JES_VFR

Okay, okay, okay JES.... how about a truce? If you and your loyal supporters leave behind the leftist, apocolyptic, conspiracy-piracy-theory-MIB-Matrix spoutings out of this TECHNICAL DISCUSSION about the merits or lack thereof of HHO, I'll butt-out with my criticism and chain-yanking from the sidelines. It is because of my pro-capitalist, anti-global warming, anti-New World Order, anti-Michael Moore, anti-Al Gore stance that I simply can't let unfounded opinions about the future of oil go unchallenged on this forum. When myths go unchallenged for too long, they begin to eclipse the truth. Thus I had to go on the offensive to put some records straight or at least question the liberal politics that have invaded your "Cooking With Hydrogen" thread.

So.....why don't we ALL leave politics out of this, as it serves no purpose. We can agree to disagree about the future of the planet and where HHO fits into it. Hell, I'll even stop picking on HHO as being junk science and sit back to see your eventual results! Let us allow the technical chips to fall where they may. Sound reasonable?

As for the future of electrical power generation for the Rest Of All Time Of Earth....learn what you can about Traveling Wave Reactors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor Lots and lots of science involved there!

For the record, I don't have any control over the people that post here. The only person I control is myself. I only wanted to clarify my point that, I feel we still depend too much on oil for our energy. I wasn't going anywhere near the politics of oil, not at the local level, state, federal or global levels.

I wholeheartedly want to keep this thread as technical as possible. For the record, my one exterior electronic thermometer records the highs and lows for the last 24 hours. At 0830 this morning, it had recorded an overnight low of 15 F, after only a high of 36F.

That prompted me to go out to the garage and check the fluid in the bubbler/conditioner. It was still liquid, which was good since it had been a while since I had last filled it with a 50/50 windshield washer and distilled water mix, I don't know if the bubbling action vaporizes any of the anti-freeze elements of the fluid or not.

If it had frozen, I would have had to thaw it out. Fortunately it was okay, so the electrolyte should be okay as well. If the roads seem okay tomorrow, I may attempt a ride to King of Prussia.

I doubt the new R&R will have any trouble staying cool with all that metal to try and heat up.

As for the chemistry and the physics of the process, I have the help of a guy with both Batchelor's and Master's degrees in Mechanical engineering specifically Internal combustion. He's published some works on Hydrogen's effects on combustion. Now that was straight hydrogen not Hydroxy, He's doing more research into separated gas electrolysis and Hydrogen Ionization effects.

He tells me what we need the system to do, Dustin and I design to match his equations and then I get to make it a mass production ready design.

What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery.

That is absolute bullshit statement and you should be ashamed of yourself. THAT is why I resurrected this thread....to expose this crazy political nonsense that blindly supports "capitalist oil conspiracy theory"....yet attacks anyone who points out the decades of scientific work that has totally debunked the Brown's Gas Conspiracy is infuriating and baffling.

Slavery? Oil addiction? Those are big words and have no place here, especially after I [me, Trace] got pounded for bringing this nutbag topic back for inspection by the membership and wondering about your (lack of) progress. I asked for an update, and we got more political spin instead of results. How DARE you shill for your own Pepsi project, asking your fellow VFRD members to vote for you regardless of the merits of your project. Ahhhh...I see. If MONEY goes toward your cause it's okay. If it goes to Exxon....it's evil.

Slave oil? No. HHO snake oil? Yes.

Welcome to the Matrix, but I'll stick to the Blue Pill, thanks.

:lurk:

Whoa, just a minute, I did not say that Exxon was evil. What I said was that this world is addicted to gasoline and diesel.

And it is, I mean how many LPG fueled IC engines, particularly in vehicles and equipment do you own?

How many do you see?

How many fueled are with CNG, Methane, Methanol or LNG?

For most people everything from their vehicles on down to their string trimmers, are powered with gasoline or diesel.

We as a world are addicted to Gasoline and Diesel.

I'm not talking about "Big Oil's Evil agenda", I wasn't discussing the state of politics. I have no comment on the supposed MIB's. No politics where involved in that comment Trace.

My only point is that the human race is addicted to petroleum as an energy source and any addiction makes the user a slave to the source of the addiction.

The oil that is in the earth is not going to last forever, nor can the Natural gas, or even the coal, if we continue to power the transportation all over the world with it.

It doesn't matter what I think of the government or the oil companies in this case, I'm talking about the human race and our major fuel source is going to run out.

We need to find another source of power, and since I have yet to see a Mr. Fusion reactor that can fit in a vehicle to power it, I'm trying to develop another alternative.

I delivered an update that detailed the creeping rate of progress that I have had. I'll be the first to admit that I'm particularly frustrated with the lack of good data,

Part of that was the installation issues, part the lack of funds hindering every step of the way, part of it was me being inconsistent with my riding.

But it was a full update none the less.

I can boil it all down and say that at this point, If I did no further tuning, I've achieved about a 20% increase in mileage.

However, I'm convinced that this is not the most optimized tune, nor is the cell production maxed out either.

I'm certain I can make more gas and go leaner, probably even a bit past stoichiometric as "interpreted" by the wideband o2 sensor in the OEM exhaust bung.

It was 19F outside this morning, so its not like its great weather for mileage tests either.

General condition and maintenance of the VFR adds another issue as the exhaust header is just about gone and even if I get the Delkevic header, I'll have to get a new bung welded in.

I know that the update was not full of great data, but I did want to let you all know were the testing was.

The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline.

That will make your job harder, you need to compare optimized to optimized. Fortunately the PCV can switch between two maps.

Not on the fly with the AutoModule plugged in, it cannot. The terminals on the side of the case to switch with and the memory that you would use to store the second map are used by the autotune module. So, first I have ride the bike enough with a set of trims in the autotune to develop a good map, which can take a bunch of miles. Then, save that set of trims off on a laptop and start over again with a set of trims for running with HHO. Once those too sets of maps are made, I'd have ride a loop with one map, then ride the same loop with the second map, hoping that all the external conditions are the same.

As soon as I get some funds, I'll make a trek to a dyno and try to get a set of trims put together for each.

On what trace said (both versions :biggrin: )

John, when I search for some scientific data that backs up all the claims I only find websites that say:

Hydrogen Injection -The technology of using hydrogen as a combustion enhancement in internal combustion engines has been researched and proven for many years. The benefits are factual and well documented.

Do you have any links that point to some scientific studies that contain factual data? The use of hydroxy boosters has been studied since WW1 but most of the researches come up with youtube vids

to show how well their system works. Haha, holding a white pice of paper close to the exhaust pipe and claiming (i'll translate here) it spits out zero soot, zero CO, zero HC and 30% fuel saving and CO2 reduction! Instead of backing up claims by mentionig mpg and holding white pieces of paper near the exhaust pipe, why not put the engine on a dynometer or sticking an exhaust gas analiser in the can?

What is different about your setup compared to the kits already available on the market that justifies spending $250.000 in R&D?

Well I have not been able to test my emissions on my bike yet, That is another reason to get to dyno with a gas analyzer.

But, I do have a couple of documents from independent testers on cars running gas and diesel. They have mileage and emissions data, particularly since it is easier to get support for an emissions reducing device, than you can an alternative fuel system.

the latest one I have came to me from a peer in the hho industry, as proof of how good his new design is. I don't have spot to post this word document, but the data is not mine so I have no bias for it, and the testing was done by and independent group instead of the manufacturer. They did use a portable exhaust tester, so they have readings while driving around as well as the consumption figures.

If someone has space to host it, I'll send you this document, plus a couple older ones and then we can link to these.

Now, you asked what makes this project different from the already existing Boosters out there, These boosters (even the cell on my bike) are only able to improve the combustion of gasoline and diesel. They don't produce enough gas, to run the engines on their own, So, they are not able to eliminate the need for petroleum them altogether.

