BiKenG

On 25/11/2017 at 10:34 AM, JZH said:

I've acquired a couple of spares over the years.  Shall I put one in the box with the shock link piece?

 

Ciao,

Very kind of you John, but I've found a new axle at decent price, so I'll not have to trouble you for one of yours, thanks anyway. Still need the suspension link though. 

Meanwhile, arranging to mount the wheel in the lathe and then also on the mill is making my head hurt.

9 hours ago, JZH said:

I measured my NC30 axle bolt at 186.71mm, measured from the top of the head.

Thanks for that. The RC axle bolt is about 206 long which explains why it looks too long in the NC axle. So in fact it IS too long. Rats :-(

I have determined that opening up the centre bore of the wheel to fit over the full length of axle is the way to go and I'm just working on a way to mount the wheel in the lathe in order to accomplish this. However, the relative lengths of axle have thrown up a problem.

If I insert an RC bolt into the NC axle, mount an RC wheel and a spacer, it is clear that the axle is nearly an inch too long. So either the RCs' wheel is much thinner, or their bolt is quite a bit longer and I suspect the latter. Anyone got an NC axle bolt they could measure?

1 hour ago, JZH said:

I am not sure if this has already been mentioned, but...Question: the NC30 axle is shorter than the RC36 axle, so will it work with the RC36 bearing carrier?  but is that because of the lack of cush drive, or because of the narrower bearing carrier on the NC30?  

 

I've got the triangular piece we spoke about in front of me now, but I still cannot find the conical spacer (assuming I have one).  You could probably turn a conical spacer on your lathe to help centre the axle and nut, which would sit inboard of the raised lip on the flat NC30 spacer--same effect.

 

Ciao,

I believe the NC axle will work in the RC36 S/A and I suspect the lack of cush drive is the reason for it being shorter. But you apparently do need to machine the axle slightly to shift it slightly left in order to align the wheel correctly. Mohawk is the expert on this and has it all figured out for when he did it on his bike.

In order to use the RC45 conical spacer, the axle needs to extend through the wheel as the spacer centres the wheel to that end of the axle. If I cut the axle shorter to allow the wheel to fit, the conical spacer won't be able to engage on it. The alternative is to enlarge the bore through the wheel so the axle fits through. But my current feeling is to cut down the axle and just use the 400 flat spacer.

Of course ti could all change tomorrow. 

11 hours ago, JZH said:

I think I've heard of someone welding up the lug holes in a 750 wheel, which shouldn't really be a big problem for a competent welder.  Possibly a Hawk GT guy--they're nuts, those boys.

 

Don't/didn't you have an RC45?  It sounds like it would be very useful to compare a Honda single-nut wheel with the RC36-II wheel you have.  Now that you mention it, I might have acquired a conical wheel spacer with my RC30 swing arm.  I'll have to check in the shed-o-wonder.

 

I can get you whatever measurements you need.  Which, exactly?

 

Ciao,

Yes I have an RC45, but apart from it being tucked away at the moment and hard to get to, I'm not sure I want go that route. Specifically I think it's because I have a couple of 400 spacers and hate the thought of not using one of those and buying something else instead. Unless someone else found they had an RC45 one available...

In fact, the raised ridge on the inside of the 400 spacer is an almost perfect fit into the outside of the RC36.2 wheel. Although the wheel has a tapered centre hole like the RC45. the 400 spacer is a snug fit. I reckon with the paint removed it wouldn't even need any machining for the 400 spacer that would grab the wheel nicely when the nut was tightened. So that's probably the route I'll take. I do need to machine out the inside end of the wheel centre bore (currently 50mm) to fit over the axle boss (needs 51mm) however and getting the wheel mounted that way around in the lathe will be interesting.

I did measure the axle and the PCDs are as follows:-

Drive pins = 85mm

Wheel studs = 100mm

Disc mount bolts = 110mm

I guess using the different PCDs makes sense for OEM, but if they were the same it would make this job a lot simpler.

