Baileyrock

I will officially throw out a guess of 3-5/52 clicks, with 15mm free sag at 35mm rider sag. But were going to have to wait for a month or so.

Well my question then is, what happens if you lose 5 lbs, or ride without all the gear all the time? It seems that doesn't leave you much adjustment. I know I'm going to lose those last 10 lbs. real soon. :blink:

Maybe Baily/Pete can chime in on this. I would think you wouldn't want to go below 1/4-1/3 of the preload range, just to retain some flexibility?

If you get the proper spring rate right the first time, I don't think 10-20 rider lbs will Blow you out of the proper range vs running a spring several hundred pounds off or to soft on us heavier guys. :ph34r:

You'll easily have 40 lb swings on almost every ride with fuel weight alone! :fing02:

Here is a table that I've made using the calculations I've come up with:

Rider Weight Range vs. Shock Spring Rate (lb/in)

110-145lb = 1100lb/in

145-180lb = 1150lb/in

180-210lb = 1200lb/in

210-245lb = 1250lb/in

245-280lb = 1300lb/in

Jamie,

Where was the problem in the flawed spring rate calculator you were using before? I remember it coming up with extremely low numbers for the VFR rear spring.

The Modified formula seems much closer to what we've been seeing on the higher end, but an 1100lb spring for a 110 lb rider seems extremely high IMO even for a 145lb rider.

If you continued down the scale with that formula to the stock spring rate of 15.3kg(850lb), the formula would suggest the stock VFR was built for a One Pound Rider! :ph34r:

Something seems amiss here!

What are your thoughts on this?

BR

I talked to GP Suspension this morning and they assure me they don't use any calculators. They order the shock from penske and they fit the spring to it. They use sag #'s to determine the spring rate...Guess what i am getting a 1250 or 1300 depending on dyno results...Sounds like someone has a clue...

Dan

LOOKS LIKE THEY'VE BEEN LOOKING AT OUR THREAD! :blink:

Dan,

That's great to hear that there's at least one shop that seems to be doing it right and seem to support what Pete & I and now Jason have discovered, congrats on finding them. Your bike should feel Great! :ph34r:

BR

To all:

I will climb up on my soap box one more time.

You're spending $900-1300 for a Penske rear shock. You're spending $300-500 for a RaceTech/Sonic front end.

Spend $19.95 with Amazon.com and buy a copy of Andrew Trevitt's Sportbike Suspension Tuning and read it.

Pete

You da man Pete,

You are the one who sent me a copy of Trevitt's book and we've shared a shitzload of info, data and results for a long time trying to figure just what was important to proper bike set-up and spring rate calculations and just how vital Free Sag is to it. :fing02:

I also got a great deal on your spring inventory!

Keep Fighting to fight to help educate VFRD members one shock at a time! :goofy:

BR

You know the "Transformed Wow!" thread is one of the best threads going for info. Why don't we maybe add some setups to the front page or somewhere else that are working. We have the 3 of us so far with numbers that are 98% dialed in.

Thanks,

I'll look thru the thread and find your set-up info or you guys can just post it up in the "Transformed Wow" thread and I'll add it to the original post and keep adding info from any member who achieves the desired Free & Rider Sag number for all members to see.

That way like you said members can see real world numbers and almost ideal spring rates for our VFR's by rider weight. :fing02:

BR

Base on my weight of 250 pound ....

I guess I am just glad GP is doing my rear Penske Shock too.....

Dan

Dan,

Unless GP suspension happens to be using the one and maybe only accurate VFR spring rate calculator and comes up with at least a 1200lb rear spring rate, It will be wrong IMO and you won't be able to achieve the numbers you yourself posted for Free & Rider Sag.

If they come up with something light like a 900lb spring and re-valve the Penske for it, the valving will be off by the time you get around to installing the correct and much heavier spring. :sleep:

I'm not really talking about fork spring rate calculators as forks is forks

Where I see a consistent problem is with the VFR's rear spring rate calculators! I'm sure it's a simple problem in the dimensions someone has plugged into their calculators related to the rear rocker ration and all other parameters used, if you knew all the correct numbers you would think it would be pretty easy to build a accurate calculator. :sleep:

I'm sure if we were all on CBR's just about every calculator would be dead nut and they sell, race and build 100 fold more CBR's than VFR's, especially here in the states. :ph34r:

So besides trial and error there seem to be nothing for the do-it-yourself unless you use RaceTech or Sonic....Interesting

Dan

That's the point, who needs a calculator when you have members here who have done it right by Trial & Error and are providing accurate real world numbers and not some flawed calculator(for the VFR numbers only). :sleep:

As mentioned in other threads, I've seen spring rate numbers recommended to members here from just about every source out there World wide for a VFR (5th/6th gen owners) who weigh 190lbs that were from 800-1400 lbs. Who's right, there's only one correct rate and all the other calculators are flawed.

