kaldek

Ahh Professor Frink. Is there a smarter man on Earth? I think not!

Add in the pump that you are also running and what I'm seeing is a motorcycle that is less efficient than it was before. A motorcycle that has less power than it did before. And a motorcycle that is mechanically more complicated and argueably less safe than it was before.

harsh. give him a chance to tidy things up and come back with some real results.

Or just go and read all the scientific papers that clarify HHO gas is pseudoscience waffle.

Sorry to be so uninformed but what do the Pair Valves do?

PAIR stands for Pulsed Air Injection Reed valve. It is a valve which sucks air from the airbox into the exhaust system when you are decelerating, and sometimes when idling. What it does is cause any unburnt hot gases to burn (or at least change chemical composition). It is an emissions thing to reduce nasties.

The reason folks disable it is to either merely avoid the popping and burbling when you decelerate, or to make their power commander tune work better. Particularly if you have an autotune module, the opening of the PAIR valve would cause the oxygen sensor to make fuel trim adjustments which are wrong and cause the bike to have a poor air/fuel mixture temporarily.

Honda Australia have advised customers with stock factory bikes in some cases to fit restrictors in their PAIR valve hoses, as some people have had throttle control issues due to the PAIR system. I personally never had that problem.

Do the pair valve block off if you’re running a PCV with Autotune. I just installed A&A Performance's plates and the difference was very noticeable.

Totally agree with that! The AFR gets completely messed up when the PAIR valves open, totally snorking the Autotune trim tables.

As kind of a side note here, on my '06 the PAIR solenoid never energizes after the bike gets warm (around 160 or so). After that, it just along for the ride. I actually connected a test light and rode around to figure this out (I also did this for the EVAP, but that's another tale). This would make sense because it's when the bike is cold that you have a bunch of unburned hydrocarbons. Adding a little oxygen would not only help continue the burning and use up some of those hydrocarbons, but this "extra" little camp fire will help heat up the CAT and O2 sensor. Besides, PAIR can't operate during close loop anyway. I would believe all 6th gen would operate this way and would be very surprised if 5th gen was any different.

Not sure if I agree with that. Popping from the exhaust on deceleration while the engine is hot was a common occurrence for me. Disabling the PAIR valves stopped that completely.

But your problems, very strange. Keep us informed.

Some ideas, though, if I may. Easy way to test if you are having MAP sensor issues, unplug it and start your bike - it's pretty obvious when that puppy has failed - but I would check all the vacuum lines under your airbox. Out of interest, what time of day are you commuting at? And more importantly, what is the air temp difference and traffic like? The runs good on the way to work, crap on the way home pattern has a hint of something more then a coincidence to it.

Maybe do a check over of your exhaust as well - the super lean-super rich switch back you are having with the autotune, maybe something is impacting exhaust flow (causing autotune to go nuts in the process)?

Maybe something you pulled apart with your recent maintainance hasn't sealed properly and is causing a vacuum leak? Whats your fuel consumption like? Speaking of vacuum leaks, T-join into the vacuum line heading to the MAP sensor and slap a vacuum gauge on there - what are the readings like? That's a quick and easy diagnostic tool that wont cost you anything.

Just as an update, I have another thread going which describes my problems getting worse. I'm at the point now of investigating my ignition pulse generator wiring and the pulse generator itself. Another member had similar problems to what I'm seeing.

I don't the Wideband 2 gives you the same autotune capability as the PCV though. I believe the PCV is a closed loop system that adjusts the mixture based on the AFR in realtime - correct? The Wideband 2 measures the AFR and logs it, but doesn't adjust the fuel to optimize the AFR - at least that's how I understand it. Maybe someone out there has a better handle on this than I do.

Yes, the Autotune is basically a Wideband Commander 2 hooked into the PCV. The PCV is what performs the dynamic fuel adjustment based on the data from the Autotune signal.

This would be a good device to have on the Supercharged motor, with customised AFR entries set to nice and safe numbers when under boost. An advantage of this would be if your fuel was of poor quality for some reason and you suddenly started to run lean, the Autotune could fix it by sending more fuel before you damaged the motor. There is a flipside to this however, in that a failure of the Autotune could possibly result in a dynamic adjustment to LEAN mixture. The risks would really be about the same as driving a factory boosted engine though, so I consider it low risk.

Actually, you can reduce the risk even further by setting a maximim enleanment value in the Autotune to a very low number - maybe even zero. This would mean the Autotune is allowed to richen the mixture beyond what your custom map says, but is not allowed to lean it out.

You CANNOT sync the starter valves when the MAP sensor is connected and working!

NO - If you do the procedure as laid out in the manual you will have no trouble adjusting idle. If the manometer balance is off for the 4 starter valves when you first hook it up you just set them equal to the non adjustable valve, the idle speed will fluctuate as you do this YES. The basic balance will be preserved as long as you dont go banging around too much. The problem lies with trying to adjust balance and idle speed at the same time, if your trying to get the idle set at the same time your adjusting each starter vavle indivdually of course it will be difficult.