Excellent info John (JZH) thanks. My concern at the moment is fitting an RC36.2 wheel to the NC30 axle. As you mentioned above, the axle is too large to fit through the wheel. So it's modify the wheel or shorten the axle. Since I'll need to modify the wheel anyway, I'll probably do both.

I will need to turn out the wheel's centre bore on the mount side to be a snug fit over that boss and also turn the outer edge of the bore so that the 400 'not cone' spacer fits nicely or I could use an RC45 cone spacer, if I had one. But I don't. I have a couple of 400 type spacers though so that's probably the way to go. Unless anyone has an RC45 cone spacer going spare? Ideally wanting to swap for a 400 one. 

As has been mentioned before, I will need to plug the original bolt holes in the outer surface of the wheel, but I could then make some large drive pins that would locate into the wheel's bolt holes in the inner mount surface and modify the axle flange to fit these pins at the 100mm PCD, as John has done above with actual wheel studs, although I'll mount my special drive pins instead. It's a pity Honda didn't use 100mm PCD for the drive pins. That would have been just soooo convenient.

Hmm, what's the disc mount hole PCD? If that was 100mm...

Looking at the pictures it looks slightly larger (damn), but I need to measure it to be sure. That would also be extremely convenient.

Next problem is how to mount the wheel in my lathe and that's assuming it's even big enough. Time to find out. 

On 03/06/2016 at 8:54 AM, Veefer800Canuck said:

I hope those 4 spot welds aren't going to be all that holds your axle together. I'm assuming it will get fully welded later, yes?

I had thought it could be welded all the way around the axle, but I now realise that's not really possible as the 'adapter' is pushed into the axle right up to the thread. So as far as I can see from the photos, holes must be drilled in the axle and the adapter welded to the axle just around each hole. Can't have too many holes, obviously. 

The only other way would be to cut the axle shorter and weld that shortened end to the adapter around the full circumference. The axle would just need shortening sufficiently to provide enough space for the weld. But making sure the adapter is pushed in to the correct depth would be trickier.

Anyone actually installed this adapter and could comment?

15 hours ago, JZH said:

 

I just fit my Ti sprocket-side M18 x 1.5 nut (used on my RC30 axle) onto my NC35.  Confirmed!

Surely you mean wheel side? The sprocket side uses M38 x 1.5 (or M35 if not single nut wheel fixing).

I took a chance and ordered the Ti wheel nut that was specified for the 400s but not the RC45. Should be here today, but good to know I made the right choice. 

I love Titanium. Here's the Triumph nut I just bought from compeng24. He is intending to produce Ti clips to go with them, but might be a month or 2.

In conjunction with Titan Classics conical spring washer this seems like a perfect solution for the driven side of the axle.

TC also offer a lot of other useful Ti stuff like h/bar lever pivots, rear wheel drive pins and steering stem nuts. Just have to wait a while till I can afford those.

Did I mention, I love Ti. 

11 hours ago, Mohawk said:

It's the piston area, so the number of makes a difference or the area to be exact. The crf rear caliper piston is 22mm driven by a 10mm M/C for a 4.84/1 ratio.

The RVF rear is 1x25mm & 1x27mm giving a ratio of 13.5/1 ratio, so will need a lot more throw to develop any pressure.

Yes of course it's the total area of pistons MOVING IN THE SAME DIRECTION. But assuming the same piston size, a single piston in a sliding caliper is EXACTLY the same as 2 pistons moving in opposition (i.e. fixed caliper). For the latter, the area you'd use for any calculation would only be for ONE piston. The sliding effect of the caliper means essentially the same amount of fluid has to be moved in each of these different designs. There are of course other considerations that make the sliding caliper less than optimal, but they're cheaper to make hence why we still see them being used.

