Baileyrock

Don't tell anybody but STP filters and Walmart filters are both made by Champion Labs.  Guess who makes the Mobil-1 and Bosch filters everybody raves about?  Yep, Champion Labs.  Shhhhhh, don't say anything.  Let them buy those $8-12 filters when we can get ours for $2-5.   

Doesn't mean there using the same filter medium in every filter though ! :idea3:

:P

You guys change your oil filters ? :idea3:

By the way, what type of oil do you use ? :P

:lol:

I'd rather discuss the Japanese schoolgirls....... :salesman:

:idea3:

:joystick:

Actually, I should've said the sprung weight of the bike.? So, include the bike plus rider, minus the weight of the wheels & tires, brakes, rear spindle and sprocket, half the weight of the swingarm and suspension components, etc.? So, that would make a 50 lb heavier rider increase the sprung weight somewhere around 10-12%.

:blink:

You are out there my friend, What are you smoking David ? :lol: Not that your not correct either!

But hey, I'm just guessing at everything too!

Actually, I'm just using the same formula everyone(Pros) uses to select spring rates. Like on my VFR with a stock spring rate of 15.3kg for whaterever rider and bike, now add a 195 lb rider and the Experts recommend a 19kg spring ! You tell me what % increase in rate that is ? :idea3:

That is the same formula I applied here to Trace's shock.

BR,

According to Racetech, the stock 954 is 14.6 (whereas you said 14.3, no biggie).  But oddly enuff, their website's "spring engine" show springs from 13 to 15, no higher. Of course, that must mean that the stock 954 shock can't handle any more spring...one can assume.  They show springs for 5th Gens from 6.7 (!) to 16.1.  So what did Penske put on this shock that I bought from FotoMoto last September?  Wellllll....I follow your logic and I hope your right.  I do know that that shock/spring made a very nice difference.  Smooth, comfortable, positive motion.  No harshies, no bouncies, no bottoming (even two-up), ...I don't really even think about it being there, which is good!  :thumbsup:

Anyway, let's hope your assumptions are right and that I stay just below 200 lbs!!

Yah, 14 something, .3kg is like 16 lbs.

Race tech sucks :P

Of course MY logic is better than RaceTech's

Didn't Doug know what spring it had or were there any numbers on it ? :beer:

Certainly the subject of F/R spring rate balance is a good one.  I don't know the exact spring rate in the used Penske I bought, but I have reason to believe it's 15.5, as it was intended for a cbr954rr with a 210 lb rider.  So....that means my .95 aftermarket front springs are not "balanced" from a percentage of increase stiffness aspect.

Hey Trace, I would offer a guess that your Penske came with a 18 kg spring for these reasons.

You say it's for a 954, OK stock 954 spring rate is like 14.3 kg and I would guess that Honda thinks the avg. rider is 160-170 lbs. You with me ?

Now you say it was set up for a 210 lb rider. Based on 170 lb factory, that's 25% heavier than stock. 25% stiffer than the stock spring (14.3 kg) is 17.87 kg which is at least how much they should have increased the rear spring rate, for racing it could easily be more. If 160 is what Honda thinks is avg. then it's a 19 kg.

So I would think your pretty close to the proper spring rate if you weigh less than 210 or so. IMO!!!!!!!!!!! :beer:

:P

  Baileyrock.

    Do you think the stock shock is good enough to just respring? Should I get decent results with the stock valving  on the shock and a higher rate spring? All this is assuming the rear is as bad as the front was. The rear shock doesn't look like its worthy of putting money into. Did you ever have your stock shock revalved and if so how was it? Right now an aftermarket shock is out of the question for me. Some day it would be nice to put one on though. I gotta tell ya. Looking at my KTM's White power shock makes the showa look like garbage.

No in general, without any adjustments and adding a 200-250 lb stiffer spring should throw the already poor valving into a frizzy!

I would suggest trying a F3 or F4 stock shock with a different spring (1000-1100 lb) to go with your fork springs and hope you can get acceptiable valving with the factory adjustments. I think I would be more worried about not having enough rebound to control the stiffer spring, but it could be close and still much better than stock IMO. That would be the cheapest route.

The next step is to watch for a Fox, Ohlins, Penske on eBay for a F2,3,4 and change springs again.