Hang on a second - what vacuum line is your MAP sensor connected to while you're doing the adjustment? The MAP sensor connects to a 5-way joint, and you remove all four feeds from that joint to hook into the balancer/manometer.

Hi folks, I recently did my starter valve synchronisation on my '02 and have some notes to add.

First up, when I did this initially two weeks ago it coincided with my Stator frying itself and my main fuse B holder melting, so I was somewhat distracted.

Anyway when I fixed all that up and took the bike for a ride it was running like a bag of spanners - it wouldn't hold a steady idle, the idle speed was ALL over the place, and eventually it was jerky and snatchy like never before - picture the usual VTEC surging and multiply that by ten and you'll know what I mean.

I thought that being distracted by the Stator problem had made me sync the bike incorrectly, but what had actually happened was one of the vacuum lines had slipped off the number three intake tract! The MAP sensor must have been getting completely crazy readings and causing the ECU to go completely nuts. This explained why the bike was crap at small throttle openings, and OK at WOT; the MAP sensor is not used by the ECU for large throttle values.

After fixing that with some new vacuum hose cut to length and hooked up, I thought I was a real smart bloke by hooking my MAP sensor up to the flapper valve vacuum hose so that the MAP sensor was working while I was doing the valve sync (and therefore not giving me any FI codes).

Folks, it turns out that's a bad idea. You CANNOT sync the starter valves when the MAP sensor is connected and working! As you adjust the starter valves, the vacuum reading changes and the ECU starts messing with the idle speed, which messes with the vacuum readings, which causes you to twiddle with the start valves, which causes the vacuum reading to change, which causes the ECU to mess with the idle speed again! An endless loop of misery...

In short, disconnect your MAP sensor vacuum hose, plug the flapper valve vacuum hose with something, and just let the ECU go into a limp home mode. Then, and only then will you be able to have the bike hold an idle you set it while you adjust the starter valves! And when you're done, check to make sure the vacuum hoses to the intakes are taught and not able to slip off easily. If they do, replace them with some new vacuum hose.

The other thing to note is that if you start the bike with the MAP sensor electrically connected, but not to a vacuum hose, the bike will not want to run. You have to start the bike with the throttle cracked a bit and keep it cracked for up to 15 seconds until the ECU goes open loop. I think if you don't connect the MAP sensor to its electrical plug, this problem goes away. Regardless, you will get ECU error codes stored in diagnostic memory which you need to clear out after the job is done. This is needed because the error codes are errors which you are basically creating on purpose. If you have real problems later, you don't want red herrings in the system!

A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

I'm working on that option as we speak as I'm installing a PCV with Autotune on my 98. The PCV will work back to the 00-01 model years as a plug and play. Since the 98-99 don't have O2 sensors, I'm having a bung welded onto my header to accept the Bosch unit. The PCV's wire harness plugs into 98-09 without issue.

I hope to have results witin a week or two.

Oh so the injector/TPS connector harness is the same? That's good news!

I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

The VFR MAP sensor is only active at small throttle openings, after that it's a predefined map based on calculated engine volumetric efficiency (for a specific altitude/air density).

A better option would be an Autotune, but since they're not available for the 5th-gen it's somewhat of a moot point!

Autotune video uploaded - see post #111! (One hundred and eleven)

I should add folks, that probably the MAIN reason I've been capturing videos and evidence is because my bike has a mechanical problem at the moment which is causing Autotune to be alternatively good (sort of) and then bad.

My case in point:

• Rode to work yesterday with zero map and Autotune on - felt awesome
  
• Checked trim values - lots of massive negs (-20 or more) in lots of cells, and accepted all the trims into the base map
  
• Rode home with same settings - felt crap
  
• Tested bike on centrestand at cruise throttle, watched Autotune do massive enrichment (opposite to what the base map now said!), hit its enrichment limit and then blow out the AFR to 16:1 and lose revs
  
• Cleared out all trims and base map to zero again
  
• Noted that bike would hold revs and solid AFR at cruise throttle
  
• Rode to work today with no map, autotune disabled, felt great
  
• Rode home, got progressively worse - zero map, no autotune
  

Basically my bike is flip-flopping between running lean and rich - without the powercommander. If I save the trims into the base map when it's running rich, it runs crap when the richness goes away. What's causing it to run rich and then lean? I really don't know yet. I also don't know which of these is normal - is it broken when it's rich, or is it broken when it's lean?

Either way, the bike is going in for a full compression and leak-down test, and spark plug check/replacement over the weekend. I need to work my way slowly through the possible causes, and find the solution before I go anywhere near my custom tune.

