kaldek

Please let us know what happens with the 87 octane.

OK so I've been riding the bike with 87 octane, with a switch for Autotune installed. It was leaning the mixture out, but I'll be buggered if I could tell the difference between the system with the switch on or off. There are negative values in the cells as expected, and I tested it a number of times and sure enough the switch works (by running on the centrestand and looking at the "fuel" values changing or not depending on if the switch was on or not). It was still getting progressively worse/crap around small throttle openings on a zero map, Autotune or not.

Today I rode to work with the PCV disconnected. It was much better, and I found it to be a pleasure to ride.

I just think there is no such thing as a true zero map. My assumption of *why* this is the case, is the fact that the Powercommander is a two-dimensional overlay on an internal ECU's three-dimensional map. Even with zero in every cell, the lower resolution of the power commander must be causing it to behave in an unforeseen way. Powercommander don't even offer zero maps anymore, and maybe there could be good reasons for this?

I am in a unique situation, in that my bike now runs richer than most and there probably isn't a map out there for me that will work. I need to piss off now and not come back to this thread until I have my headers fitted and a custom tune done!

That was easily the 4th time I had flashed it. Every other time it didn't seem to complete right, but would add in a recovery step and it *looked* correct. This time it went through start to finish no issues. Whew.

Yeah looks like the firmware update process is a little dodgy still. I guess the PCV is still only about a year old and Dynojet haven't got their code running clean enough yet. Which isn't really acceptable, but it is what it is.

A higher octane rated gas (OK, petrol), in no way contains more energy.

True - but the fuel I'm talking about - irrespective of its octane rating - is denser. Here's an interesting document from Shell themselves that proves it: Shell Optimax and motorcyles

Is it possible that your running such a high octane rating that your ignition system is hot enough for complete combustion causing the autotune to think the bike is running richer than it really is ?

That's also a possibility. Time to run this tank dry and go back to regular 91 RON (87 octane).

For a bit of a laugh, I fitted a switch to enable/disable Autotune this afternoon. I'll test it out tomorrow - should be a hoot.

If you have to take 20% of fuel out of a mixture to get to 13.7, then that means the starting mixture was 11.3? That don't sound right.

It could be because I'm running 98 RON octane. It's what you would call 95 I believe, and at least here in Australia it is a denser fuel which results in a richer mixture per injector pulse/charge.

Putting in the 98 was probably a dumb idea for the stock target AFRs. Only time and experience will confirm that though.

Because these maps are for bikes that have the O2 sensors disabled and don't have Autotune (PCIII), they are rich so that Dynojet doesn't get blamed for melting down a motor. With Autotune, those numbers will (should) be leaner. With differences in Map sensors, pressure regulators, temp sensors, and throttle position sensors (all analog devices), these reading will vary between bikes, no two the same.

I've done some Internet-digging and found some forums frequented by tuners. They're saying that they see negative double digit trim values all the time, especially with the AFR values in the range of 13.7-13.8 which is where mine is leaning the heck out of itself. Add the fact that I've got a zero map in, and the -20 values make a lot of sense.

The general advice from the tuners seems to be this:

• Get your base map sorted
  
• Get a performance AFR table put into the PCV
  
• Do a few runs to get the best on-road readings and roll the trims into the base map
  
• Fit a switch to the PCV to enable/disable autotune manually
  
• Put your economy AFR table into the PCV
  
• Go riding, and use your switch to flick between your base map and the trim tables as and when you want economy
  
• Never roll the trims into the base map when using the economy AFR table
  

After that, I guess I'm going to have to talk to someone, since I still get no afr/temp anything but rpm on my gauge panel.

It's just wierd that I had the exact same problem as you and rectified it with another firmware upgrade attempt. I'm not sure why yours is still stuck in this situation, and I think it's time to call Dynojet. Tell them that you had firmware 1.2.0 and upgraded to 1.4.0 to get the temperature readings to work, but now nothing works.

The stock map with a 'disabled' O2 circuit, is rich and the Autotune is trying to fix it by leaning it out. Look at a stock Dynojet map for a 6th gen, and you'll see neg numbers in those same areas, where most other areas are positive.

That being said, I'd say your numbers are a little too lean. By about 5% or so. I'd double check all the stuff I listed in my earlier post, including the sensor test. Is you're air filter in good condition? Have you seen the posts where the rats nest in them?