That is the next step, removing the gasoline and diesel fuels all together AND that is where this project comes in. Its much more than just a Hydroxy booster.

The basic design is three parts.

1. A EV Conversion with on board electric generation (much like a diesel/electric locomotive). Only we won't have batteries and all their issues (weight, charging, life-cycle, disposal, fire, etc). Range will be far greater than an EV today, and even better than most petroleum powered vehicles.

2. The GenSet will have an very efficient rotary generator head driven by an efficient constant speed IC running on a mixture of HHO and ethanol, Thus removing use of gasoline or diesel as an energy source.

3. A low energy use, ethanol production station will be finalized that will break down Cellulose and Lignin into sugars for fermentation into ethanol. As a part of this process a "no-heat" distillation methodology will remove the water from the fuel to achieve the proof required for fuel grade ethanol. No food stocks will be effected by this system. In fact, only the garbage stream to the landfills will be affected. It will be scalable, so that home stations are planned as well as larger units for fleets and consumer roadside stations.

So its a complete package, not just a booster kit.

JES,

Thanks for the update, and appreciate your willingness to step back into this controversial subject.

Just an FYI, my 2000 gets a consistent and carefully calculated 44 mpg with a 45 tooth sprocket. By "carefully calculated", I mean that my speedo is exactly correct using a speedohealer, and that my odo is exactly 11 percent low as a result of that correction. Thus, I crank 11% into my odo miles when gassing up. Plus, I use traveling mate's mileage at gas stops as a comparision/validation of miles traveled. Anyway, it always comes out to 44 mpg over the last 5 years during fairly hard highway running.

And my gas-pig RC51 gets 31 mpg doing the very same runs from Florida to Franklin NC and back! :pissed:

Well maybe I should get you up here to be my pacer as I freely admit that I was hammering along on when on the slab on both these trips.

I pack heavily for these rides and really need to make sure I have time to thin out the luggage.

past rides with similar loads have netted 37-39 mpg averages, So the 42-46 mpg numbers I got on the wdgah ride with an flaky R&R are better than normal.

I still have tuning to do, so I expect to get better, but I also know I have to back off as well.

That's why I say I need a pacer to run with.

Someone to keep me from just saying the hell with it this curve is calling for 95mph and going for it.

Before you tear down your current setup, you've got an opportunity to collect more data and prepare for gen 2. If you can get your current setup stable, you'll learn a lot more and save effort in the long run. It's OK for now if you can't run over rough roads (maybe tough to find in New Jersey, eh?).

- You've already seen the level of doubt so you'll have to have bombproof data to back you up. If you're just doing it for yourself, then you should be your own worst critic.

- Get a baseline on fuel consumption post PCV install, pre Brown's gas. Make sure your bike is in excellent working order.

- This science stuff is tough work, you've got to make just as many runs on the unmodified setup as you're making with the generator going. Hit the pike and figure out a circuit, you need to show that you can achieve consistent results on the unmodified bike.

- It would be good to do some A/B comparisons. Can you easily switch the generator on/off without affecting the bike's operation? You need to show repeatability - so going back and forth several times under identical conditions is important.

Well, I took to calling this configuration "install 2.2" as the second install was close but there had not been time to do it quite right.

As for gathering data, I'll be doing that until I have some thing much better to install. With the shock preload handled and the current tray shape, I can handle any road that the stock bike could.

I get blasted daily by doubters, hecklers and disrupters on the one hydrogen fuel forum, so the doubt is constant criticism is nothing new.

As for getting a baseline with the PCV, and then data with the PCV plus the gas running, I'm working on it. The gas does alter the trim changes the Autotune wants to make compared to just burning gasoline. Its going to be a struggle to generate apples to apples datasets, but I'm working on it

Also I don't want to be on to regular a route as that might attract the Staties (I know I have heavy hand).

I can switch the generator on/off easily by just pulling a fuse but idle goes up about 300 rpm when the generator is running and throttle response is sharper everywhere.

So again apples to apples comparison is a bit of a challenge.

Thanks for the update, John.

I will repeat one of a previous posters comments, and say that you doing a project such as this, can not possibly lose,

Even a negative result, will be a win for you.

It appears that all the problems you are having are not a product of the technology you are trying, but rather a product of your method, which is mostly governed by your small research budget.

Keep up the great work.

looking forward to your next installment

Tom

That is exactly the situation.

If the funding had become available sooner, than several projects would be further along.

But so far a lot of my materials have been paid for by me.

So we are creeping forward at a snails pace,

That is why I really need everyone to help me by voting in this round of the Pepsi Refresh Everything Challenge

The vote doesn't cost you anything,

You can vote for the project everyday.

What do you have to lose?? a couple of minutes a day on line.

What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery.

Fine. When we get to the 80+ mpg VFR we WON'T bother you.

OKAY!!! Last May this post came out about hydroxy or HHO or whatever. Much interest was generated, the tree huggers and Big Oil Conspiracy Theorists proclaimed JES_VFR a saint and visionary. Most other members adopted a wait-and-see attitude hoping for the best, and several others (including Mad Scientist and myself) immediately waved the BULLSHIT flag.

My position was that you can't get something for nothing, no matter how many black helicopters with Exxon emblems you think might be following you; or no matter how many pseudo-science bullshit websites you subscribe to. The assorted wackos out there might not like pure science, but just because your politics make you think that there is a conspiracy doesn't necessarily mean there is one. [And I don't exactly mean your politics, JES, I'm using the general "you" and "your", here].

You (actually it was mostly your followers) resorted to name-calling when the logical and scientifically-educated members questioned your HHO investigations. I KNOW that you're a good guy, a good member here and that you mean well, but I can't let pseudo-science and left-wing theory run amok without a challenge.

What say you now? How about that 80 MPG that you referred to? Frankly, I'd love for you to tell us it's working and making lots of power and giving big mileage improvements, so I can eat a bunch of humble pie.

I think that regardless of our expectations of the outcome, we can all agree that everyone wants Jes to carry this experiment through to its conclusion.

Thank you for trying and for letting us know about your efforts.

Yes, exactly right. I don't think anyone said he should stop, but six months have passed and there was a lot of interest and discussion by both supporters and naysayers, along with an ongoing heated argument that ventured into politics and big business and conspiracy theories. So, what I'm thinkin' is that after tossing this experiment smack-dab into the middle of VFRD-land, it's about time "for letting us know about your efforts".

Isn't that fair? Just sayin'....

Okay well its fair to say I had an epic fail on keeping everyone informed.

So let me put this forward as an update. Please Bear with me it's a bit of a saga.

back in May I stuffed a HHO (also known as Hydroxy gas) generator cell under the passenger seat of my VFR. The reservoir tank for the electrolyte was mounted under the rear of fender. A circulating pump was required to as the cell was laid flat, and it was installed under the right side of the rear bodywork. There are pictures of that install up at the top of this thread.

I rode it this way for about a month and a half (Pretty much every day). Now the bike had absolutely no changes to the factory EFI tuning, so there were no changes to the mileage. At the time I could not afford a PCV and Autotune module so I was doing little more than vetting the installation.

I did have some issues with the keeping the cell functioning .

The first problem was that if I allowed the electrolyte level to drop enough, when it shut down the cell would empty. The issue here was getting it to refill evenly without having to pinch off return lines, or over filling the tank on every start up.

The second issue was that the system would suck fluid from the bubbler back into the tank after shut off. This also created a lot of extra maintenance as the bubbler was mounted in from the left radiator, behind the lower fairing.

So I made the decision to do three things.