I just bought a couple of CRF style master cylinders to try out. Only £6 each on eBay - new. I know, Chinese manufactured (and supplied), but you can't knock the price and I'm sure they will actually work as well as I need - as long as the size is suitable.

I've just ordered the Triumph wheel nut which at M38 x 1.5 is the correct size for the Honda's driven side axle nut. Although the Honda style nut is available from Titan Classics, I just hate the idea of having to bend a part just to make it do its job, especially if you want to be able to re-use it multiple times. Shame on Honda for employing such a crummy idea. The Triumph one however is castellated and with some drilling of the axle I'll be able to use the Triumph clip on it too.

Neither are flanged, but I don't see that as being a problem. There is supposed to be a spring/conical washer underneath that nut and using a flange type nut wouldn't obviate the need for that spring loading. But Titan Classics have those conical washers in Ti, so all's good. 

In fact TC also have the wheel nut R clip in Ti.

So the RC45 wheel nut is M18 x 1.5, but what about the NC30 and 35? I suspect they are the same, but I cannot seem to get any confirmation of that.

Looking further at axle nuts, it appears Ducati use M33, M38 or M48. So no matches there 

Hey keef, I see you're using Ducati (style) nuts on both ends of the axle. Is that because the nuts fit the Honda axle (in which case, which axle) or are you using a Ducati axle?

49 minutes ago, JZH said:

I can answer at least two of those questions, as I've been searching for titanium or stainless steel nuts for my RC30 axle recently.  The NC30/35 RHS nut fits my RC30 axle.  This is available in titanium from Titan Classics.  I actually bought it secondhand from someone on 400GreyBike, who had bought it for his NC35.  I'd guess the RC45 is the same as the RC30, but I'm not sure.

 

The M38 x 1.5 LHS nut is shared only with the Triumph Speed Triple and the like; Ducatis use a different thread pitch--1.25, I think.  This is actually my current headache, because I cannot find anything remotely affordable to replace this nut and retain the lock-wire or locking features of my corroded OEM nut.

 

Ciao,

 

 

I also think the RC45 uses the same thread on its axle bolt as the NC30 and 35. But I've not confirmed that 100% and I don't want to waste the money on a nice Ti nut if it's wrong.

Are you looking for the LH/driven side axle nut? That's the M38 x 1.5. Titan Classic have those that can be staked like the original, but buy from their website as it seems a bit cheaper than their eBay store.

If you don't want to stake the nut into the slot in the axle (like I don't) do what Mohawk did and drill the lip of the nut and the axle so the Ducati (or some other) clip can be used.

Maybe a silly question, but why did HRC use a LH thread for their large single wheel nut?

Also, do Ducati use LH or RH wheel nut thread and is it the same dia. and pitch as VFRRR and HRC?

Does a Ducati nut fit the M38 x 1.5 thread on the driven side of the axle?

Does the NC30/35 wheel nut fit the RC45. So is the thread on the end of the internal axle bolt the same for both bikes?

On 16/07/2014 at 3:33 AM, rc4six said:

There are different ways to go about it. I chose a way that I could use the parts I already had and I can easily obtain.I already had a Hawk GT spindle. This would be a direct bolt-on but it's a few millimeters short on the sprocket side. So I had my fabricator marry the Hawk GT's spindle and my VFR's spindle together. The Hawk's spindle has the inner spline that you would need for the inner wheel axle, which is used to hold the wheel onto the spindle. That inner axle may need to be extended, in my case it had to. It depends on how the two spindles are married. You'll need to source the inner axle, wheel nut base, wheel nut, and nut washer from an NC30, NC35, RC30, RC45, etc. Ebay UK is your best bet. Finally, the lug holes need to be heli-arced shut for the finished look then powdercoated. That's it.

Can I ask what you (rc4six) did with the VFR. It's a 3rd Gen wheel that is normally located and driven by the wheel mount studs and nuts - which are no longer used. I assume you used a 400 axle, but how did you match the wheel to the drive pins? Did you have to machine the back mount face of the wheel to accommodate the drive pins?

