there a load offset map that would allow you to offset the rpm ranges across the cells when you us gear by gear maps? Then the 6th gear maps could have more resolution at the lower load ranges (say every 5% instead of 10%, until you pass 30%).

Still Gear by gear would be the best way to handle this, since as you pointed out low load conditions vary the most as you go up and down through the gears.

I know that bikes don't have Air flow meters, but not all car systems do either. A lot of race systems are 'speed density' and work from "known" airflow calculations. I used them on turbo motors as high boost could exceed the metering capabilities of a small mass air and a large one would not have enough sensitivity at low flow.

But I thought the point of this whole exercise was to give the VFR the Ultimate alternate front end.

I thought the challenge was to build up something special around a mighty VFR motor, not just slap something on an I2/3/4/5/6 whatever motor.

I know a custom bike builder in the area, that told me the following.

"Vtwins are easy to make choppers out of their a dime a dozen, Inline fours are next since once you do one the next one is the same, but the most challenging bike to customize is a V4. Do one of them right and you have something really special"

I personally feel that he is more than right.

That is an important and interesting bit of info.

Kudos on the solution to the issue, but it makes me wonder about a couple of things.

Why isn't the canister purged at high vacuum levels??

I wonder, does the ecm not see zero load when you blip the throttle to match revs??

I though this new ecm strategy used calculated load based on TPS, rpm, gear and Delta Rpm direction..

If so I would try setting the adjustments in the table at zero loads to very lean all the away along the row or column.

Then it would quickly want to trim back and not get the autotune module confused.

Also is there any "throttle position latency" factor, if so cut it down until it starts to be touchy at steady cruise. Like the old dashpot dampers on carbureted engines there is a function built into the EFI to prevent it from shutting off to quickly or too long to prevent stalling. The PCV may or may not be able to alter that. If it can I'd say have at it.

One last question, is there anyway to adjust the O2 sensors delay for less hysteresis in the autotune module?

I have some experience with some of these factors on automotive systems and I'm sure that they exist in MC tuning.

6th Gen chart got Pinned (see top of page in Modifications Forum). I did it first.

BR ask me to do the computations for a 5th Gen also. He is suppose to pin this post. Don't know why he hasn't yet.

Cool, that was the bit I was missing.

Thanks Pete

Okay but you have an 6th gen???

Am I missing something?

Let's see, $5K for this and another $5K for suspension upgrades, or a 7th Gen VFR1200? Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Just get both.

Oh yeah, like everyone else has said,

Your okay (or soon will be), that is what matters.

The bike can be rebuilt or replaced, but you cannot.

Get well, then get back to fixing it up.

But do the brake hoses right this time okay???

Hey, just a question.

Has anyone crash tested these sliders on a 5th gen yet??

That has been what has been stopping me from getting sliders for my 01.

Most of the ones that I saw before, caused more damaged to the bike than just rashing the plastics.

Sorry, I'd just like to see some post crash pictures before I'd buy these.

Whens the RC51 kit coming? :wheel: I'll drop it off whenever you want for R&D! :fing02:

I have been getting more requests for the RC now that the site has launched. It's certainly a possibility, but I do have other bikes lined up to receive kits first. If there's enough demand I'll make a kit for any bike, but without feedback it's very hard to gauge real interest.

Toro, do you recommend cat-less headers / aftermarket exhuast? Or would this work fine with the stock gear?

It should work fine with the stock exhaust, but just realize that with the supercharger, the more exhaust flow the better, which is why I'm kicking around the idea of making a full system with larger diameter tubing. There's certainly power to be gained by opening up the exhaust.

As it stands, catless '98-'99 headers are the best flowing pipes found on any VFR. I'll find out how much power is lost from the cat once I bolt a kit onto a '00-'01.

Again, a slip-on is not needed, but will certainly bump up the power output -- if you're able to gain an extra 5hp or so on a naturally aspirated motor, you can imagine what it will do with the supercharger. This is also why I don't quote actual hp increases, as bikes and dynos vary too much from one another to accurately nail down a number. However, a percentage increase I can quote, as boost is boost, and affects your engine's efficiency (changing the exhaust will only help to increase that efficiency).