1. relocate the cell to a position below the tank and pump, there by removing the priming issue. The spot that was chosen was right behind the battery box, underneath the rider seat. The auxiliary fuse block, relays would be moved under the passenger seat along with an inbound PCV and AutoTune Module. The PCM would move to the left side of the bodywork behind the Rectifier/Regulator.

2. Enlarge the main tank to roughly doubling the volume of electrolyte on board. That would reduce fill ups and help maintain stability in the cell.

3. I'd add a check valve between the main tank and the bubbler to stop if from sucking fluid in the bubbler back.

To facilitate these changes, I'd cut out the bottom of the underseat plastic 'tray' from the battery box back to the mounting bushings for the taillights. So a round of selling stuff I call collectables (and my wife calls junk) on ebay netted the funds to buy the materials and the PCV. A call to Dustin, got me a check valve mailed out.

Remember I'm basically unemployed so this it all done on a shoe string.

Figuring that I would have plenty of time to get it done in time for the 'RIP' ride that the VFR Mailing list was having the second weekend in July.

I decided to go. Then my buddy bumped me out of his shop (as he actually had a paying customer) and needed the workspace that I had been 'borrowing'.

So I had to talk the wife into getting me an early birthday gift, and a bike work table finally came to live in my garage.

And another 'friend' suddenly became to lazy to 'rent' me his sheet metal brake.

The result of all this was I start the actual installation about ten days later than I had planned. Bending the sheet aluminum on my table saw with hammers and wood blocks.

On Wednesday the 7th the VFR looked like this

So, I buckled down, drafted my son Alex (he's a moose at 16) and hammered on getting the bike together.

Still the heat was high and the time was ticking, so about 2 am on Friday, I flopped on the bed, knowing I still didn't have a real tune in the PCV and that I was probably over packed by a factor of three.

In true test pilot fashion I slept like the dead, no nightmares, or even dreams that I could remember.

0600 came and I was on me feet gearing up to leave.

After putting the luggage on the bike, I eyeballed the sack in the reflection in the black paint of my neighbors SUV and dialed the preload on the hyperpro just about to the stop.

Damn, I knew I was way over-packed and overloaded, so I made Alex reach under and check for clearance.

His double pork chop hand fit between the rear tire and the front sheet of the tray with room to spare so, it all seemed good.

Since I had so many fluids on board for both me and the bike, I was guessing that I'd be okay as the weight would just drop all day.

Like a maxed out attack aircraft I rumbled over the driveway apron and off to meet Steve and another John.

We gathered and headed up state on our trek to the catskills.

Going through Trenton, I felt rear suspension hit hard while trying to pick the smaller and shallower potholes in a section of road that could only be called a crater farm.

We pulled in to take a quick pee break and top off our tanks about a half an hour later and I noticed the circulating pump was making a lot of noise. looking up under the fender, this is what I saw

Note that fitting in the foreground is crushed and the hose in front of it is rubbed through. Also the four return hose fittings where all broken off .

All the electrolyte in the tank had leaked out.

So I pulled the fuse for the cell and the fuse for the pump, zip tied the hoses out of the way and continued on the rip ride.

By the second stop for gas I was experiencing an intermittent odometer. It would stop working for miles and then sudden start up again.

I also had to adjust my chain to nearly the limit on the eccentric.

And I still wasn't up to the RIP ride.

Made it home safe from the RIP ride, although the odometer would come and go,

Also when I got home my rear tire looked like this

the chain was also shot.

And the mileage figured from google maps and other peoples gps logs worked out to be about 38mpg.

So I ordered a chain and a set of Angel ST's from Jake Wilson,

I pulled the tank to fill the holes, called for new fittings and went to buy more sheet aluminum.

Working ebay netted the paypal $$ to get an Autotune Module.

This time the sheets cost three times as much as before, so the beer and pizza money for the month was spent on sheet aluminum.

Two days after I got home, My wife's car, aka the family taxi, blew up the transmission.

so dipping into the emergency savings fund, I embarked on a three week adventure in replacing a modern electronic controlled transmission.

Here is a picture of the beast

Thanks the old dead one. That big round hole just above the pan gasket is where the computer harness connects to take all its readings from all the sensors. It has about 20 pins and is a bugger to get off.

The black thing a few inches behind that is the electronically controlled solenoids for the Manumatic mode.

It was like the entire car was built around the transmission as a ton of stuff had to be removed just to get to the transmission.

here is part of the pile of parts in my Dad's garage.

All I can say about that is thank god my Dad still drinks coffee.

So it was mid August before I could get back to working on the bike. Of course this was only a priority to me as my boy both had football camps, my Dad wanted to travel and my wife just kept saying "what's your rush?"

My rush was I trying to get ready for the WDGAH rally.

Of course it was still blazingly hot, so I worked until I was just about passing out in the heat of the garage.

Wednesday the 8th, just two days before leaving for WDGAH, the bike looked like this.

This time I shaped the sheets of the tray to make the front section lower and yet not able to hit the tire, It practically parallels the battery box angle and allowed the cell to sit closer to vertical. The main tank raised unit it just touches the bottom of passenger seat and the fuse panel sits just forward of that. The pump's location was okay, I shifted it back just a bit.

But the PCM, the PCV and the AutoTune had placement issues and I needed to fit a vacuum switch for the Autotune.

In the end I moved the map sensor forward by unbolting it and using the brackets rear mounting hole to bolt it to front hole in the subframe.

That left me room to tuck the pcm up under the bodywork on the right side, pretty much right under the franken bolt.

The PCV and auto are tucked into the left side subframe rail prettymuch next to the battery.

A couple of minor adjustments to the shock controls netted another discovery, The remote hydraulic preload adjuster hose was slightly weeping fluid, so It would not give the full range of preload adjustment.

Topping off the system and then tightening the fitting took care of the preload issue.

All this got put together with some time to spare, So I had time to lay out my route to the hotel and plan on how to make it up there in time for the BBQ.

I packed much less in the way of liquids for the bike and clothes, but much more in the way of tools, so the weight was pretty close the earlier trip.

Still I had no time to put together a serious trim for the Autotune, so I guessed at a close to stoichiometric map and loaded the PCV.

On the ride up again I had the odometer die out, it was strange as it seemed to be failing when the bike was hot and in traffic, but the speedo was working and the clocks were fine.

anyway I got to the BBQ with some of the early earlybirds and parked in the row with three generations of VFR's, My ride was sandwiched between a 1098 and a bmw

Again using the google maps and input from a couple of other rider's gps's, I calculated mileage on the trip up to be 43 mpg. Not bad considering I was running 85-90 for most of the slab sections, so the NJ turnpike from exit 4 to the parkway, the parkway to NY, the Palisades to Bear mountain and finally the Taconic were all done at that flogging pace. Even when I got off onto the secondary roads I was still running a good clip. I would have expected about 37-38 mpg on that.

That night I downloaded the trim tables and found huge sections had no adjustments from me really not running there.

So on Saturday, while we were flitting around on those wonderful roads, I was trying to run all sorts of strange rpm and throttle openings, to help fill out the tables.

My odometer was cutting in and out so much, that I gave up trying to get a mileage reading and I can't use the route maps because we were off them, cutting off little bits or doubling back far to often to work out a mileage by them.

On Sunday, I decided to run up to Grand Isle and check in with Dustin, It was much cooler that day so the odometer worked perfectly, but the trip was only 120 miles in one direction and I filled up in Burlington VT on the way up.

Still I showed the setup to Dustin and he noticed two things. One, the check valve between the main tank and my bubbler was malfunctioning, so the gas output to the bubbler was cycling or pulsing. That was replaced with a new check valve in a couple of seconds and then I had a steady stream of gas bubbling up in the bubbler. The second thing he noticed was that I wasn't drawing a full 10 amps with the cell, it seemed my electrolyte was too diluted so I was only drawing about 7 amps.