Actually you could probably be within the desired numbers with spring rates that are 50 lbs either side of ideal, maybe slightly more.

RaceTech has always been high on their fork spring calculator(IMO) and I'm not sure what happened to rear spring calculator as years ago they were Extremely High, now there Extremely Low for the VFR and both were wrong by real world numbers! :ph34r:

BR

Dan,

I have no idea who might have a good calculator for the VFR! I've yet to see any numbers supplied by any manufacture or suspension Pro that come close to the trial & error method Pete & I have been working on for years to achieve desired Sag numbers.

I forget what Pete has number and spring wise, but he's tried many springs to finally achieve the numbers he desired.

I weigh 190 lbs and have a 19 kg(1065 lb) spring on a Vtec, I get the following numbers measuring by myself:

Free sag- 12mm

Rider sag- 32mm

These are real close for what I want, but I want to check it again check it again w/help to be more accurate.

So IMO if you weight 190 plus you'll need at least a 19kg spring to get close, I'll be trying a 20 kg real soon and post my numbers.

BTW I started w/a 850 lb spring on my Ohlins and had No free sag w/35mm rider sag.

BR

Maybe I'm not thinking straight... but if he were after MORE free sag for street use, wouldn't that mean a SOFTER spring? if he uses a stiffer one it'll hold the bike up higher and sag less... or am I really going mad with so many exams?? :fing02:

Yeah, it's counter intuitive really, I think it's best explained in Trevitt's book, "Sportbike Suspension ..."

If your spring is too soft you end up having to crank in a whole bunch of preload to achieve desired Rider Sag, this results in a Topped Out shock w/no Free sag. A firmer spring requires less pre-load to achieve desired Rider Sag leaving free movement. Something like that! :fing02:

I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

Jason,

I don't think it's unsafe at all, hell there's hundreds of Viffer owners running Zero Free sag because they've cranked it all out with pre-load trying to get decent rider sag numbers with too soft or stock springs. :fing02:

I do think running zero free sag could be an issue in the right situation causing loss of traction or other negative problem.

Like I said your set-up is probably better than 90% of VFR owners out there you are right in there, I just think it could be slightly better with the 1200 lb spring and you don't even have to buy one. I'm really only suggesting the change because you already have the spring

BR

Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

Tossing this in from another thread.

View PostWistrick, on 30 January 2010 - 10:18 AM, said:

The rate of the spring is critical. If desired Rider Sag is 35mm and desired rider contribution to the sag is 15mm, then accordingly Free Sag should be 20mm. Any spring will give you 35mm of Rider Sag, given some preload position, but only one spring (rate) will also give 20mm Free Sag with the same preload position. In other words, given specific goal numbers, only one correct spring rate exists.

Dan

:fing02: So true Dan, this is the point Pete & I keep trying to get across to everyone! Most people think if you can get desired Rider Sag then the Spring is correct, but just as you've mentioned rider sag is meaningless for calculating correct spring rates w/o also having the desired Free sag numbers!

The other fact is that just because some Tuner or even Ohlins or Penske says you need "....lb spring" does Not mean it's the correct one unless you get Both the desired numbers for Free & Rider Sag! Elka sent many of our members new shocks with the wrong spring rates on them and now if anyone ever bothered to check the numbers they have found them to be wrong and are needing new springs! Of course a New Aftermarket shock will feel better than a stock VFR shock, even with the wrong spring, but you are paying for the correct spring rate and Most are Not getting it!

I've seen different Pro's suggest for our members VFR's rear spring rates from 800lb to 1400lb springs for the same 190lb rider! :blink: That's insane! There is only one correct rate for that rider on his VFR and every other spring rate recommendation is WRONG whether it's Ben Speis, Ohlins, Penske, Me or the best tuner in your country telling you so.