Well, the bike also felt like a bag of crap at those rpms too. Like it just had the *wrong* mixture. By changing so much on my bike at once I think I have opened a can of worms. See, I cleaned and re-oiled my K&N air filter on the weekend too. Maybe I over-oiled it and the bike is running rich. Or maybe not? I've basically changed too many variables at once and probably need to sit back and have a think about it all. But I'm an impatient bastard, which doesn't help.

UPDATE: OK, checked the air filter. Definitely not over-oiled, if anything could do with a touch up in a couple of spots if I was being pedantic. Also checked my spark plugs, just for laughs, and they have a nice healthy colour to them with good electrodes (they are about 40,000km old)

Also I checked a PCIII map for a 2002 VFR (with O2 eliminators) and it was richened up in the cruise area (4-5,000 rpm, <=20% throttle), not leaned out. So I'm not sure if you're right about it being rich by default there.

Hey folks, I've been tinkering with the Autotune again. I have zero map, along with the target AFR tables taken from the Dynojet map for the 2009 VFR with staintunes.

I did one ride to work. Check out the trim table for fifth gear as it tries to hit an AFR of 13.7:1.

Autotune fifth gear trims on zero map after 1 session

Check out around 4,000rpm and 10-15% throttle - the Autotune is making big adjustments towards a leaner mixture. This is with 98 octane (high density and therefore richer) fuel and with my cleaned injectors. I must be running somewhere around 12:1 at stock!

Either that or the zero map isn't really zero and it's doing stuff I'm not expecting.

thanks for the write up and posting your experiences.

I have a gutted cat and PCIII, any potential benefit from fitting the 12 hole injectors to a 5th gen? increased fuel atomization? better power or more economical mileage?

How about adding an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator while in there?

carver

Nah mate, there wouldn't be a lot of difference. These things are minute changes, not big ones.

Since you already have the PCIII, you already have a tunable fuel pressure regulator - it's the PCIII itself! All it does is richen or lean out the mixture, which is all that a modified pressure regulator does (and the regulator can't be tuned for different revs and throttle positions).

Basically you've got yours as nice as she can get, unless you don't have a custom tune yet.

Well, I managed to fix my problems with the PCV not showing fuel changes. My Autotune arrived on Monday, so last night I fitted it and threw all caution to the wing by loading up GPM's map - warts (trim) and all, and just rode the damn thing.

First up, it ran pretty well. But bugger me - you can feel the Autotune doing its thing for sure!

Well folks, it seems that GPM's map is way off the mark for me after all. The longer I rode it, the worse my bike felt - particularly at cruise. Looking at the trim tables, there were "-20" entries all over the place. Trying to get to the target AFR values just kept hitting the maximum trim value and sitting there. I'm guessing this is when the bike started to feel like crud.

My clean injectors keep biting me, it seems! I've zeroed out the map again and I am now going to try and trim a zero map. Just watch - I'll probably throw in the towel tomorrow and just zero the whole thing out until I get my headers fitted and a custom tune done!

2002 huh, wasn't that around the time that VFRD came into being? Were you on the 'big list' prior to that?

Nah, I do remember the list though, and I also remember some other V4 yahoo forum. Did it combine with VFRD in the end?

Bastige!!! :warranty:

Why me Bastige? :laughing6-hehe:

On another note - I just bumped past 1,000 posts! Pretty tame for a guy who has been a member since 2002!

For the front cylinders, it's lather, rinse, repeat, though you will have to loosen the oil cooler to access the cylinder head cover.

FYI, this is not required on 6th-generation VFR's. However, you need to bend the horn up out of the way to get an 8mm socket in there.

Also, I could not remove the reed valve screws on mine. They do not use a bolt and nut method of retaining the reed valve, but rather a phillips head screw which basically refuses to back out, even with the use of an impact screwdriver; the metal is so soft the head of the screw just strips.

The solution for me was to get out my angle grinder and grind down the screw thread and reed valve plate until it was so thin that I could just prise it off with a pair of pliers. I had to do this for all reed valves! You need to be careful not to grind the rubber gasket too much though... :warranty:

Kal, what are the implications in Oz of fitting a supercharger, from a legal and insurance point of view? Here in Noo Zilund, I don't think there'd be any legal issues, but it might make it difficult to get insurance.