Still I a good quantity of gas flowing, enough to make noticeable differences in the idle speed and exhaust sound.

The run back to the hotel that night was marked by really heavy and near freezing rain.

I can tell you that my Rev'IT infinity did not lead a drop, but I nearly froze, since I had not taken enough layers with me. The suit does not let wind through, but it will get very cold on its own. An electric vest or just a couple more layers of fleece would have done the trick.

Monday came cloudy but dry and about 50 F, so I gassed up and headed home. I had checked the trims and found that the majority of the cells had adjustments.

The first tank of gas was great, pretty much everything you could ask for, but when I stopped for the second tank right before getting on the Taconic, again the odometer was not reading.

Still I got home without any other troubles, and calculated that the run home netted right about 46mpg.

Again I was running hard and fast on all the slab and managed to dodge the evening rush hour traffic bottlenecks on the turnpike.

A couple of days after I got back, went to add more electrolyte to the main tank and discovered that I did not have 12V at the fuseblock.

Digging a little deeper, I found that the even with the auxiliary fuse block disconnected the bike was properly charging.

It was hovering about 12.2 and would occasionally dip to 11.8, when it did that the Odometer would stop functioning until the bike was restarted.

I was floored, here I bad been riding around since July on a dying R&R.

So our own tightwad got my business as I ordered one of his hd R&R's and an old chunk of aluminum plate got cut to act as a mounting plate/heat sink for the new unit.

I did a short video of that installation along with the current HHO Install and posted it on Youtube.

Now I have not been riding much since, so I have not had a lot of time to get the Autotune dialed in more. I've been busy drawing up the next version of this cell (it will be thinner and more efficient at the same time.), a separate gas cell design where the Hydrogen and Oxygen come out separately (allowing conditioning of the two gases before injection into the intake), and a direct fracturing injection system (along with a cold fog expansion media).

So the 80mpg VFR is not here yet, but I have lots of work on the planning table trying to get us there.

Money has always been the issue, that's why we are trying for the Pepsi refresh everything vote. Please help.

go HERE and vote for the project.

A lot of that research is going to be needed to create the 80 mpg VFR or even a completely renewable fueled VFR.

Is your son a student? Win 7 is very cheap for students and educational professionals, I got mine (Win 7 Pro) for somewhere around $40. Which model laptop do you have?

My oldest is a sophomore in HS. His school is closing for good this june and he has to transfer to another one in September.

I have a HP DV7 Pavillion.

As I said when I ordered it, I specified XP professional.

What It came with was Vista home edition the same thing that my son's came with a month before.

It was an uphill battle with HP to even get a copy of XP pro out of them, then a longer battle searching on the internet to get all the drives needed.

Finally I had something that mostly worked by November and was too desperate to go through the grief of upgrading to 7 pro.

But now that it looks like I need a complete OS reload, I may just move up to 7 Pro.

HP has all the drivers for this laptop in 32 and 64 bit versions of 7.

I can tell its time to wrestle the big backup drive from the wife and start prepping for another windows install.

I guess it could be worse. The prior laptop had the display fail over about a three day period and I did not have spare monitor to plug into it at the time.

I look forward to seeing your results once the priming issues is sorted.

Would your cell fit behind the number plate? if so it could be mounted vertically which would solve the priming issues your having.

Nate

EDIT - get ubuntu linux - the latest version runs silky smooth and makes old laptops seem new again (although I am running windows 7 on this laptop it has no support for the graphics chipset so streaming video/watching dvds is a no go)

No it won't fit behind the license plate, as its 3+ inches thick. I thought about tucking it up behind the fender, sort of like a scottoiler's tank, but that is still a 3+ inch thick brick.

So I'd be hanging a pretty big mass back at the rear most point of the bike. And since that would force me to move the main tank somewhere else that might not resolve the priming issue.

So It's measure, measure, measure and cut time again. I might get some breathing room to trim it out and bend some aluminum sheet to make a new tray and mount...

As far as the laptop goes, I bought this one September of 2008, just as the windows 7 beta was released for corporate testing.

Vista professional did not have supported component libraries so my development tools would not compile and run on it unless I ran all my stuff in XP compatibility mode. I called SDK company and they said they were doing vista, they were already working on Windows 7 Libraries.

So I had to fight with HP to backdate the OS on my new laptop to XP pro. I had ordered it through a corporate portal and specified the OS must be XP pro (which of course they charged extra for). We literally got to the point of me saying "okay take it back at and pay me back in full, but my corporate survey will state that you refused to take care of your mistake"

Whoops that stopped them short so they sent me a copy of xp pro and a driver set to shut me up.

Not all the drivers ever worked as the wireless networking never worked.

But every driver update for this laptop since xp pro service pack 3 came out has had one bad driver after another.

Now I have to reboot or crash every 8 hours or so as SVCHOST has a huge processor clock cycles issue. It eventually just max's out both processors and eventually crashes the machine.

What I love its that my son as exactly the model laptop, but he's running vista pro and it has always crashed since day one like mine is now.

But a friend of mine also has this laptop and he's running windows 7 without any problems. He's even overclocked it and he's stable.

So that is where I think I going as soon as I can get a lower cost copy of window 7 professional upgrade.

Just some ramblings from me (before the rumblings from the last driver update kill this laptop, do not install driver patches after service pack 3 on an laptop running XP PRO).

It looks like I'm going to have to go back in under the seat, so that I can get the cell more upright and a little bit lower.

Priming the cell after a longer run is getting to be a pain. But it looks like a little re-arranging will do the job.

I have two options, one is to make a couple of brackets to attach the cell to rear of the rack mounts and the back of the subframe, then move the tank up and forward to just behind the frankenbolts. This is not the best idea in my mind because it creates three issues.

1. I'll have to pull the seat every time I need to add water to the main tank.

2. It puts the heaviest part of the system, the cell itself at the far back of the bike AND puts it directly into the spray from the rear tire.

3. If I upgrade to a double stack later, it will destroy the stealth of the cell putting out in plain sight.

The second option is to form a box for the cell to slide into, and cut away the underseat tray just behind the battery box (a la, Veefer800Canuck's underseat tray to clear his under seat exhaust). The pluses here are:

I can stand the cell nearly vertical, while getting down below the top of the main tank, so priming issues should go away.

I can move switching (on key on) relay, the fuse block, the pcm, the power commander V and the inbound autotune module, while still having room for a pwm for the cell later, a pwm fan controller and any wiring for HID's.

I'll have the cell tucked in closer to the center of mass on the bike, while still having enough room to upgrade it larger cell later on.

I will be able to fill the tank without constantly removing the seat, further preserving the stealth of the install.

In fact, if I can find the right source for the materials, I can even fab up a larger main tank.

I can already tell that I'll be out tomorrow (oops later today) with the tape measure confirming what I'm thinking here and now.

Its got to be better than just waiting for this laptop to die, so I get to go through the windows 7 upgrade.

Autotune module is finally shipping to me.

I had enough $$ after having to get a realtime scan tool for the wife's car (looks like it has a flaky HEGO).

If your bikes injection does it have an O2 sensor some where in the intake? If so the extra oxygen coming from the cell will be picked up by this and the system will add more fuel to compensate which will then increase the revs. This will also lead to a lower MPG which is why you have to run the system a little leaner to compensate for this. The best option is to add a MAP sensor on a timer switch (or manual switch) that you can turn on when the revs rise (so this will give you a cell warm up period, similar to using a choke).

Nate

Yes, my bike is a 2001 so it has a catalyst and two o2 sensors in the exhaust as well as a map sensor connected to the throttle bodies. However, both of my O2 sensors are currently disconnected as part of the Power Commander installation is to replace them with 'O2 eliminators' (they are really just blank o2 sensor connector with a resistor across a couple of terminals to simulate the o2 sensors heater circuit).