Quick edit - I've just been reading the AA1car.com diagnosis web pages (they are BRILLIANT!) and getting a huge list of things to check, including vacuum leaks. A vacuum leak could result in both a bad MAP sensor reading (which could cause my problems) and also over-pressure of the fuel rail by the fuel pressure regulator. These are all very interesting things, because I don't have problems at high revs only low revs/low throttle which is where there would be vacuum present....

Verrrry interesting...

I have a video being uploaded to YouTube right now, but it's going to take about 8 hours to get there. I will update this post with the video when done!

Sounds good! Can you provide us with an executive summary as a preview?

Sure mate! Check for "KaldekBoch" on Youtube in a few hours. OK, so anyway I did the following:

• Cleared out all maps and trims to zero
  
• Sent the zero map to the bike
  
• Started the bike and let it run until the O2 sensor warmed up
  
• Monitored the AFR reading and the "Fuel" value - confirmed it as zero
  
• Set a value of 13.5 in the "0 throttle, 1250rpm" cell and sent the map to the PCV while the engine was running
  
• Activated my autotune by the switch I installed
  
• Watched the powercommander display immediately show negative (minus) fuel values and the AFR hitting the target of 13.5
  
• Clicked on "get table" to get the trim table from the powercommander
  
• Noted that the "0 throttle, 1250rpm" cell had a "-4" value in the trim table stored in the PCV memory
  
• Noted that the live "fuel" value was also -4 and the bike was holding 13.5 AFR at idle
  
• Turned off the Autotune
  
• Noted that the live "fuel" value went back to zero and stayed there, even though there is a -4 value for that throttle and rpm in the trim table
  

There's some fun stuff you can do with the bike on the centrestand - you can set some funky values in adjacent cells, and watch the PCV average the two of them when you move between cells, for one! This averaging reduces the overall accuracy of the Powercommander, and I wonder if in future they will add more cells to allow it to do less averaging. Certainly the addition of the 15% throttle column has surely helped!

Folks, I have just proven that when autotune is disabled, the trim tables are also disabled and ignored. So, if you have values in your trim table already and disable the autotune, the PCV immediately goes back to base map.

Here's the vid!

Ok, a bit of a type up of the effects of using a vacuum switch thus far - and already some new information to add to the PCV/Autotune puzzle.

I don't want to sound like I'm shooting you down in flames, but I just don't know if the vacuum-controlled switch is worth it. The Autotune trims FAST. And I mean REALLY fast - my tests with the bike running on the centrestand have shown it will do a -10 trim at the drop of a hat, and back again if it needs to!

Given this, it should just "fix itself" in short order rather than have bad trims lying around. Possibly you always see the bad trims because you have just decelerated and hopped off the bike?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the Honda map doesn't have different values based on cylinder (or rather, cylinder pair), but by having 2 O2 sensors it can make adjustments based on each pair in open loop mode. Unless you were trying to do something funky a cylinder pair's fuelling needs shouldn't be any different from the other unless there was some physical difference impacting on the AFR (eg. differences in the exhaust, blocked injectors, vacuum leak into the cylinder, etc).

Actually it does - all the material you can find confirms that at the very least, the front and rear cylinders have different maps, probably due to heat differences. Does anyone know/remember if the 4th-gen and earlier models have different jets on the rear bank of carbs? If that's the case it would be for similar reasons!

Ok, factory map, I have target afr and trim table. If I enable by gear for afr and fuel, I lose all afr targets. If I go back to basic, I don't get the targets back, I have to reload the basic map. Uh...???

Yeah it does that for everyone. The trick is to select the table you want, right-click and choose "select all" then "copy" and then when you go to gear advanced you paste that map into each gear's table. You need to do this for both the map and autotune target AFR tables unfortunately! The best way to do it is do one - fuel map or autotune - save the map, then do the other one.

Here's a spanner in the works.... I have an 09 model. Base map loaded on the PCV straight from Dynojet. Plugged it in...Runs as sweet as! No issues what so ever.Not using the Auto tune at all. Fuel econ is still good.Smoothed out the Vtec that's for sure :pinocchio:

Nah not a spanner mate, probably more like the norm. It's just muppets like me with high mileage bikes bucking the trend I reckon!

Totally makes sense, thanks. What's the per cylinder for then, the v-twin with two sensors, I guess?

Harley-Davidsons, mainly! It's why they have the AT-100 autotune kit with two O2 sensors in it.

And maybe race bikes looking for the sweetest custom tune possible.

Its an 08, so that question stands. :-) I knew I wanted gear, but am unsure about gear + cylinder.

Temps on the laptop match those on the LCD, so seems close enough. I stole some values Codewriter had in another thread. Thanks!

No, you don't want gear+cylinder. The Autotune is only monitoring two of four cylinders anyway.