Good lord, I haven't gotten to the *sensible* phase yet! Legally, I can get an engineer's certificate (it's quite common). Insurance-wise I'd have to go through Shannons insurance, and probably ask for a dollar amount to be insured.

They might balk when I tell them it's a daily rider though. Hmmmm.

Truth be told I was thinking of going to 3rd-party cover anyway, as basically any crash and she'll be a write off.

Well, I managed to fix my problems with the PCV not showing fuel changes. My Autotune arrived on Monday, so last night I fitted it and threw all caution to the wing by loading up GPM's map - warts (trim) and all, and just rode the damn thing.

First up, it ran pretty well. But bugger me - you can feel the Autotune doing its thing for sure!

I should post my trims and stuff to see how different my trimmed map is to GPM's, given the mileage differences and my cleaned injectors.

I'm stoked though. STOKED.

I'm getting 0s. I'll push on the connector again. When I looked at "about" it did show that it saw a wideband, and the status says 2 devices.

Don't fret too much mate - I've just discovered my PCV is showing everythig *except* fuel adjustments. It shows RPM, throttle, gear, engine temp, AFR, and duty cycle. But no matter the map, it's showing fuel adjust as zero.

Freakin' bizarre. I had trouble upgrading to version 1.4.0 too, and had to do it a few times. Fark, maybe I need to do it *again*.

Anyone know if you can downgrade firmware to 1.3.0? And if anyone has a copy?

Do you still need the powercommander now ? With the increase in fuel i would have to try it with out it.

Yes, I think the Powercommander is still worthwhile. There may be spots in the fuel map where we actually want to *lean* the mixture out rather than richen it. Remember, Honda built their map for power, economy, and the environment and had to take a guess on making the map work for motors in various altitudes. A powercommander lets you tune the mixture just for power, just for economy, or heck, just for the environment if you want. And it will be correct for YOUR motor and exhaust, and air filter, and fuel you run.

Add an Autotune into the mix with a custom map, and it gets even more accurate over time.

Anybody know how many holes are in the 5th gen injectors?

One big one! Toro was saying that they clog up less than the new ones.

Kal... am I wrong in assuming you've removed the reed valves and such??

I've only blocked them off at the moment - I have a set of PAIR valve blockoff plates coming soon.

Any idea if higher octane fuel will reduce the clog? here in sweden we have a minimum of 95 octane and i usually use our 98 option both on car and bike.

Technically the 98 octane fuel usually contains additives which are designed to keep fuel systems clean by breaking down any collected deposits.

The biggest thing which affects your injector condition though is usually how often the bike is ridden. Short trips are worse, long term storage is worse.

I ride my bike every day, in any weather, all year round. It only ever gets 91 RON (87 AKI in America), and my injectors had good spray patterns but reduced flow. I guess that means the nozzles were OK but further up inside the injector it had been restricted.

kaldek, why did you feel the need to do the "cleaning"?

How many miles on your bike?

128,000 kilometres, or about 79,500 miles.

What fuel do you typically use?

Always what you would call regular 87 octane.

Had you tried other methods of cleaning fuel system prior to this service? If so, what? I most often use Chevron gas, and have run Seafoam and other stuff in the fuel as stabilizer and cleaner.

Not really. I wasn't trying to fix a problem specifically, but rather making sure that all the farkles I just put on my bike (Powercommander V with autotune, motad headers) were able to be as effective as possible. And, that when the supercharger kit is available I'm less likely to melt pistons through clogged injectors causing lean running and excessive pre-ignition.

I have a relatively high mileage 5th gen and am wondering if this sort of service is necessary. Not sure if my local Honda shop is capable but there are probably f.i. specialists who could do it.

It could well be flowing less than stock. "Necessary" is something you have to decide for yourself, but if the engine runs fine and you like the mileage you get per tank, then I would say it's not "necessary". However if you have a Powercommander with a custom tune and want the most power from your engine, your custom tune might be getting slowly worse as your already dirty injectors get dirtier.

It does however mean that anyone with a custom Powercommander tune would need to go and get another custom tune done though!!

cleaning injectors? you do know gas is considered a solvent right? gas runs through them to run the engine so whats the difference?

Picture this: it's a hot day, you've just been for a long hot ride and you pull up in your garage. You switch the engine off and walk away to go get a beer.