O2 sensors always go in the exhaust to measure the post-combustion oxygen content. There are several issues with this ranging from:

1.The EPA actually Mandates a rich enough mixture to guarantee that the catalytic converter is kept up to operating temperature.

2.The reading from the oxygen sensor is taken post-combustion and applied to the calculation for future conditions, which may or may not be appropriate.

and there are other issues as well.

Now the AutoTune module will also install a wideband o2 sensor (most oem o2 sensors only handle a narrow range of readings corresponding to a what are considered normally acceptable AF ratios), but since the person tuning can set what they want the target AF ratios to be, it doesn't really matter. If the AutoTune O2 sensor consistently reads a false lean then just accept that as a target when the HHO is flowing and set a start up timer to let the oem computer handle fuel until the cell has ramped up.

Well I was sure that I posted this earlier (or rather late last night), but I can't seem to find it now.

I've noticed a couple of small things and changed one detail as I ride around trying scrape up the coin for the Autotune module and a base dyno tune.

First the change,

I got a lot of questions, in emails and comments on other sites, on how was I measuring the amp draw of the cell and not the draw of the whole circuit.

Well the best answer is, I really wasn't. I had put a 15 amp fuse in BlueSea fusebox and would remove it, jumping around it get amp reading with my multimeter.

That would give me the total amperage of the circuit and since the pump nominally draws 1.6 amps running, I'd just do the math.

But in the interest of accurate measurements and because I could, I split the circuit, putting the pump circuit on an empty slot and sticking a 10 amp fuse in the cell circuit.

Then I dumb and forgot that the meter's amp reading mode is fused for 25 amps and tried to test the whole fusebox draw. Pop went the fuse and I don't have another yet (trip to hardware store tomorrow for fuses, check).

When I get the multimeter sorted, I'll be able to get a direct reading of the cells amp draw.

This was also spurred by a minor issue I had when ran the level in the main tank down to far and the pump started to suck gas back into the cell.

I refilled the tank and wanted to prime the cell so I could squeeze in those last few ml of water. But I really did not want to start and idle away the gas in the bike, nor did I just want to set the whole system load plus my 13amp drain on the battery without having the system charging it. Add in that if I start the bike and the cell runs it makes gas, building pressure in the tank right away, which makes filling it that last little bit a kind of challenge. That also drove the circuit separation I detailed above.

Now with just a jumper wire and pulling one fuse I can run the pump to fill the tank without making gas.

It only takes a minute or two to prime the cell that way so the less than 2 amp load won't kill the battery.

Secondly, I think I mentioned that when I first installed the cell and got it running, the idle speed increased noticeably (it was over 2000 rpm at about 180 degrees indicated on the temp gauge). I turned it down until it was below 1500 and will check it a little later with the PC V, but its stable for now and starts fine cold. I really didn't think anything more about it until just the other day while demonstrating the gas production for a friend.

The VFR was warmed up, as in coolant temp read 160 as soon as the panel lit up. I started the bike and it came to life with a normal sounding idle running about 1100-1200. Then close to 45 seconds after I started it up, the idle picked up to just under 1500 and the exhaust sound changed (there was more of a throb to it, don't know how else to describe it). Neither of us touched the throttle and we both looked at each other.

I'm guessing that is just the delay that occurs as the gas has to travel from the cell to the main tank bubble up into the outlet tube, then make its way forward to the second bubbler/drier/scrubber and bubble up through that again, then finally up to the intake and into engine.

While Jim was standing there I pulled the fuse, the idle dropped back down in about a minute and the exhaust sound settled as well.

I stuck the fuse back in and counted beats of my heart (hey I did not have watch with sweep hand or stop watch app in phone). I counted 58 beats and the exhaust note changed as the idle increased (for the record my resting heart rate is right on 78 beats a minute, that's just about 45 seconds).

I'll try and get some video of it with a stopwatch, but is just goes to show that something is noticeable even at idle with the cell running a safe (read low amp draw) electrolyte concentration.

I don't remember ever reading about anyone trying all tall or all short stacks,

Or even making ones other than stock lengths (heights).

Sounds like something that BLS would try if someone asked him enough.

Oh well I've got to get back to mocking up another HHO cell installation with my scrap wood blocks.

Yes trapped air is a problem with this cell which is why I will run it on the pump for a while and rotate it until no more air bubbles up through the header tank. I just need to decide on what pump to use - I've found drill powered pumps and an wondering if I could adapt that to fit on the sprocket cover of my cb500 but I'll probably look at chemical processing industry for a low volume/low power pump.

I like how you have added an individual feed to each plate, mine is drilled in such a way that the electrolyte circulates and flows over all the surfaces which I think wouldn't be quite as efficient as your cell. One major fault with my layout is that if it's left to generate without the pump switched on pockets of gas will build up in small areas which would further reduce efficiency.

I really look forward to seeing your results!

Nate

Well those drill powered pumps usually a huge 1/2 hose diameter and will probably generate way too much flow.

I know the little plastic fuel pump I'm using is good for 23 G/H which is more flow than I need, but it is rugged enough to last, it is a plastic pump so there are no issues with reaction or corrosion from the electrolyte. The running amp draw is about 1.5 amps, so its not a big loss and its a common off the part pump. I can get one from the local auto supply tomorrow if mine fails.

I wouldn't need one in my design if I had been able to mount the cell upright and I thought about changing the installation to get it mounted upright, but I'd still go with the pump.

The difference in gas production when I was testing the cell on a bench rig was very noticeable. Even when I wired it in series with the cell on the bench and cost the cell amps and volts, it still made more gas than without the pump.

I think that the pump generated flow sweeps the micro bubbles off the plates, keeping them wetted and producing gas.

JES_VFR, Here's my cell.

Let me know if you'd like pictures from different angles. I have to replace one of the nylon plates as I over-tightened the anode terminal causing it to fracture, it's just cosmetic and it's still water tight - it just looks crap!

Nate

That's pretty slick, it looks alot like a Smack gen IV.

Which was a good cell design. The challenge with that design was keeping the cells filled equally and/or keeping it running in a drycell configuration (too much fluid = wet cell).

I'd love to be able to keep that cell gap that close while still getting a fittings into each cell to circulate the electrolyte. Tapping the threads for the fittings requires a thicker manifold.

I'm working on reducing the gap as much as I can, nesting the plates and gaskets, while keeping the fittings in the manifold. It's never going to be that narrow though.

Well I hacked up the one video I shot covering the install and some of the leak testing.

It's pared down to just a short example of the cell making gas.

I don't know how to get embed the flickr player, so I'll just throw up a link to the whole page.

A short video of the cell making gas.

I realize that, I don't show it with the engine running and the cell drawing its power from the charging system, but it is just a quick and dirty hack job on some of the installation video I shot. I have quite a bit more video to work on and will be sending a it on to the company website, so it will eventually get there.

Umm... not quite the same as your setup, but, - http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

James May reviewed it during an episode of Top Gear.

And I happen to like my VTEC, a lot... :biggrin:

Hey go and like your Vtec all you want. I personally just see it as "chest beating" grandstanding moment from Honda, it did not significantly improve the VFR, but gave Honda the ability to say "we were the first". Hey the soviets were the first into space and you can see where it got them, right?!?!?!

As for that Honda, they are storing Hydrogen on board, not producing it, so they still have to deal with storage, supply infrastructure and energy density issues.

I'm sort of keeping half an eye it, but it so far is just looks like another token Hydrogen/electric hybrid.