I'm using a Ohlins for a CBR F3 (eBay $300) w/19 kg spring and it seems to have no problem covering the stiffer spring within it's adjustments. Ohlins USA said they have never had to re-valve on of their shocks to cover the range of springs that might be needed for it's application. There's basically 30 clicks on both Comp & Rebound.

The OEM oil setting is 130mm.  The standard thinking is if you have too much spring, reduce the oil (like 130mm+ height).  If you want "more spring", you add a little oil (less than 130mm height).  Of course, there must be some solid upper and lower limits to this, like + or - 10mm or so?  Dunno.

So mebbe your 140 is fine with your 1.0 spring @ 170 lbs.  I will prolly go to 128 or so, to reduce the air volume and thus add a little more "spring".  Like I said.....it's all voodoo!!  :beer:

I don't know what it is number wise, but tuners say just enough oil to cover the damper tube when compressed is the low limit and is basically where you should start. Then if your forks bottom on a test ride, start adding 5-10mm of oil at a time until it no longer bottoms out or rarely does. :thumbsup:

I'n still trying to anylize in my head what the suspenion is doing and where it is lacking. If anything I think I should have gone stiffer on the rebound stack. I'm not quit sure but I think it's borderline bouncy on the slow shaft speeds. You know, the under 30 MPH small consecutive bumps. A few more miles should help figure what the adjustment will be.

Thanks for listening.

Sounds very familiar, after having my forks built by Aftershocks the front felt so much better in many ways, but strange or worse in some especially lower speed. Felt like the front was just bouncing across everything when just cruising, but improved as I quicken pace. This is how we started talking about Shim Stacks, I was planning on installing the F4 front end because I still didn't like the feel of the Re-done forks.

I found and was told by Phil (AS) that in order to maintain the bike balance and make that stiffer front end work right, I needed to increase the rear spring rate close to the same % as I stiffend the front which was 30%(.95). I fought the idea of a hard non-compliant stiff spring rear shock for over 4-5k miles and was ready to do the F4 swap when I decided I should try the recommended rear spring first which was a 19kg for my weight (195 lbs). It transformed the bike completely, it turns in better, holds a line better, does everything better and just Rails. I'm so much more confident on it now, it's amazing.

So what I'm saying is stiffen the rear spring close to what the front was (in my case I went 25%), stop playing with the front until you do because it will change everything. You will most likely use that last inch of travel without changing anything else.

Just Do It!

Here's the link to my"Transformed" post http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19943

BR,

I can see that POV, especially from a highly skilled and experienced suspension guy who knows how to tailor the mechanism to a very fine degree of control for a given situation. 

But I also see how the shims in the Racetech stuff can act to control flow in lieu of the more traditional orifice size.  That's why they're so big/tall compared to stock stuff.  In general, it seems to work for most average riders (like me).

What I REALLY think is the case is that Racetech has found a market niche that allows "tunability" for the non-expert (like me) while greatly increasing performance over OEM stuff.  They manage to do this with only relatively few products, having just a few valve sizes and lots of shim stacks "do the work" for a very large number of bikes and conditions.  Brilliant!  But I can also see how this Exotica For The Masses would get an unfavorable response from the real pros like Phil, etc.  The experts work both ends of the equation....tuned orfice sizes, tuned shim stacks.  Racetech only works one end...the marketable end.  Voila!! 

I liken it to this:  You can go to any speed shop and afford to buy roller rockers for your small-block Chevy, and they're MUCH better than factory stamped steel units.  Now you're feeling pretty racy, huh, now that you have  Exotica For The Masses?  Or....you could go to Jessel http://www.jeselonline.com/ and spend about a billlllliiion dollars and get a REAL roller rocker valvetrain that you have absolutely no real need for with your stock engine!  :salesman:    Same thing applies to musical instruments, stereo equipment, kitchen knives.....anything.  Marketing and pricing step-functions affect all consumers. 

How fast to you want to go?  How much money you got??

I agree completely and well said Trace ! :beer:

Everything can be made to work better than the one size fits all approach that Honda uses, as you say for the masses, even stock parts can be tuned for the each rider. I'm in no way saying there's only one way to improve what we have.

Ride on! :beer:

And the results are.........?

What voodoo and magic did you use to come up with your drilling sizes?? Did you mod any of the OEM shim stack?? Did you use OEM weight oil?