Meanwhile the heat soak from the engine causes the fuel in your fuel rails to evaporate, leaving behind goop which turns into varnish, and clogs the injector a little bit. Repeat this over time, and add in you leaving the bike to sit over winter. The result is an injector with a poor spray pattern, causing poor burning and reduced power, lean running and possibly pinking, and eventually engine damage.

Dirty injectors cause a lot more problems than you think. One of the VFRD members had a piston melt on him not long ago from a clogged injector.

Folks seem to be happy spending $20+ on repeat "injector cleaner" treatments for their bike, but aren't willing to spend $150 on a solution which actually works. Which is the better option? I know what I'd rather do from now on!

Those are "cushions."

Hmm, the manual calls them "sealer rings", and the ones just below the O-ring it calls "cushions".

Anyway, when I get round to updating this post with my pics as well I'll put more corrections in.

Greetings one and all,

This is a guide on having your fuel injectors on your VFR800 cleaned. It is specific to the 6th-generation VTEC model, but should be almost identical on a 5th-generation VFR.

I will build this post up in stages, starting with just my videos and the increase in flow rates from the cleaning, followed later by the pictures. So let's get into it.

The first thing we need to do is remove the fuel tank. Best to get this sucker as empty as you possibly can before removal, as when you loosen the banjo bolt from the fuel pump and the fuel return line whatever is in the tank is going to come out as fast as it can. Next up is removal of the airbox, which has been covered many times before so we won't repeat it.

Make sure you don't put your fuel in a container of contaminated fuel - put it in something clean and dry. You really don't want your bike to run like crap AFTER you clean your injectors. :laughing6-hehe:

We're really getting into it when we remove the fuel rail. You need to remove the injector electrical plugs first. The "latch" on these connectors is on the under-side. Once you have done that, you can remove the four 8mm bolts and gently and slowly lift the fuel rail away. If an injector comes with it, hold the injector down while you gently lift the fuel rail off it. It will pop slightly as it slips past the O-ring on the injector.


Removing the fuel rail. Red first, green second!

The fuel rail itself is made up of a few pieces. Don't twist it or wiggle it about or you may damage the O-rings keeping the pieces sealed under fuel pressure.

The fuel rail is essentially two pieces joined together by a pipe. The pipe is only secure by O-rings, so unless you want to replace those too, don't go yanking the fuel rail around and damaging them!


You need to pull those injectors out nice and slow so you don't lose any rubber bits down into the guts between the V of the motor, or into the motor itself!

Injectors removed and waiting for servicing

Check out the injector nozzle.

They weren't kidding when they said the 6th-gen has 12-hole injectors


On the injector, the most likely part which will need replacing is the large rubber grommet you can see here near the electrical connector. It's a dust seal, and gets crushed by the fuel rail. Mine had degraded a fair bit, but the nice injector cleaning man said he had plenty of those in his stock.


When all the injectors were off, the injector cleaning guy put them on his ASNU injector diagnostics rig handily mounted in the back of his van. All he needed was some mains power, and we were off.

And the results - a 7% increase in flow (but see below for the hidden problems with my injectors I discovered later):


Injector cleaning flow report


Before leaving, the cleaning guy replaced the filter in each injector as part of the job. I replaced the upper O-rings myself from Honda stock (Part code 91301-P7A-004 on all 6th-gen VFRs regardless of year. You'll need 4!)

Finally I installed the cleaned injectors back into the bike. I lightly lubed all seals and O-rings with a smidge of clean engine oil (as per industry recommendations) to ease insertion. As they say, you can never have too much lube!

Clean injectors, installed and ready for the fuel rail.


Update: Problems with my injectors!

It turns out my injectors were corroded and cleaning them has lifted goop out of the "pits" left by the corrosion, causing leaky injectors!

This is not the fault of the clean - one or more of the injectors were beyond help and living on borrowed time. My only option was to replace my injectors with a matched set which all have the same flow rate.

Really stupid question. I can't find anywhere what the lights on the Autotune mean.

Edit: ok, I see its one light that is red. Should it stay on steady?

And another edit. I can't seem to get an AFR reading. I'm actually not getting engine temp either, but that could be my wiring.

What could I be missing? I removed and reinserted the wires into the autotune, but they seemed to have a good connection. I have the terminator on the Autotune (none on the PCV).

Thoughts?

You need to upgrade your firmware on the PCV to 1.4.0. We were discussing that in this thread only two days ago!