Okay so which one of my bikes do you want me to drop off first???

Guinea pig bikes get an added discount don't they Dan??

All right, That looks great.

Now I just have to sell a bunch of stuff, each cans of tuna for a few months and decide which kidney I really don't need.

Seriously, I'm there Dan and you know it. I was hooked just from the day I was out chasing after you.

I just have to pull the $ together.

What is a kidney worth again?

Well the 2000 and 1997's use the same fan blade part #'s (67875-001)....Hmmm........? I wonder if it the VTR fan blade 19020-MBB-003 will help my Gen 4 / 97.......................?

Gen 4 Radiator

Gen 5 Radiator

I'm thinking no cause the fan on my 97 faces forward compared to the side on 2000. Anyone have two cents to offer on this?

The other part of that Joe is that on your 94 the correct all the time flow of air is in from the front, through the rad and out through the fan.

having your fan run in a sucker configuration there is in the same flow as if it was au natureal.

on the later versions using a sucker blade is counter to the natural flow and causes issues.

Just ordered my new fan blade Hope it works well. I don't usually have a problem, but don't like the potential. I realized reading this thread that the reason they used a "puller" fan as opposed to the RC51/superhawk/whatever pusher is probably "rider comfort" of not having the fan blowing out hot air thru the radiator up at you or on your leg. The race bikes won't have the same level of expected comfort. I know we see that as a fault, but I guarantee it was intentional. I rode a Sportster. If HD doesn't give a crap about rider comfort (sitting on a furnace) I can live with the fan actually cooling the water.

Actually the RC51 uses the same puller style fan as the VFR. the superhawk is the only one that got a proper pusher fan.

the fan mod double part I is on the list of stuff to try with my New to me RC51 sp2

But I'm still looking for a spare inner fairing panel for an 98-2001 VFR?

More along the lines of why does the VFR get so hot so quickly.

I was thinking about the plastic front panel of the lower fairing the other day.

I have an idea that I think will improve the cooling.

I need to get my hands on the black lower fairing inner panels to modify.

Does anyone here have one that they can part with?

I can only hope that the individuals that committed to buying a Torocharger will follow through. There obviously has been an enormous amount of time and effort in fine tuning this "product". Don't let the man down.

Hey I've ridden with Dan, behind the prototype. You can bet that he will have my money as soon as I can scrape enough of it together.

People have committed? Without even knowing a price? This isn't a $100 farkle, we're in the price range of buying a whole new bike...I'm really interested but honestly, buying a $5K add-on to a 10 year old bike doesn't make much $ense to me. A 6th gen kit would seem a lot more marketable in the long run.

Ooooo, Yeah let's all run out and buy a bike that we don't like don't want and already feel is much less than our 8-10 year old bikes.

Then lets all spend even more of our hard earned cash on a performance product that will make it faster but still won't address the big three problems.

If I could not have the supercharger for my 01, it would not be the end of the world. To be sure there are other bikes in the world that tempt me all the time, but not a 6th gen.

No 6th gen will ever disgrace my garage.

Oh and before the inferno starts, I'm not against those of you that have 6th gens. I just can't stand the bike.

Sorry.

Dan, When? is still the big burning question.

So, just out of curiosity, what is the next step? Bigger radiators? thermo switch that turns the fan on sooner? Addition of a second fan on the right radiator? or a manual fan on/off switch?

Enquiring minds want to know....

PS my new fan is on order, should arrive late this week.

Lets see the next step could involve anyone (or all of the following).

1 a second pusher fan moving air out the right side rad.

2 a set of ducts that will keep the heat from the headers and the engine block from 'pre-heating' the cooling air that get flows through the rads.

3 more efficient non honda fan blade.

4 a special ambient temperature sensitive black box to alter the engagement temp of the left fan.