On 06/06/2016 at 12:51 PM, Mohawk said:

PS re the CRF250 M/C they only have a 10mm piston, so will work with a single piston caliper, but probably NOT well with that opposed piston caliper.

PPS, Chris I'm surprised at you. Single piston sliding caliper or twin opposing pistons, makes no difference. Only the piston diameter is relevant.

I have a small special caliper previously used on my RC45 which I hope to use on my 800 project. It's another small caliper with twin opposing pistons and I'm thinking of trying the CRF Master Cylinder also. I'm sure it would work well (enough).

I was hoping VFRRR has at least one more of these sets as I could really do with one for my forthcoming V4 project. No response to PM though. 

If he could let me know (and hopefully sell me one) I'd be grateful.

Well I've not had the opportunity to ride the same bike with chain and then with belt, so I can't say from experience (Larry could :-), but I have ridden chain drive bikes and belt drive bikes and I can't say I noticed any difference that I could put down to the different final drive methods. However, you will be correct that the lighter components will have an effect, but I'm sure they'll be too small to notice and why would feel be any different? As long as a chain is correctly adjusted so no actual slack when riding, or at least no more than a belt, there really can't be any great difference in feel. The current state of our potholed roads here in the UK is of far more importance to bikers than trying to judge infinitesimal changes in 'feel' of the drivetrain and in any case the crashing of the suspension on the dreadful roads would mask any actual differences anyway.

But when you get home the back end of the bike is still nice and clean. Well, at least not covered in chain lube. Wonderful. 

3 minutes ago, adkfinn said:

I'd be curious to see a kit price for this conversion for 5th and 6th gen's (pipe dream I know). Do you think there'd be a market for it that could tolerate the price tag? What do you think this mod would like performance wise on paper? Would the bike be measurably quicker or would all the benefits deliver on the 'feel' side of things only? I am intrigued by this idea and project. 

It shouldn't feel any different from a well lubricated and perfectly adjusted chain. The difference is that this feeling would never change and the rear of the bike would stay clean, neither of which can be achieved with a chain.

The problem is still whether or not it can be actually done which is all down to the available belts and distance between the sprockets/pulleys.

10 hours ago, JZH said:

Larry's swing arm is actually an HRC RC45 swing arm, IIRC, but someone with Larry's skills  and connections could probably extend a "standard" RC45 (or RC46?) swing arm if he was so inclined...

 

Ciao,

Sure, Larry's skills are unbounded and legendary.  

However, what are the lengths of the std. and HRC RC45 SSSAs, compared to those of the 750/800s. Surely if we want to really investigate the possibilities of fitting belts, we need to collate information about the lengths of all SSSAs (i.e. sprocket to sprocket distances) that might be involved. Only then can we really discover what is, is not or might be possible? All we currently know is that it didn't work for Larry's RC45, but I'm not even sure what S/A he was trying it on. Was it the std one or his HRC one. What I do know is they are different lengths and I've no idea how those lengths relate to the VFRs, yet the length is the crucial element in all this.

Could we perhaps start gathering the length data we need to look further into this?

I still live in hope that this can be solved.

To recap:-
Model : Sprockets : ratio : Chain(belt)
RC45 : 17/40 : 2.353 : ~110 (not exactly sure about original)
5th Gen : 17/43 : 2.529 :108
6/8th Gen : 16/43 : 2.687 : 110

Larry's : 30/76 : 2.533 : [155|172]

I understand the problems of min. belt radius and tensioner pulleys etc. and so we need to find an acceptable combination that will result in a suitable distance between the sprockets/pulleys.

Any reason not to use odd numbers of teeth?

Is the front 30T pulley at the belt's minimum radius, or could a 29 or even a 28 actually be used, even if not perfect? Surely, a slightly smaller radius would just reduce the life of the belt slightly? The tighter the radius the shorter the belt life. So such a small change would surely be acceptable if it's the only way to make it all possible. If a 30T is absolutely fine, I cannot believe a 29T would cause it to instantly snap.