So your saying that good ideas can only come from the "best engineers in the world". Wait aren't these the same Engineers that gave us the Half-assed Vtec on the 2002? Or the mighty GM Impact? Or the Ponitac Aztek? Or another number of disasters, including the last wave of gas guzzling SUV's???

Hardly. I'm thinking more the folks at MIT, CalTech, Stanford, et al. These are guys that create the stuff which eventually makes its way to the corporates. I see none of those guys giving weight to the whole HHO idea.

There are people from MIT, CalTech and other engineering universities on some of these forums all working on HHO technology. In fact these guys believe in it so much that they are doing the research on shoestring budgets, since there is very little funding for HHO research right now.

HHO is not one of Pet technologies (like wind, solar, Bio-diesel and a few others), so it's not as easy to get backing.

It reminds me of some Aussie fellas who had "invented" a backyard perpetual motion machine. It used permanent magnets that - once you started spinning it by hand - kept it spinning forever and ever and generating electricity. They were TOTALLY CONVINCED it worked - TOTALLY. When actual physicists came in and PROVED it was total bollocks, they didn't accept it, because they were unable to actually comprehend the laws of physics properly.

I remember some of those stories, and the scammers with their junkyard HHO devices do not help any of the alternative energy movement either.

The fundamental problem here is that the people coming up with these ideas don't understand physics enough to prove themselves wrong. They only know enough to keep proving themselves right, and are constantly surprised when they can't get energy out of the system. But they KEEP GOING because they don't have the ability to prove themselves wrong.

A good scientist knows when to call something a dead end. A bad scientist wastes his entire life on it with nothing to show for it except conviction.

Of course everything I say here will only make y'all think I'm "a suit", "the man", "brainwashed by big oil", "too stupid to understand the intricacies of the technology", etc.

Well it makes me wonder why you are so anxious to put me off the research.

I'm not trying to sell anyone here anything, I'm not trying to force anyone here to have any real involvement with this.

I'm only trying to share my experiments and my results with a group of people that I felt were enthusiasts at some level.

If this all turns out to be a bust, then your welcome to be the first to say "I told you so".

I have to say you guys will be proven wrong! These so called "laws" are stipulated by a man, who is himself not infallible. The laws are so dated, take the laws of Thermodynamics for example - they were made before the introduction of high oscilation square tooth wave forms, low power ICs didn't exist.... the second law of thermodynamics was established in the 1820's (when man thought airtravel was impossible) so do you really think that they still stand true today with the amount of advancements made in other areas?

I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with these "laws" of science. What I think we as people lack at this time, is sufficient understanding of how much certain conditions (like how fast something is comsumed) has on all the other aspects of the process and the overall results.

Of course everything I say here will only make y'all think I'm "a suit", "the man", "brainwashed by big oil", "too stupid to understand the intricacies of the technology", etc.

The real question is why you CARE so much that some ingenious person is laboring away "wasting" his energy doing something that you insist is impossible.

Start looking at the root cause behind this need and the rest of the situation becomes a lot clearer IMHO.

As I said, I wonder what Kaldek's motives to discourage me are. If they are because you attempted this sort of thing and failed, so you are trying to keep me from repeating your lack of success then I thank you, but I'm still going to try everything I can think of to make this work.

If your comments come from the absolute knowledge that some law of science is about to be violated, then please show me the equations that prove your stand point.

I honestly don't see my experiment as violating any 'laws' of nature, I just see it playing with the speed of the reactions to take advantage of what is already there.

Regarding conspiracy theories.. take the Diesel engine for example.... ....the inventor was murdered and the engine was reborn years lator to run on a by product of oil refining!

The oil companies are very powerful and they dictate almost every aspect of our lives.....

I have to say you guys will be proven wrong! These so called "laws" are stipulated by a man, who is himself not infallible. The laws are so dated, take the laws of Thermodynamics for example - they were made before the introduction of high oscilation square tooth wave forms, low power ICs didn't exist.... the second law of thermodynamics was established in the 1820's (when man thought airtravel was impossible) so do you really think that they still stand true today with the amount of advancements made in other areas?

The root cause is how Joe Public has been "conditioned" by an education system controlled by a governing body funded by oil companies....

TBH no one person can do anything about it - but people's eyes are opening thanks to the internet and the immense wealth of information available to anyone with the motivation to use it.

Wow! You are really "out there", aren't you? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that the Laws of Thermo are "dated". Has the force of gravity changed, too? So much for all my wasted years in engineering school....

As for the vast amount of information on the Internet (and as Kaldek touched on in both of his well-stated posts, above), it can provide an immense wealth of psuedo-scientific nonsense and conspriacy theories that Lotus Eaters can latch onto and proclaim as "proof". :lurk:

As for JES, I totally agree that he has done a fine job of defending his position with gentlemanly responses and discussion. I just don't believe in HHO at all.

Solyent green is people!!

Trace, You are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe about HHO. I don't have data to prove or disprove my position yet. I hope that when I have gathered data, that you will reconsider your position and participate in further discussion of testing and the value of the results.

I think it is silly to argue about whether it will work…let the tests prove it…and then argue about the testing methodology. Throwing insults around is useless and won’t do anything but create ill will.

I, for one, would like to see a video of the tank working and doing its thing.

This thing would be worth it just for the "mad scientist" cosmetic points. In a world where people waste time polishing their rims, putting on hugger fenders and rear-fender eliminators, converting to high and under-tail exhausts (heck, all after-market exhausts in any case other than crash or severe rust damage), and a whole host of cosmetic and silly add-ons that don't do diddly to real performance (not that high-performance is even needed on the street in real-world, non-track, riding), I can't see why people are so up in arms and out to "prove" that this is scientifically unfounded and a huge "waste of time and effort."

It's funny how this subject brings out the haterz in force.

Well I do have video of the gas cell running, that I shot when I was testing the cell installation for leaks. I did not record the specific volume at that time, because I was more concerned with the tubing runs, fitting of a last few components and issues like the pump heating up.

It is large file and I do not have a place to host it right now. If someone wants to see parts of it, I can try to cut it down to something I can mail or upload here.

If someone has a site or a suggestion on a fairly secure site to host it, then please let me know. I just don't want to put it up on you tube and have it hacked or stolen.

I don't see this problem as overcoming the laws of thermodynamics.

A catalyst is introduced into the system that is claimed to improve combustion.

No one claims that that there is no loss in producing the catalyst.

However IF the energy expanded on producing it is less than the gains realized from its use, then we have a net gain.

If this is treated as a scientific experiment, then we can not really prove or disprove it by burning gas in a calorimeter with and w/o HHO and measuring the change in temperature less the 'cost' of producing HHO.

Real world combustion adds other variables to this equation, that just might tip the net gain in favor of HHO.

It is no secret that the i-net is full of BS claims. Sometimes the only way to know for sure is to try it yourself or, like in this case, watch someone who can be trusted do it for you. (we can trust you, right, Jes? :laughing6-hehe:)

So IMHO, it is a win-win situation, where all outcomes are positive. Even if it turns out that this claim can't be supported, we will all learn something valuable.

Go Jes! :biggrin:

That is exactly the point I reached. There is so much crap out there on the web, that I just finally said I have to try this and see for myself.

I doing the best I can with the micro sized budget that I have right now, but sometimes that is all you can do.

Honestly I think that some of the people here will learn a lot no matter which way this experiment goes. Some may be swayed in the end of the results are positive. Unfortunately there are a few that will not ever believe the results and have already made up their minds.

Forward I go, for everyone, even the adamant negative people.

I brought this here to share with our VFR family as knowledge gained, one way or the other.

Thank you for the questions big and small, don't be afraid to ask. I don't have all the answers, but I will do my best.

Absolutely - the Powercommander alone can corrupt the data because if you fit this thing and then get a custom tune, you could well end up with better MPG purely because of the Powercommander.