5 custom radiators.

ps do not forget the locktite in the gluestick form for the nut.

I've been corresponding with Jes on this issue on the STN forum and wanted to share my findings with you regarding this fan mod for the 6th gen model VFR's

<.....>

After switching back to my bike I did some further testing up and down the mountain. I discovered that in a situation when the bike is under a load the fan is unable to get the temp down low enough to turn off. However,the fan is able to maintain the temp in the 215 225 range (depending on the load) as opposed to getting into the 230's such as my friends' 07 and higher (240s) as seen previously on my bike.

At idle with the temps above 90 degrees the fan can hold the temp around 215 - 218 but it was unable to get the temp down low enough to shut off. However, once under way under normal riding conditions the temps dropped 210 or so and the fan remained off.

On my way home I saw a high of 106 on the interstate and decided to push the bike hard by running 90+. At those speeds the temps rose to 223 and the fan engaged. Once again the fan could not cool sufficiently to turn off but It did maintain the temps at a range of 218-221 consistently. This is where I had my most severe problem with the temps creeping into the 240 range. Also, I observed that when getting within 100 feet of another vehicle that the temp rose slightly but once back into the air stream it would fall back into the same levels.

Finally, In traffic at speeds up to 50mph with temps in the mid 90's the VFR ran consistently in the 209-213 range with the fan OFF. At a traffic light or in slow heavy traffic the temp would quickly spike to 222 and the fan would kick in slowly reducing the temp to 218 or so. But once moving at around 20 mph the temp dropped steadily down to 210 and the fan could disengage. In the past the fan would not have had enough time before the light changed to cool down below it's cutoff point. Once under way it was stuck on and the temps hovered around 220's in traffic. The only way it would shut off is if I were to pull over and wait for a few minutes but that was useless because the temp would climb back to 222 at the next stop anyway. Hmm... Let's see, Fan off bike runs cooler, Fan on Bike runs hotter.... Makes sense to me Headscratch....

I ran the VFR under some of the most demanding conditions that most people will likely see and it performed much better than it ever has. The highest temp it ever got to was 225, hot but tolerable. I am now comfortable taking the bike out on my upcoming 3800 mile journey through the 4 corners states. I can also go on record to say that this mod seems to work better than the stock setup for the 6th gen model VFR.

Jes,

Thanks once again for your detective work figuring out that a VTR fan blade is compatible with the VFR fans.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that after the fan had been running for about 5 minutes while the bike sat on the driveway the bike (especially the clutch) was pretty hot to the touch as hot air works it's way up between the side fairing and the gas tank. However it was no big deal as it cooled off quickly once the bike was in motion.

This might be one of the reasons that Honda designed the fan to pull inward.

You, and everyone else are welcome.

As far as the fan not being able to cool below a certain point under load and/or ambient conditions, I have seen that as well (and reported it). However these were conditions that prior to my changing the blade would have had the bike up in the 240 range and me searching for a way out.

I have been looking at more ways to cool the VFR and have a few ideas, but as Vern points out, the heat has to go somewhere and unfortunately its going to have to pass close to you guys the riders. And by that I mean either out the left side and past your leg or up along the left side near your clutch hand, or out the back under the naughty bits.

That is just the facts when it comes to riding in the summer heat, the engine heat has to go somewhere?

So until I get the next step sorted out, try and stay cool

Hello all; I am a new guy to the forum, Yes my 2000 VFR has a tendency to run toasty. I read about the fan blade modification in another forum and quickly called my dealer and ordered one.Just picked it up yesterday and havent had a chance to install it. But I have been noodling about the modification for a week or two and in every scenario that comes to mind I believe the blade that pulls air out of the engine compartment and thru the radiator is a superior design than the sucker blade. I believe one of the biggest advantages of the puller blade would be in slow traffic with the fan motor on. In this situation the air flow and fan are working against each other. Anyway most of this has already been said in the previous replies,but guess I am just trying to get my feet wet. eddie

Yeah that's pretty much the problem right there.

Install the new blade and be happy.