Could a 31T or even a 32T front pulley be squeezed in there. I see that the 30 is tight, but the difference in actual radius would be small. Is there any possibility that this could be done?

Finally, the figures above support what I read elsewhere that the 5th Gen swingarm is about 25mm shorter than the later models and suggests that the 8th gen length is the same as the 6th Gen. So what about the longer 6/8th Gen swingarm? Would that solve the problem of belt length? It would certainly help.

I realise this doesn't help Larry with his RC45, but it might be the solution for VFR owners who really want the convenience of a belt - and having had a belt drive bike, I REALLY do.
 

5 hours ago, RC1237V said:

Make sure they didn't forget to fill up the final drive with oil - I think they drain it with the service. Also check the lug nuts. Maybe the shipping company dropped the new shaft on the way to your dealer? Unlikely but possible.....

There is absolutely no need to drain the final drive hub when replacing the shaft. The hub is completely sealed and not dismantled at all. It is removed and re-fitted intact when the shaft is replaced so the oil shouldn't be touched.

7 hours ago, soupbean said:

Just an update, rode about 200 mi last weekend to and from my " go to " riding location, south east Ohio. On the way there are 60-70 mph four lane roads . Still noticed the high speed vibration coming from the seat . Fairly relaxed pace till I get to my first destination, rt 550 .    After that didn't really notice the seat vibrations, but this is where I start picking up pace pretty good. Mine has the factory 1st-2nd gear power limitation , but in 3rd gear and above when you normally get that intense rush of speed at 5000 rpm , the thrust of speed is just not there. The motor seems to be running fine but it's almost like something is holding back the drive of the motor , maybe something binding or not turning freely. On the ride back home on 70+ mph freeway the high speed vibration from the seat was gone , but felt more of a rumble from the rear end , almost like a out of balance rear wheel . Got home , no final drive leaks so that's good , checked wheel weights , all are in place . Put up on center stand and wheel seems to be true & straight and turning freely with no binding. I've had this bike for five years and I'm so used to everything being normally very smooth. Engine , transmission , driveshaft , everything works together so smooth and seamlessly with this bike and freeway riding is very comfortable, great high speed touring bike . Something is definitely not the same as it was before the driveshaft replacement . Maybe replacement driveshaft has a larger rotating mass that isn't balanced properly , a installation pin or spline, something not lined up or not installed properly. Am going to check a couple other things this week on rear , after that will have to contact dealer . May send a email to Honda USA first .

The replacement shaft is largely identical to the original. It's just a small change to the bearings and how they are installed in the universal joint. I cannot see there's anything that can have noticeably changed the balance.

Any stiffness or drag would need to be MASSIVE to be able to actually slow the bike down. There's a lot of power going through that shaft and that much drag would likely cause it to tear itself apart.

I cannot see how the shaft could have been installed wrong. Either it's on the splines at both ends or it's not and the latter would prevent final assembly. The only issue could be if the cir-clip on the front end was not engaged, but it's very unlikely. Assembly is actually very straightforward (provided you have 3 hands :-)

I realise you won't want to hear this, but it is very easy to convince yourself there are strange noises etc when you are specifically looking for them and perhaps expecting them, when in fact it is just the same, but you'd got used to them and so no longer noticed. Obviously I cannot judge for myself what you say you are experiencing with your bike, but bear in mind how easy it can be to misinterpret how the bike feels.

Any vibration due to out of balance wheels tends to be lower frequency than the buzzyness one gets from the engine. Anything felt through the seat as you describe does sound like a badly balanced wheel, but a rear usually needs to be very badly balanced for it to be even noticeable. I find different road surfaces have a greater effect on vibrations I can feel than any minor imperfections in engine/drivetrain/wheel balance.