I still think it's all hogwash. In todays market if the best engineers in the world aren't working on this right now, it means it doesn't work. Saying different = conspiracy theory.

So your saying that good ideas can only come from the "best engineers in the world". Wait aren't these the same Engineers that gave us the Half-assed Vtec on the 2002? Or the mighty GM Impact? Or the Ponitac Aztek? Or another number of disasters, including the last wave of gas guzzling SUV's???

Who determines "best engineers in the world" status????

If these so called "best" engineers aren't working on it right now, it only means that the mother corporation doesn't see a tax break or a profit in it.

That's all.

No conspiracy theory, just a simple fact.

These companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, Nissan, Toyota, Suzuki, etc...) don't see HHO as a technology that will increase their bottom line, so it gets ignored.

I am by no means a scientist…but I do love the theory and discussion. One thing I keep hearing is that “you can’t get as much work out as you are putting in”….I understand this theory, and it is true in every case I have seen tested, but I think the point of it all is that we aren’t currently at a 1:1 ratio of effort to work, and thus there is room to improve the ratio without violating any laws of physics. The effort to distill the HHO is a perfect example….why worry about the work involved to distill it as long as it doesn’t require a charging system upgrade (which would draw more power)?

Hallelujah, He get's it. I'd go one step further, even if I have to upgrade the charging system to get enough power for the HHO production, who cares as long as it yields more total work from the engine for less gasoline consumption.

If he gets 1 verifiable MPG more, without power loss, it will be a success. People are willing to run gas additives that claim the same thing…what’s the difference?

Yes, that is technically correct, but if I only get 1 mpg, then I'm going to be a little disappointed. I'd certainly be off looking at what the design needs to make it more successful.

My thoughts on how to verify the upgrade I still stand behind…if you are adding HHO AND a Powercommander, you have to test them individually…otherwise you have no proof that the additional power and/or MPG changes are HHO related and not PC related, right?

Hey I never argued that the PC V should not be tested and numbers recorded to see what it can do, then the HHO and a map for boosting added to see what it can do. I'm kind of doing the data recording for a third option right now, and that is "what does the HHO do with no tuning"

and all this time I that 'brown gas' was the by product of a good burrito! :fing02:

I thought that depended on how much Guacamole was in the burrito,

But seriously did you expect the guy to change his name just because someone was going to name a science discovery after him?

i think im going to stick with plain old gas and not have all this other stuff adding complexity and weight. when you get your perpetual motion machine working let me know :)

fine when we get to the 80+ mpg VFR we WON'T bother you.

Cheers for the update/info.

Here's the link for the DC-DC converter

http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Artesyn-Technologies/SMT40C-12SADJJ/?qs=wFvjjzoUshL%252bTAp46cm1Cg==

The benefits of using one is that you can cut the number of plates you use and have access to a higher amperage than say with a neutral stacked plated arrangement - as that relies on neutrals to lower the voltage between plates yet it's still limited by the supply current - where as stepping down the voltage greatly increases the amount of current available at the load side of the DC-DC converter 10amp @ 12v or 40amps @ 3v both equate to 120 watts consumption.

Hey whatever works for you. I don't see how it saves you plates as you need just as many plates (if not more) to make enough cells to make up enough parallel plate area to handle the higher amperage. If you don't do this then you get into an over-current density situation. Add in that you have the complexity of wiring up all those plates to a positive or negative bus, versus three connections if I was to build a double stack with your plates. My cell only needs one positive and one negative connections and the current flows across all cells equally. As you pointed out the wattage is the same whether you use the Voltage stepdown converter or not, but I have not seen anything that proves to me the parallel cell would make more gas than your plates in a center tap double series stack would.

These is some discussion about the field effect from the continuous flow of current increasing production in a series design versus the parallel designs. I do have a experiment planned for a slightly later date to compare a center tapped double series stack to a current aligned double series stack. Just to see if adding the one extra insulator plus one extra plate and aligning the current to all flow in one direction makes any difference in the output.

Regards to the metal, conditioning it thoroughly before use is a necessity - I carried out 5 x 6 hour cycles - each time using a fresh KOH electrolyte until there was no residue floating on the surface.

If the electrolyte is still taking on a yellow to orange color, its still leeching out iron and chromium

I'm not 100% sure about using KOH in the engine as it can be carried in the vapor which would cause heavy damage to the valve edges.

That is what the second freshwater (it's about 50% windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing) bubbler is for its scrubs any last trace of KOH out of the gas.

Here's another link you may be interested in http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Moray_King:Closed-Loop_Water_Fuel_Cell

cool, I check that out later, I think I was there a long time ago.

From what I've studied to get an engine to run exclusively on HHO you need to carry out a number of internal modifications :

- ignition needs to be past TDC, Hydrogen ignites at a significantly faster rate than petrol, if it were to be ignited at the same point as petrol it would cause bad pinking/knocking... basically f***ing the piston/rods.

Yup, it needs to be pretty much at TDC.

- Eliminate any waste spark that may occur (unless timing is taken off of the cam gear) since the ignition advancing will bring it to the intake cycle igniting the intake (kablammo!)

Or change the camshafts events, which since your running a closed intake system, very much like a propane conversion, you can afford much smaller intake and exhaust events and almost no duration in the camshaft

- stainless exhaust (lots of water vapour - a by product of HHO combustion)

I recommend that for any car and Ti for any bike so that is nothing new for me.

- stainless steel valves

Again, or inconel or ti.

- possibly ceramic coat the bores to ensure longevity (long term exposure to hydrogen causes the metals to turn brittle)

that is only if it isn't already on of this Nikasil or other silicon/carbide cylinder treatments.

You can get really deep into this - stuff like tuned resonance circuits, saltwater radio wave combustion, joes cell, shim-stock coil cells, bacterial hydrogen, additives that react with water to produce hho, etc etc.

that's an understatement! Add in all the infighting and arguing over what works and what doesn't it's enough to make sane person crazy.

I no longer own my RC36 - partexed her for the CB500 solely to save money on fuel/consumables and to make servicing easier (plus I've been promised a new motorcycle pending a payrise at work - maybe a Datona 675 or a Thruxton... not too sure yet!)

Well that is truly a shame. Putting a cell on a rc36 would have been a treat. I hope the raise does pay for a new machine. I'm leaning towards either a sprint 1050 or the new VFR1200F for the corporate asset long term test machine. It will live in my garage as one a test/demonstration unit.

Well the latest development is that the sight glass on the tank does not work. So there is a refilling issue. I'll probably have to add a topside T fitting to it and lengthen total tubing length. Either that or mock up a different tank. If I have to do that I'm going to go bigger and use a different fill method

I won't go too far into detail but I'll answer the above..

1. 9 plates

2. high molybdenum content stainless.

the high moly content is good, Your really looking for low iron and low chromium alloys. That's were the SS starts to get expensive.

3. still not decided on this.

I'd use a medium concentration of Potassium Hydroxide if I were you, but I'm always looking for a better electrolyte.

4. Plates are 150mm x 75mm, plate gap is 1.25mm. I did work out the active surface area but don't have the notes to hand.

Well the total surface area is only 12.2 sq-in..

5. I've been using a standard in-line flashback arrestor as the reservoir acts as the bubbler and it has a pop-off lid to prevent pressure build up.

good, but a second small bubbler with just some windshield washer fluid in it would scrub and dry your gas as well as easing any leveling issues with your main tank.

What pump are you using to circulate the electrolyte? I have experimented with one from a water cooled PC block although it isn't suited to the harsh chemicals involved.

Im using on of these fuel pump. Admittedly its kind of over kill for what it can circulate compared with what I really need, but it can withstand the environment and continuous duty.