What the powercommander will do by default is apply the percentage rich/lean values in each table to each cylinder individually.

For example, let's make up some numbers for a laugh and say that at X throttle and X rpm, the Honda ECU sends a value of "11" to cylinder #1 and "13" to cylinder #4. If your Powercommander has a value of, say, "10" for that same throttle and rpm location, then the result would be that cylinder #1 ends up being "21" and cylinder #4 ends up at "23".

So, only if the Honda ECU was making *wildly* different entries to each cylinder would a per-cylinder map have any value. Certainly your Autotune can't trim for it as there's only one autotune and four cylinders! A dyno tuner would have to put O2 sensors up *each* header pipe in order to tune for each cylinder, and even then your Autotune would only screw tha base map up because it's getting averaged values from two cylinders.

I've completely made up the numbers here of course, it's just an example.

I know I said I would piss off from this thread, but I just couldn't stay away. I decided to not be afraid of my "-20" trim values I saw and decided to just drop in a zero map, some decent AFR tables, enable the Autotune and KEEP RIDING, MOTHERF***ER.

So anyway after four rides....I think it's bloody working.

Check out what my fuel table has in it after accepting 4 session's worth of trims. Whacky stuff, but the bike at the moment feels rather nice. :unsure:

4th session after trims accepted

It would be safe to say that my bike was running RICH AS A B*TCH after I had the injectors cleaned.

You watch though. I'll ride home tonight and she'll probably run like crap!! :fing02:

My question: Under advance/demote, what are you using for Fuel table and Target AFR? I know I want to be at gear advanced, but cylinder and gear for fuel and gear for afr, or???

If your bike is a 2002-2005 model, you don't need gear advanced. "Basic Fuel" and "Basic AFR" are all you need, as only the 2006-2009 models have per-gear ECU maps. I had my '02 configured with "gear advanced" and it was AWFUL, because it just took ages for the Autotune to learn anything due to me shifting gears all the time (do note however that I have been trying to trim my way out from a zero map!!). However for 2006+ owners, it's a demon they have to live with until their system trims itself out over a longer period of time.

I'm waiting 120 sec, and I set temp @ 90, maybe should be higher?

Have you calibrated your engine temps yet? Note that the calibrated values provided by GPM are for centigrade, not fahrenheit.

For now, disable the engine temperature checkbox for the Autotune and just go with the 120 second delay. Go for a ride - you will get trim values even within a few minutes!

To confirm the engine temperature stuff is working, you need to run the bike on the centrestand with the laptop connected, and make sure that the temperature reading in the Powercommander software shows up correctly, otherwise the temperature reading may never hit the value you have set in the Autotune.

Here is the best way to go about your temperature calibration:

• Put bike on centrestand
  
• Connect a multimeter to the negative battery terminal and the temperature wire which is connected to the powercommander
  
• Set the multimeter to measure in the 2000 millivolts range
  
• Write ten temperature values on a piece of paper, starting at the top from 198 and working down to 98
  
• Make sure the bike is cold, and start her up
  
• Let the bike run and begin to heat up
  
• Each time the temperature on the dash hits a value on your piece of paper, note the reading on the multimeter next to it
  
• Note that once the bike his 168 degrees, it will take a fair while to get up to 198 (because the coolant has to heat up)
  
• Keep this up until you have all the values from 98 to 198 written down
  
• Enter all these values (the temperatures and their respectice voltage readings) into the temperature calibration fields in the powercommander software
  
• Let the bike cool down completely
  
• Remove the seat, plug the laptop into the powercommander and leave it running on a stool or table nearby where you can see it
  
• Start the bike back up, let it warm up and make sure that the temperature shown on the dash matches (within a few degrees) the temperature shown in the powercommander software.
  
• Set your autotune to enable at 160 degrees (just below where the thermostat opens), and go riding!
  

The reason I don't like to enable my Autotune higher than the temperature where the thermostat opens, is that on cold days the bike will run right around that temperature and it's possible that your Autotune could flip-flop between being enabled and disabled. This would probably not feel good!

Really nice bikes you've got there, zroyz. I plan on starting up a new thread any day now to cover the build-up of the 6th-gen kit. It's coming. It's definitely coming.

:rolleyes:

Well here I go Dan - time to let the folks out there hear about my results. I just finished installing Toro's supercharger on my '99 and the results are amazing!! My baseline run on the Dynojet at Redline Motorsports in Calgary with PCII, Micron slip-on, K&N and de-snorkelling was 98.51 HP. My "after" run with Dan's #1 map was 157.8 HP. My final run after fine tuning by Ben at Redline was....wait for it...173.60 HP !!! On the exact same dyno the new BMW S1000RR recently made 168.77 HP in full-on "slick" mode. Yup, my little Veefer has the new Uber-Beemer covered by 5 HP!! Sweet.

:blink:

That's all I can say!!!