The ONLY way to know if the spring rate is correct is on the bike and checking both Free & Rider Sag, there is no other way!

I've said this in other threads, I think the problem is that most Pro's have a faulty spring rate calculator for the VFR model only and constantly come up with these bogus numbers. Almost always Too soft. :dry:

When replacing the bolt in the bottom of the forks, do I need to replace the copper washer or reuse the existing one? Opinions? :unsure: Looking at replacing fluid in the near future.

mine stayed stuck on the fork so I left it and reused it. It's all good.

I've never had an issue reusing them.

Thanks BR

I will check that link you posted out and fix that asap.

The connector I was refering to is a small plug in the wiring that is like a connection point of all the earth wires from different components in the front of the bike. I think then that from here the one wire maybe goes to the earth point. This is just a plug where 16 earth wires or so connect to, and inside plug is simply a bridge that connect them all together. Like I said - this plug had some serious corrosion and after cleaning it and properly seating the bridge plate again, all was well. Worth a look anyways if things turn south...

Thanks for this awesome website for proud VFR owners!

Yeah that is the grounding block which another member discovered a few years back, it's located on the left inside of the frame rail 1/2 or 3/4 the way along the engine or something like that. A plastic POS with all the green ground wises in it and only a few out going wires to the grounding point on the frame. :fing02:

I'm not sure what thread it's in, but someone covered it pretty well and it doesn't seem to be as common of a problem area.

BR

BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

Nope, but I was riding with no compression damping for a while. When I dialled in the rebound adjustment on the shock, I bcked off the compression damping to nothing, then rode on one of the nearby goat tracks at the same speed, same route each time, making one or two click adjustments on the rebound until it seemed to get worse, then went back to a previous setting.

That is the best way to do it and learn it IMO! :ph34r:

Currently the compression damping is at less than one-third from full soft. I did have it even softer, but found that when I was finishing turns the back tyre was spinning up on the exit, because it was compressing too readily as the torque loaded the rear spring, then extending again too fast.

"then extending again too fast" that is from Not enough Rebound!

Yeah, that's what I said meant. :huh:

Bailey Rock: as for the damping being at zero, no - I didn't do that. I can't do it with the front anyway, so I don't think it's gonna be super critical. I just bounced the bike a few times and checked the measurements several times to make sure it was consistent.

BTW - it's unbelievable how compliant the front end is. With the Ohlins oil, and the work that was done to make sure the internals were set up right (concentricity, checking components, etc.) there's almost zero stiction. I guess to give the Elka a fair go, I should really drop the rear swingarm and remove linkages etc and check everything's properly lubed and lined up. (I did remove the dogbone, check the bushes, lubed everything, but I wasn't a perfectionist like the Ohlins guy was.

Yeah, can't do anything about a non-adjustable front fork, but on the rear w/aftermarket fully adjust shock it's better to Not have any Damping interfering with your sag check. :unsure:

Avg. 3 measurements per end is a great way to go.

BTW have you just bounced on the back of your bike to check movement, then backed off comp fully and do it again?

That tells you what the spring alone feels like. It took me a while to realize I had my comp set too stiff for the longest time, when I finally backed it off a decent amount and let the spring work it felt much better.

Remember the Springs hold the bike off the ground, the Damping controls spring osolation(bouncing) and weight transitions.

BR

The last time I checked the numbers on my street 02 Vtec w/Ohlins shock and a 19kg(1065lb) spring I got:

Free Sag: 12mm

Rider Sag: 32mm

This is pretty damn close, but I'm trying the 1200lb spring this time on this Penske that was suppose go on the Track Vtec.

BR

He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

You can't ask for anything more! I look forward to seeing what he does & says. I would also like to know the number on your spring.

PS don't forget, when check sag you should basically have rebound/comp settings on zero(full soft) so that your only measuring Spring and not any effect of damping. :angry:

BTW I don't think there is, but is there any ratio difference between the 5th & 6th gen?

You don't have your bike lowered or have flipped the triangle plates have you?

There is another member TC who says he has great numbers with an F4i shock & 900lb spring.

BR

I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

I don't agree.

When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world.

You mention later that you have never checked Free sag and w/o Free sag the suspension just does Not work as it should.

I can just about bet that w/your 900lb spring and 30-35 mm of rider sag you have ZERO free sag.