I'm planning on installing the full Racetech setup, so just curious of your outcome.

What several Suspension Geru's (like Phil AS) have told me that the Gold Valve ports are so big that they no longer perform one of the functions there are designed to do and that adds one more thing for the shim stack to control. The more areas the shim stacks have to control, the less effective they do it.

Many tuners will NOT use Gold Valves period, not that they can't improve the stock forks performance. These tuners and major suspension co. like Ohlins do not agree with this HUGE port method of controlling the forks action.

just what I here ! :P

which port does the fluid go through during compression?

It goes through four of the port holes in one direction and back through the other four going the opposite direction, plus any other bleed holes or whatever. :goofy:

It has to effect fluid dynamics in the forks, look at Race tech Gold Valves, you could pour a Volvo through their ports. Ohlins are much smaller, closer to the HMAS(honda) valves, but have a little larger ports like what he's doing here.

I think most people here including me don't have a clue what's going on in the forks! :goofy:

I know what your saying. Phil did an amazing job matching my front and rear. I am still running what he set for me at his shop as far as Rebound and Compression. The knowledge Phil has and the work he does is amazing.

Yah, he's great ! He tried to lead me, but I was not listening at first. He said you could try it (stock spring) which I did and wasn't happy and when I called complaining about the feel of the forks he said it's your soft rear spring. :idea3:

How much do you weigh, Baileyrock?

195 lbs. :idea3:

Boy was I wrong on my theory related to rear spring rate.

I had Phil at Aftershocks re-valve and re-spring my Vtec forks last summer and while I felt an improvement with the forks I wasn't happy with the bikes handling.

I installed a CBR Ohlins on the rear at the same time as the redone forks, but I did not increase the spring rate for fear of a horrendous ride and I thought that if I could get the proper SAG with the stock rate spring than everything was cool. As mentioned I wasn't really impressed with the set-up and was considering another complete front end swap to a F4i, but after another conversation with Phil I was convinced to try a heaver rear spring rate first in order to bring the bikes balance back closer to what Honda originally had.

Phil installed .95 kg forks spring and recommended 19 kg rear spring to maintain balance, so I ordered a 19 kg from Ohlins.

Today was my first ride with the new spring set-up and I haven't even set proper SAG or dialed in the shock yet.

Results, This thing is on Rails ! :goofy: Turns in better, holds a line better, does everything better. It has transformed the bike completely and I can only imagine how it will feel after I set Sag and spend a day on Comp. & Rebound settings.

Amazing !

straight numbers are 30% stiffer on the front springs (.74 to .95) Rear spring in now 25% stiffer (15.5 kg to 19.3 kg)

added from a newer post 10-19-07

Don't forget that with all this Forking around you guys are doing to the front that you need to consider increasing the rear spring rate to better maintain the bikes balance and get better performance from your forks too.

I first did the forks with valving & .95's and I installed an Ohlins on the rear with a stock rate spring, though it was an improvement it wasn't right.

When I finally installed the proper rear spring on the rear (19kg for my 200 lbs) it transformed both ends of the bike!!! fing02.gif

Turns out running a soft/stock rear spring with new stiffer screwed up feel on both ends because the stiff front transfered more weight to the already to soft rear making it feel worse and the stiffer front tended to bounce across many bumps and irregular surfaces instead of absorbing them.

I had a old post about it " transformed" don't know if it's still around, but consider stiffening the rear spring in close to the same percentage as the front and you'll be much happier.

(note if you just commute and don't hit the twisties you may never notice it) cool.gif

update 1/31/2010

After years of learning, reading and sharing set-up info mostly with Pete McCrary we realize that the ONLY way to achieve proper spring rates on out VFR's(or any bike) is by achieving BOTH desired FREE 7 RIDER SAG numbers! Rider sag numbers alone mean ABSOLUTELY nothing by them self in relation to determining correct Spring rates!

I plan to add real world spring rate numbers here from members who have done it the right way achieving desired Free & Rider Sag numbers!

I weigh 190 lbs and have a 19 kg(1065 lb) spring on a Vtec, I get the following numbers measuring by myself:

Free sag- 12mm

Rider sag- 32mm

These are real close for what I want, but I want to check it again check it again w/help to be more accurate.