Btw - using low voltage means I can configure the plates +-+-+-+-+ amperage and voltage is inversly proportional, so dropping the voltage will mean I have a higher number of amps to play with 20amps @ 3v is equal (no including losses) to 5amps @ 12v

okay so instead of configuring the cell in series, you've configured it as a parallel stack. Now I get your voltage and amperage numbers. You can add the plate areas together to since they are all in parallel and send a lot more current through design, but at that lower voltage.

Still that would seem to be a lot of more work than is needed.

I would have built the cell as a center tapped double stack and not bothered with trying to do the DC/DC conversion. Any energy conversion offers another efficiency loss.

plus if it was reconfigured as the double series stack, it would only need about 12-13 amps to make the best gas.

I look forward to seeing your results and I'd like to add I'm not on here to debate, just to offer support as this is a subject I'm very much interested in.

Hey, I'm glad to have your input, I just was trying to understand your design, and at some level get an understanding of your knowledge about HHO.

I've had people come up to me over the last week or so and say things like "those things never work because you have to pump like a 100 amps into them to get them to make any gas".

Which we both know is not an accurate statement. I've also seen designs built locally that were trying very hard, but were all build on the wrong principals of operation so they were all making way more steam than gas.

I've been distracted from this project and have been following Orbo as well as working on a replication of this...

Its interesting that you are working with magnetics now, as magnetic fields are one of the interacting technologies that I'm planning on trying to increase performance in the cell.

I have an interest in magnetics and have been playing with a basic magnetic resonance circuit using a ferrite barium magnet core and the sound output from my PC as a signal generator... I wish I could afford an oscilloscope!

I believe refining the combustion engine is flogging a dead horse and clean, solid state electric gen is the way forward...

Well, Its not the best work horse we have, but there really are not any better mobile choices yet.

I will post pics of the cell/space under the CB when I get the time to.

Send a couple of pictures of the underseat and underneath space on the rc36 as well.

Nate

Well I'm off to see that emissions crap issue the wife's car has now.

Anyway, we can argue until we're blue in the face. Let's see how your tests work out.

Dirk

fair enough, I'm trying to get an acquaintance to sign-on for the base tune before HHO boosting, the first tune after switching on the HHO and the later performance and mileage runs.

Hi,

I also have a dry-cell configuration, I was planning to put into my RC36 and use a DC-DC converter to drop the voltage down to 2.6v (the nominal voltage for electrolysis) which would enable me to boost the output up to 20amps without straining the charging system too much (works out a little over 40watts consumption).

To cut a long story short I decided not to install it on my bike as I was stuck for finding a space to install the header tank.

I now have a CB500 which has quite a roomy boot under the seat, in which I will install my dry cell and then mount the tank either on the back rack or directly above the cell.

Does your cell run on brute force electrolysis? I've put together a basic PWM circuit back when I was bench testing a few ideas but I'm not entirely convinced it's worth installing it - especially if I use a DC converter to raise the amps.

PS - to everyone interested in learning about HHO production visit http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Electrolysis

Cheers

Nate

Okay Nate, I have to ask a couple of questions.

1. How many cells are in your dry cell design?

2. What material are you using for your plates?

3. What are you using for electrolyte?

4. What is the surface area of your plates and how large are your gaskets?

5. You are using a bubbler/drier as a backflash arrestor, right??

The reason I'm asking this is I'm trying to figure out why you want to send 20 amps through your cell and why you think that 2.6 volts at 20 amps is going yield gas.

If you are using Stainless Steel for both plates, then you should set your voltage drop across each cell gap to roughly 2 volts. So if the bike is charging the battery at say 13.4 volts then run a 6 cell design, but if it regularly runs at 14 to 15 volts then run a seven cell design.

And I would not setup the current draw to be more than .5 for every square inch of exposed plate. To much current is just as bad as too much voltage, either one will make the cell run hot and once it heats up your making steam not hho gas.

I'd be very cautious of these materials as there are long term issues with the wrong stainless steels (304 is a no-no long term) and issues with Hexavalent chromium leeching. Electrolyte becomes poisoned over time and is a hazardous waste.

I am doing brute force electrolysis, using Ti and Ti MMO coated plates. The voltage drop for my plate materials is higher at approximately 3.5V's and my plates have just a little over 22 sq inches of area so my current limit is just over 11 amps. Nothing leeches into the electrolyte to render it ineffective or more dangerous than when it was first mixed.

At some later date, I would love to move up to voltrolysis (High voltage/low current gas production through dielectric breakdown of water in the cell).

For now though, I am looking at some additional items to add to the cell to increase its production and add more control to it. A variable frequency pwm for current limiting is one of the items that I am considering.

Did you consider laying the cell on its side and using a small pump to keep it circulating?

It only draws an amp or so while running and the flushing action tends to help make more gas.

then the tank only has to be slightly higher than the cell and you can probably fit both under the seat on the rc36.

I'd bet I can fit a cell like mine on the RC36. Send me a picture of under the seat and under the rear fairing, as well as one from below looking at the back of the rear fender.

I mean I'm seriously considering adding a double stack version of my cell to the underseat/undercowl area on my RC51.

That setup would draw nearly 24 amps (11+ amps for each stack plus 1+ for the pump), so I'll have to work out the charging system issues first, but fitting the cell, the main tank and the bubbler would be no sweat.

I'll be sharing my results with several forums (including the watercar forum on yahoo) as well as posting to the company website.

And I'll be doing lots of videos as I go along discussing each change and its results.

Very poor analogy. With a supercharger, you add more air but you also add more fuel and, hence, get more energy. That's why toro's supercharger requires fuel remapping to work.

And I'm still not convinced that a large fraction of the fuel goes unburned. I have several bikes that have no catalytic converter. If they were pumping out a bunch of unburned fuel, the exhaust would smell very rich. It does not. No need to do a master's thesis to test that idea.

Dirk

true a supercharger works by packing more fuel and air into the cylinder. It does nothing to extract more power/work from the normal fuel charge.

first I did not say that the combustion doesn't finish, it does.

Just not in the chamber where it would yield more work.

Have you had the exhaust gas analyzed? Smelling rich is not the issue. If you smell much of anything in the exhaust then you have incomplete combustion.

All you have to do is have a dyno shop stick their EG Probe into you tailpipe and take a reading. If it lists anything more than 0.00 PPM for HC's, you don't have complete combustion.

let me ask you this. If the combustion that occurs in the cylinder is so close to complete, then why oh why do we need the catalytic converters to meet emissions?!?!?!?!

Think of the system as a wind-up toy car. He's not going to replace the wind-up mainspring -just oil it so that it moves better when it is unwinding. He's not trying to get any real energy out of the "oil" (hydroxy gas) -just using it to lube and improve the efficiency of the "spring" (the gasoline-powered ICE engine).

the toy car reference was a good analogy.

Good try, but not really a good analogy... It would be if you were taking a can of oil off the shelf and oiling the spring.

What you are actually trying to do is use the spring to drill, refine, transport and consume the oil by robbing it of it's finite contained energy.

Everything you do in that sentence costs you energy. Unless you strike the Well-Full-Of-Oil-That-Violates-The-Second-Law you've wasted a lot of energy moving oil around for nothing. (AKA turning water into water)

okay maybe it was too simple an analogy.

maybe it would have been better to say

I fitted a very small pump to pump oil from a small tank onto the bearings and gears, so that the spring can do a better more efficient job of turning them.

that way I'm not making the effect of oil or the delivery of it come from the ether, its done right with in the system using a small amount of the springs potential to make a larger total amount of the springs potential available to move the car.

I never said that making the gas or pumping the electrolyte around in the system did not cost me energy.

All I have ever said was that the addition of the gas to the combustion in the cylinder, makes more energy available for work from the gasoline.