OHLINS recommends 10-15 mm of FREE SAG along with 30-35mm rider sag on the rear.

The point I'm trying to make about correct numbers suggested by these experts are only related to VFR numbers which I feel most of the calculators their using have an error in it for the VFR only.

Is your expert an VFR expert or just using a faulty Calculator like most are using for the VFR and coming up with bogus numbers, I'm not saying these experts don't know what their doing, just do few VFR's and are using bad calculator formulas.

I'm sure there all Spot on with GSXR's, R1's, CBR's etc. because they do a million of them and everyone Races them, not the 1% of VFR's they do. :angry:

Also the problem with most people like us Joe riders is that we only set Rider sag and Not Free sag. Achieving proper spring rates for any bike/suspension combo can only be achieved by having not only the correct Rider Sag, but the correct Free sag too. Using these two numbers is the ONLY way to figure out if you have the correct spring rates!!!

You can crank enough Pre-Load into almost any spring and get Rider Sag numbers close to desired, but for anyone of ant weight 160-170 plus on a VFR you will NOT have any Free Sag which means the springs too soft!

Did your expert actually set the bike up for you or just provide a Shock with a spring on it?

I'll send you a dollar if you have any measurable Free sag w/a 900 lb spring on your VFR.

I am just getting more confused now. I picked up a Elka on the Super Group Buy 1.0. On my 5th Gen I went with a 3 way with Hydrolic preload. I spec'ed the rear shock with me being 200# naked. I wanted it firm but responsive(not harsh) and I have a full Givi set up with a Wingrack that I tour with. The Givi set up is not on except for long trips. I usually have a Givi hard tail bag right over the tail light. The Tech @ Elka emailed me to verify my weight and set up

Vlad called me and let me know what spring they put on my rear shock and its a 900# spring.

Sorry Vlad, must of missed Jasons name when we spoke, and thanks Jason for the link.

My rear seems really soft as I read thru all these threads. Especially since I am around 220 at this point.

That sux! Your Elka tech is another guy screwing up people's bikes IMO, there is no way in hell you can get proper SAG numbers with that spring rate! :angry: It happens far to often & by too many suspension company's/shops especially on VFR's. There seems to be a Bunch of Bogus Spring Rate Calculators out there that just have one incorrect number in the VFR's ratio formula that is messing most of them up! JamieDaugherty found a problem in the calculator he was using that provided these same (too) low rear spring rate numbers.

He basically installed a stock spring rate at 900 lbs(858 stock)!

I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

Just my opinion, but in looking at your numbers, I think your rear spring is still just a tad soft. A 1200# sounds like it would put you dead on the money.

That's interesting.

I've been trying to get my suspension properly fettled, and UnZud's premier suspension guru was of the opinion that my 900pound/inch shock spring (and damping) was too stiff for our roads. I'd already had the front springs changed from 0.95kg/mm ones to 0.90, and tha damping altered to match.

FWIW, I weigh ~190 poondz.

I completely agree with Pete That at 190 lbs you should be running at least a 19kg(1068 lb) rear spring which is what I run @190 lbs. It is probably a little soft for 190 lb riders.

Like many so called experts yours is wrong IMO!

Proper spring rate is a proper spring rate no matter the road conditions, damping adjustments are what's used to adjust to road surfaces in general.

:rolleyes:

BR

Thanks Kevin, much appreciated. I have the G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit and the Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve with some .95's on route to me. RaceTech recommended the Hi-Freq Rebound for whatever reason. They are pre-drilling for me as well.

Be sure to let us know how that set-up works for you! :fing02:

Kevin a couple questions if I may...

Did you have any trouble setting your oil level with the forks at an angle. I just had RaceTech tell me that the level was very important and the forks needed to be straight up to get it right. I plan on changing the valves and springs without removing the forks based on inspiration from this thread, can I do it you think?

Thanks Kevin.

Hi Kevin,

Sure, all you have to do is figure out where the proper level would be with the 43mm tubes at 25 deg angle vs straight up! So basically if you measure the high side of the angled fork oil in the tube it will read approximately 10mm high vs level tube, so just subtract 10mm from desired measured level and you should be right there IMO. :fing02:

Luigi,

How are you doing and how is the healing going? Your avatar explains a lot of it, just wanted an update on your condition.

Hope your doing great! :rolleyes:

BR