So IMO if you weight 190 plus you'll need at least a 19kg spring to get close, I'll be trying a 20 kg real soon and post my numbers.

BTW I started w/a 850 lb spring on my Ohlins and had No free sag w/35mm rider sag.

BR

jasonsmith:

220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Numbers

(with full gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

* +

For reference, I'm all about corners(big surprise).....For me this is what I love most about riding.......by far.

Like minds my friend ! I've been using all three for years myself ! :thumbsup:

Ienatsch compiled a number of articles from his writing and editorial stints at Motorcyclist, Sport Rider, Sportbike, and Cycle World magazines in a 2003 book titled Sport Riding Techniques - How to Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety and Confidence On The Street and Track. The Pace is the last chapter. The book is a good read and I highly recommend it.

Agreed, I've read it and it's great ! :thumbsup:

I need to install these, Thanks ! :goofy:

Wow, I didn't realize that so many people were unaware of the Pace.

Bailey, maybe we should put a sticky/link or something for it on VFRD :goofy:

When I first read the Pace, I thought that it seemed like the smartest approach to riding sport bikes on the street.

The main group that I rode with was kind of attempting to do something along the Pace lines without actully knowing it, so when I discoverd the Pace it was like the Holy Grail :P  There it was...already written out etc.

I had ridden the balls out as fast as you can into the corner style and actually was finding, as well as the rest of our group, that at the end of the day, riding the Pace style was more fun and lees stressful that what we had been doing.

Do we ever get on it and deviate from the Pace...sure(the last run up Mulholland from PCH I made didn't adhere to the Pace) but the majority of the time we use the Pace as a general guideline for our group rides.

Lewis, when we did the VFRD group ride back a few months ago the Pace that I led us at especially on the way up with the large group was definitely on the slow side of our normal Pace. On the way home we picked it up more and that would have been like a "medium" Pace version. Our quick Pace is faster than that. We tend to fluctuate depending on how big the group is and or how experienced everyone is etc. as well as if any of the group has ridden together(especially with a Pace style ride) and adjust accordingly B)

As I mentioned in the other thread that Bailey was refering to, we've got some addtional little tricks that we've added to our rides in terms of getting the most out of sport riding(corners) and using a bit of strategy to allow us to run the majority of corners at speed while avoiding traffic.

Good idea, I'll see if we can link it some how !

Just curious Bailey. Do you always ride the pace? I like to, but find I usually ride in squid mode with my homies.

Oh sure, call me on that ! <_<

Actually, we stay below 85 mph 95% of the time, but there's this one sweet section on our loop were we just let it fly. :P

Thank you, Bailey. Had never read that before, but great stuff. Thanks.

The BS's , was the one who posted the link in another form, I just copied it !

I switched to the PACE several years ago ! :thumbsup:

Here's link to the "Pace"

http://canyonchasers.net/reference/the_pace.php

Thanks for the link The BS'r !

Man, this post is like 3 years too late for me.  I had my 30A fuse burn up long ago and already went through the issues of my headlights/display dying on me in the middle of a ride from a blown fuse.  I ended up taking of the front fairing, jiggling some wires, putting everything back together and now, no problems  <_< .  Never really found the issue but I'm guessing a bad gound in a wiring harness somewhere.  F-ing BS 

Some guys had the harness rub through the protective cover (insulation) and short out against the bike, sounds like this might be your problem.

Actually this post was several years old with some fantastic info, but was lost or deleted some time back and I have been trying to get it rebuilt again with the help on members. Very Slow process! :huh:

Do you care about remote comp/rebound adjust though?

I mess with the preload constantly, I've never really messed with my rebound once.  I set it like 1/8 turn higher then stock the first time I took the bike to the track and I've never touched it again.

It gets you a little more convenience then stock as you don't have to pull out any tools to adjust the rebound.

Me I'm just the opposite, I set the Sag once and never touch pre-load again. On the other hand I play with comp. on the remote quite often, I can just reach back and add or take out a few clicks. I may pull out a few clicks when I hit the highway or straighter section and click back in a little when I hit the twisties again.

It also offers less chance of over heating fade with the extra reservoir of goodies.

Once I get everything set-up right with my new spring and spend the time getting all the setting right, I may never really have to play with it again unless I do a track day or something. :P